eyeball Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 Jesus was simply a humane being. Christ is a fantasy. I was asking how many people think Jesus would abuse a person's sexual relationships the way weaponeer did. Look, I'm not going to stand for someone beating me over the head, attacking my kids, raping my wife or attacking my country. Nor will I support Canada's military being implicated in a so-called war against a people that never attacked us in the first place. All that has been accomplished in the long run is that we've been placed in harm's way. We sent the military to Afghanistan to capture a criminal involved in a crime that no Afghani took part in in. Then we changed our tune and called it a War on Terror which then changed to the Global Struggle against Terrorism. Its obvious we're just making it up as we go now because we really never had a clear rational for getting involved and we certainly don't have any clear exit strategy. Yes its great that we've built some hospitals and schools in the short term but I don't think they'll last beyond a few years at best. We can push as much democracy out the back of a Hercules as we like in Afghanistan but I highly doubt it'll take root. Democratic civil society only evolved in our culture after hundreds of years of conflict, mass murder and a painfully slow dawning of enlightenment and humanity. There's a good reason why the term medieval is so commonly used in the context of Afghani culture. If Canadians want to use the military to go about the world spreading democracy and freedom then lets discuss that and come up with a clear plan for doing so. I suggest we don't start with the hardest nut to crack. We'd be better off fixing the easier countries first and then recruit them in the effort to fix the harder one's after we've had some practice and success. Otherwise we should focus on neutrality, stop interfering in other people's affairs, strenghten our own borders and country and let evolution take its course in regions and places like Afghanistan. The very fact we've been so ambiguous about our reasons for getting into this stupid war/struggle/police action whatever you call it, is what will finally kill Canadian's support for this mission. Its why I never had any to start with. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 (edited) So the Talaban are not Afganis, is that what you are saying. Or are you saying that the Talaban were not giving aid or comfort to AlQaeda? They weren't enabling them, shielding them? Or is it you really don't care if the Taleban regain control, up their country up to Al Qaeda again so another batch of murdering terrorists can be trained there to attack the US? And just because your head is in the sand doesn't mean we weren't a target before....not by a long shot. Now we could expell the Jews...that might get a gold star beside our name and shield us....because if being a target is what you are really concerned with.....you need to look for a final solution... Edited January 10, 2008 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
jbg Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 Jesus was simply a humane being. Christ is a fantasy. I was asking how many people think Jesus would abuse a person's sexual relationships the way weaponeer did.I am Jewish and happen to believe that he was a great human being. Your post is wretched, morally bankrupt and disgusting. I do not believe Jesus was the messiah but you have no basis to call Weaponeer a pervert, or to discuss Jesus is a graphic and disgusting manner. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Army Guy Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 Look, I'm not going to stand for someone beating me over the head, attacking my kids, raping my wife or attacking my country. Nor will I support Canada's military being implicated in a so-called war against a people that never attacked us in the first place. So what do you base your decision on becoming a CO on, or is it that you just disagree with this current operation in Afgan. The reason i ask is becuase your above statement rules out many of the traditional excuses for becoming a CO. Nor will I support Canada's military being implicated in a so-called war against a people that never attacked us in the first place Does that mean you agree with the Talibans decision to harbour those responsiable for 9/11 ? Do you believe terrorist should have a safe sancturary to hide, train, plot, and carry out thier attacks without fear of retribution? Just what evidance do you have that not one Afganis national was involved ? The US and NATO has already proven to the UN assembly that the AFganis government at the time was guilty of harbouring Bin Ladin and his merry band of thugs and terrorists...it was also proven that the Taliban were aware that AL quiada had serveral training camps in which this scumbags conducted training for thier inter national terror campiagn, and allowed them to exist, even assisted them in training, allowed them to collect funding, ...So although no Afganis took part in the actual terror attack they are complict in harbouring, training , and providing protection to them.... Yes its great that we've built some hospitals and schools in the short term but I don't think they'll last beyond a few years at best. We can push as much democracy out the back of a Hercules as we like in Afghanistan but I highly doubt it'll take root. With the Afgan mission well past it's 6 th year. every hospital, school and other projects we constructed are still there...and still operating....so much for the couple of year theory...Alot of Canadians think the way you do, i'll doubt it'll will take root, there is no way it's going to work , take a look at history...the mission is doomed.... what a load of crap.... You have no more proof of it's failure than i do showing how it is going to suceed unless you have a cyrstal ball and know for a fact then all your doing is speculating...the same as those that are on the mission, they believe it's going to work and only time will say for sure... So when Canadians sit down for supper tonight, they should ask themselfs "what price would you pay for our current freedoms" then they should ask if they had the chance to help another nation to have similar rights and freedoms would they....and what would they be willing to pay for such a gift.... So as a CO your nation has not asked you to fight or even perticapte in a support role... there are enough men and women in uniform now that are volunteering to do that job for you, for all of us.....all your asked is to send your 2 cents out of every tax dollar you send to support them and the mission...So that our nation can give this gift to the Afganis people... But like yourself, and many other Canadians we have said no fing way...it's to much money...are we really that cheap... If Canadians want to use the military to go about the world spreading democracy and freedom then lets discuss that and come up with a clear plan for doing so. Yes more discussion, it seems our generation does alot of that....much like we discussed Rwanda, by the time we made up our minds it was over and thousands were dead...hell we are still discussing Darfur and how many have died...Canada as a nation has been doing these types of operations for years in fact we are reconginzed world wide as excellant peace keepers and peace makers...something so many canadians are proud of...until they see how much it will cost....then we change our minds... The very fact we've been so ambiguous about our reasons for getting into this stupid war/struggle/police action whatever you call it, is what will finally kill Canadian's support for this mission. Its why I never had any to start with. Thats because you have failed to do any research on the topic, you've already made up your mind...it will fail...there for it's a waste of time....not worth our effort... So why is it that most Canadian soldiers that serve in Afgan don't see it that way....They see the good we are doing , they see progress, they see what most canadians don't... hope,a chance for peace, a hope for a better future. and they are willing to risk everything to give them that...including thier lives...now what's that about your 2 cents again.... But hey, they don't have a hockey team, or national beer....piss on them...they are not worth it...them mid evil goat herding bunch of camel riders... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
M.Dancer Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 Eyeball's sort of position of CO reminds me of the position that Canadian, British and commonwealth communists took concerning the war against the Axis prior to the summer of 41. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
White Doors Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 Eyeball's sort of position of CO reminds me of the position that Canadian, British and commonwealth communists took concerning the war against the Axis prior to the summer of 41. You are showing your age.. Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
M.Dancer Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 You are showing your age.. Not really. I could have simply read Churchill's History of the Second World War last week....but instead I re-read the volumes last year......I will only be 50 this October Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 I am Jewish and happen to believe that he was a great human being. Your post is wretched, morally bankrupt and disgusting. I do not believe Jesus was the messiah but you have no basis to call Weaponeer a pervert, or to discuss Jesus is a graphic and disgusting manner. You didn't think Weaponeer's post was disgusting? I also never called him a pervert. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 So the Talaban are not Afganis, is that what you are saying. Or are you saying that the Talaban were not giving aid or comfort to AlQaeda? They weren't enabling them, shielding them? No, no and no. Or is it you really don't care if the Taleban regain control, up their country up to Al Qaeda again so another batch of murdering terrorists can be trained there to attack the US? Of course I care. And just because your head is in the sand doesn't mean we weren't a target before....not by a long shot. My head is not in the sand, and we were not a target of Al Qaeda until our snipers were involved in action in Afghanistan under US command. Now we could expell the Jews...that might get a gold star beside our name and shield us....because if being a target is what you are really concerned with.....you need to look for a final solution... That sort of violence would only begat more violence Morris. We'd be far better off applying sanctions against countries that continue to aid and abet dictators and despots. Like the House of Saud, Saddam Hussien, Mushareff, the list goes on and on and on. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 So what do you base your decision on becoming a CO on, Star Trek. The Prime Directive. Letting nature take its course. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Topaz Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 So what do you base your decision on becoming a CO on, or is it that you just disagree with this current operation in Afgan. The reason i ask is becuase your above statement rules out many of the traditional excuses for becoming a CO.Does that mean you agree with the Talibans decision to harbour those responsiable for 9/11 ? Do you believe terrorist should have a safe sancturary to hide, train, plot, and carry out thier attacks without fear of retribution? Just what evidance do you have that not one Afganis national was involved ? The US and NATO has already proven to the UN assembly that the AFganis government at the time was guilty of harbouring Bin Ladin and his merry band of thugs and terrorists...it was also proven that the Taliban were aware that AL quiada had serveral training camps in which this scumbags conducted training for thier inter national terror campiagn, and allowed them to exist, even assisted them in training, allowed them to collect funding, ...So although no Afganis took part in the actual terror attack they are complict in harbouring, training , and providing protection to them.... With the Afgan mission well past it's 6 th year. every hospital, school and other projects we constructed are still there...and still operating....so much for the couple of year theory...Alot of Canadians think the way you do, i'll doubt it'll will take root, there is no way it's going to work , take a look at history...the mission is doomed.... what a load of crap.... You have no more proof of it's failure than i do showing how it is going to suceed unless you have a cyrstal ball and know for a fact then all your doing is speculating...the same as those that are on the mission, they believe it's going to work and only time will say for sure... So when Canadians sit down for supper tonight, they should ask themselfs "what price would you pay for our current freedoms" then they should ask if they had the chance to help another nation to have similar rights and freedoms would they....and what would they be willing to pay for such a gift.... So as a CO your nation has not asked you to fight or even perticapte in a support role... there are enough men and women in uniform now that are volunteering to do that job for you, for all of us.....all your asked is to send your 2 cents out of every tax dollar you send to support them and the mission...So that our nation can give this gift to the Afganis people... But like yourself, and many other Canadians we have said no fing way...it's to much money...are we really that cheap... Yes more discussion, it seems our generation does alot of that....much like we discussed Rwanda, by the time we made up our minds it was over and thousands were dead...hell we are still discussing Darfur and how many have died...Canada as a nation has been doing these types of operations for years in fact we are reconginzed world wide as excellant peace keepers and peace makers...something so many canadians are proud of...until they see how much it will cost....then we change our minds... Thats because you have failed to do any research on the topic, you've already made up your mind...it will fail...there for it's a waste of time....not worth our effort... So why is it that most Canadian soldiers that serve in Afgan don't see it that way....They see the good we are doing , they see progress, they see what most canadians don't... hope,a chance for peace, a hope for a better future. and they are willing to risk everything to give them that...including thier lives...now what's that about your 2 cents again.... But hey, they don't have a hockey team, or national beer....piss on them...they are not worth it...them mid evil goat herding bunch of camel riders... The Taliban did have OBL there but when the US said give him up or we'll attack, the Taliban decided to but the US invaded. The Taliban had been in talks with Cheney and the US oil companies about a pipline through their country and this was early 2001. When the Taliban came back and said no, that peeved off Cheney and the Oil companies. 9/11 and this war on terrorism has the US hands all over it. The US wants control over the Middle-East and OBL wanted the US military . There's too may unanswered questions with 9/11 and in time we will have them. How can this government expect Canadians to back this war, when the Afghanistan government is full of corruption and millions of Canadians money that goes to this so called corrupt gov't doesn't go were its suppose to go. I would really like to know how the soldiers really feel but aren't they suppose to be silent about their views one way or the other? As a US general say just before the invasion of Afghanistan, what's the sense of HAVING a military if you don't USE THEM. Why isn't Canada and the US in Darfur, no oil? Quote
White Doors Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 Star Trek. The Prime Directive. Letting nature take its course. I see. So you view Arabs as an inferior, less developed species? nice! lol Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
M.Dancer Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 No, no and no.Of course I care. My head is not in the sand, and we were not a target of Al Qaeda until our snipers were involved in action in Afghanistan under US command. That sort of violence would only begat more violence Morris. We'd be far better off applying sanctions against countries that continue to aid and abet dictators and despots. Like the House of Saud, Saddam Hussien, Mushareff, the list goes on and on and on. Why on earth do you think we were not targets? Were the Britsih not targets when aircrafts parts rained on Lockerbie....were we not used when the millenium bomber wanted to strike? ...and why does this list you so kindly supply which goes on and on contain nations we are friendly with and the one dead dictator we were not. Are you now saying you supported sacntions against Iraq? I thought sanctions against iraq were bad? What made you change your mind? Wouldn't it be more advantageous to apply sanctions to our enemies? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 I see. So you view Arabs as an inferior, less developed species?nice! lol I don't think they will want to give up all the science and technology we gave them.. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 I see. So you view Arabs as an inferior, less developed species?nice! lol No I'm afraid you don't see. I view the practice of aiding and abeting dictators as being primitive and criminal. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) Why on earth do you think we were not targets? We hadn't been supplying any dictators with weapons or looking the other way when they terrorized their people or their neighbors with them. Were the Britsih not targets when aircrafts parts rained on Lockerbie.... No, the UK just happened to be underneath the target when it blew up. were we not used when the millenium bomber wanted to strike? Are you suggesting the DND assited the millenium bomber? That's certainly news to me. ...and why does this list you so kindly supply which goes on and on contain nations we are friendly with and the one dead dictator we were not. Why are we being friendly to military dictatorships while also trying to spread peace and democracy? You can only have it both ways for so long and I think we've tried to have it long past the point we should have. The likelihood that we have become a target proves that. I notice other countries that became targets have backpeddled on their willingness to continue fighting, I'd like to think we could learn from that before its too late. Wouldn't it be more advantageous to apply sanctions to our enemies? No, I think it would be better if we didn't make any enemies to start with and with friends like your's... Are you now saying you supported sacntions against Iraq? I thought sanctions against iraq were bad? What made you change your mind? I didn't say anything about these things so why are you? Edited January 11, 2008 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 Are you suggesting the DND assited the millenium bomber? That's certainly news to me. You are being facetious. Ressam was born in Algeria. He entered Canada in 1994 with a forged French passport. When immigration officials at the Montreal airport questioned him, he applied for political asylum, claiming persecution in Algeria. After settling in Montreal, he became a small-time criminal. At some point, he was recruited into al-Qaeda. After not attending his hearing for political asylum, his application for refugee status was denied and a warrant issued for his arrest. He evaded deportation by obtaining a passport using a false name, "Benni Noris."Military training in Afghanistan Ressam used the passport to travel to the Khalden training camp in Afghanistan in 1998.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Ressam Does it matter to you? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 Why are we being friendly to military dictatorships while also trying to spread peace and democracy? Name names Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
weaponeer Posted January 11, 2008 Report Posted January 11, 2008 Christ was a common sense sort of guy- sure he would turn the other cheek in order to make friends if it was possible...but he would not allow abuse - he would not keep turning the cheek till you knocked out his teeth - the man was a just revolutionary and did advocate the use of the sword when all else failed - IF we are to have a military in Canada then have a military - have the best equipped. Have the best trained - have the best attitude and moral compass that guides us towards justice and peace. If one is to be a peace maker, one must have the abilty to wage war with such percise and deadly intensity - that no one dares offend. Much like the true peace maker - that you respect because if you don't - he is capable of dropping you with a single swift and powerful punch. That is my belief - The nation needs a powerful and above all - A TRUELY HONOURABLE military...if there is no honour - then we may as well sub-contract the Pakistani military to do our bidding and desolve our force. "A TRUELY HONOURABLE military" So you are say we in the CF are not honourable!! You wonder why I say get a clue!! I work with people every day, have been to and in shitholes you can't imagine with some of the most honourable people in the world. People who have done things for this country that you all will never know..... Quote
eyeball Posted January 12, 2008 Report Posted January 12, 2008 You are being facetious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Ressam Does it matter to you? Does it matter that he tricked our system, I suppose. What really matters is that he still got caught, without the use of the military I might add. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 12, 2008 Report Posted January 12, 2008 Name names I already did. Canada joined the coalition of the willing, when it supports thugs like Mushareff so do 'we'. Are you now saying you supported sacntions against Iraq? I thought sanctions against iraq were bad? What made you change your mind? These other things like The Millenium Bomber, have nothing to do with Canadians paying for offensive military deployments abroad with war bonds so lets focus on DND spending instead. Many Canadians including myself strongly and conscientously object to the military being used in their name for offensive military actions abroad like the invasion of Afghanistan that we've participated in for example. I suggest war bonds be used to ensure that conscientous objectors are not forced to fund/support these actions. Objectors wouldn't have to resort to tax revolts, and supporters would still have the opportunity to demonstrate their support. Its a win win for everybody. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
weaponeer Posted January 12, 2008 Report Posted January 12, 2008 (edited) I already did. Canada joined the coalition of the willing, when it supports thugs like Mushareff so do 'we'.These other things like The Millenium Bomber, have nothing to do with Canadians paying for offensive military deployments abroad with war bonds so lets focus on DND spending instead. Many Canadians including myself strongly and conscientously object to the military being used in their name for offensive military actions abroad like the invasion of Afghanistan that we've participated in for example. I suggest war bonds be used to ensure that conscientous objectors are not forced to fund/support these actions. Objectors wouldn't have to resort to tax revolts, and supporters would still have the opportunity to demonstrate their support. Its a win win for everybody. NO many Canadians do not share your views. Canadians are smart people, when you explain it to them, give them the facts they get it. I am tired of idiots who have never been to Afganistan, tell me why we are there. I have done two 6 month tours there, have you??? Real men pick up weapons and defend their wives, children, parents and those they hold dear. They will fight to protect their country, their land their homes. That is what real men do!!! We are not in Afganistan on offensive operations, we are not there to conqour them, to make them part of our Empire, to enslave their people and rape their resources. We are there because of 9-11. We are there because world governments have failed for years to deal with radical Islam. 9-11 was an attack on the free world, the fact it happend in NYC is of no consequense. If it has been in Paris, Berlin, Ottawa or Brisbane, the result would have been the same. We are in Afghanistan to hunt down and destroy the tailbs & AQ, to prevent the place from being used as a base of operations for terrorism. Had the talibs handed over the AQ they had, this would not have happened. Humans are animals, preditory animals!! Like Lions or Leopards we compete for food, resources etc, that is where war comes from. War is a reality of the human experience!! It will never go away no more than cancer, crime or AIDS will. Nobody likes those things!!! Rational peoples know this fact and take actions to midagate it, that is why we have a military. We have a military to defend our land, our people and our friends around the world. We in the military are asked to do evil things, bad things at times in order to do good. My grandfathers both served in WW2, and both had to do some aweful things to free the world from Hitler. They took responsibility, they did their duty, as we do now. They had to make deals with the devils, as do we today. Sombody has to take responsibility, somebody has to make the very hard decisions that need to be made, to do the very hard and cruel things that sometimes need to be done. And then, those people, like my grandfathers, have to live with what they had to do. Those are the people I respect. You see, we are all CO when it come to war, but some take responsibility and step up!! The USA is not a bully, not an Empire. They are a force for good in this world, they are the people who have fought and freed billions around this world. They are a superpower, and with that they have responsibilities in the world that we and other nations do not do not. We are supposed to have International Law, who the hell enforces that?? Where would we be if the USA was not a superpower, or withdrew from the world. Then what?? Edited January 12, 2008 by weaponeer Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 12, 2008 Report Posted January 12, 2008 Does it matter that he tricked our system, I suppose. What really matters is that he still got caught, without the use of the military I might add. An equally as important no friend of his can be trained in Afghanistan with impunity again......the military has seen to that. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted January 12, 2008 Report Posted January 12, 2008 I already did. Canada joined the coalition of the willing, when it supports thugs like Mushareff so do 'we'.These other things like The Millenium Bomber, have nothing to do with Canadians paying for offensive military deployments abroad with war bonds so lets focus on DND spending instead. Many Canadians including myself strongly and conscientously object to the military being used in their name for offensive military actions abroad like the invasion of Afghanistan that we've participated in for example. I suggest war bonds be used to ensure that conscientous objectors are not forced to fund/support these actions. Objectors wouldn't have to resort to tax revolts, and supporters would still have the opportunity to demonstrate their support. Its a win win for everybody. 2 points. How does Canada support those counties? I think you are blowing here 2) As already shown you are not a concientious objector, you merely object politically. You are free to suggest what ever you want just as the legal government ios free to listen to you or ignore you. I suggest they ignore you. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
jbg Posted January 13, 2008 Report Posted January 13, 2008 The Taliban did have OBL there but when the US said give him up or we'll attack, the Taliban decided to but the US invaded. The Taliban had been in talks with Cheney and the US oil companies about a pipline through their country and this was early 2001. When the Taliban came back and said no, that peeved off Cheney and the Oil companies. 9/11 and this war on terrorism has the US hands all over it.Post-invasion, where's the pipeline? Is this like the six-land highway connecting Mexico with Canada that conspiracy theorists says is being built secretly? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.