Gun Control

[Pliny]

My rifle fell out of my boat when I was duck hunting. Oh well......

Gangs in Ottawa are a real problem.

[ScottSA]

My rifle fell out of my boat when I was duck hunting. Oh well......

Gangs in Ottawa are a real problem.

You hunt ducks with a rifle? Just how good a shot are you anyway?

[Pliny]

You hunt ducks with a rifle? Just how good a shot are you anyway?

The rifle was in case someone tried to steal my ducks.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Pliny

[Charles Anthony]

The two previous posts in this thread have been deleted.

One of those posts lay outside the bounds of civilized discussion by overtly describing gratuitous lethal violence. The second post quoted the first.

No other posts have been deleted nor edited in this thread.

[jbg]

One of those posts lay outside the bounds of civilized discussion by overtly describing gratuitous lethal violence. The second post quoted the first.

Hard to imagine anyone being "uncivilized" on this forum.

[myata]

Yes, and since registration, registered long guns have accounted for 2%.

In the year that it was established (was it even a full year? who knows). Good job echoing Harpers propaganda, but what if you tried an intelligent discussion for a change?

I would keep hand gun registration.

And why, I wonder? The only argument put forward against long gun registry by Harper's crowd so far, was its efficiency (see below for more on that). A buddy you quoted earlier was having issues with the handgun registration, for the same reason. Why then keep one, but not the other? Why not do away with it completly? What's the underlying logic? Or is it, to do away with it (gun control that is) completely, at some future time maybe?

I've already showed you that a similar tough mandatory sentence policy has helped reduce viloent crime in Florida by 25% since implemented in 1999.

What you forgot to mention is the level of gun crime in Florida prior, and after, implementation of these measures. I suspect it's still many multiples of Canada's. So should we really aspire to become more like Florida? Adopt their measures and strategies? Become more like them?

You see, this is my real beef with the Harper's crowd. It's not what they think or believe. It's that they'll never say it out in the open. Never have an intelligent discussion. Reduce it to slogans, confusion, and attack ads instead.

Let's consider the registry for example. By far the most talk one'd ever hear from this government on the subject is "one billion dollars". The cost of implementation. Forget that it was a national level project requiring cooperation of all provinces. Forget daunting technical challenges associated with implementing a national data system. E.g. till this day there's no national health care information network in Canada, and one could only guess when it could be build and how much it'd cost. Forget even the fact, that just the interest on the debt run up by the previous conservative government must be by now counting in the tens of billions of dollars, with zero, zilch, nada, to show at all.

And now, finally, unfortunate as it is, the billion dollars is spent, gone. No valiant assault on the registry will bring it back. The only intelligent conversation one can have at this point could be about operating costs. In the sense, do the advantages provided by the system, like having a comprehensive gun control covering all types of gun for the first time in this country's history, like being able to detect when somebody is building a stockpile of weapons, like being able to check if the place already has a stockpile of weapons before police go in, like being able to collect weapons if individuals license is revoked, like being able to find out almost instantly if the gun abandonded at a crime scene belongs to somebody, etc, etc, all these advantages are worth the cost of operation. And what btw is the cost of operating the registry now, that its fully implemented? How many times has it been used so far this year? How much sense does it make to spend money to dismantle an operating system that already serves the public, as opposed to keeping it running and making it more efficient?

Try to find answers on Harpers' government "information". I'm not going to waste my time though. I've seen enough already (death penaly; Kyoto; transparency; this gun control) to know with confidence that open transparent dialog to determine the best policies and strategies for the country is not something this crowd is interested in.

[MontyBurns]

gun registry = crap

[noahbody]

In the year that it was established (was it even a full year? who knows). Good job echoing Harpers propaganda, but what if you tried an intelligent discussion for a change?

It doesn't say "in the year it was established," it says "since." The release is from November 2007. Knowing that, would you say we should spend millions targeting registered long gun owners or should we focus on the criminal segment of our society?

And why, I wonder?

From a statistical perspective 26% of handgun homicide are committed with registered guns verses 2% of long gun homicide being committed with registered guns. You also need to consider the probablity of the type of gun being used in crime and the nature of the gun.

What you forgot to mention is the level of gun crime in Florida prior, and after, implementation of these measures.

Actually, this is exactly what I mentioned. And it is working.

I suspect it's still many multiples of Canada's. So should we really aspire to become more like Florida? Adopt their measures and strategies? Become more like them?

Florida has chosen to spend its money on tough mandatory sentences. As a result, violent gun crime has decreased by 25% since 1999. How many crimes has registration prevented in Canada? Zero. Which do you think is better for a safe society and a better use of taxpayer money?

Edited December 19, 2007 by noahbody

[Moxie]

gun registry = crap

Yep it was yet another waste of our taxdollars by the idiots who blame a piece of metal for the actions of a human. Guns don't kill, people kill.

I remember a quote from a book that basically stated once the Government unarms it's people they become oppressors of those people. One only has to look at the facist oppressive far left to see they could easily rule this country one day. I want my rifles should that day ever come to be.

[myata]

... targeting registered long gun owners or should we focus on the criminal segment of our society?

Yep, registered long gun owners, like Montreal shooter, like Dawson shooter, like OC Transpo shooter, like at least two family suicide shooters in Ottawa this year that are still fresh on my memory.

From a statistical perspective 26% of handgun homicide are committed with registered guns verses 2% of long gun homicide being committed with registered guns. You also need to consider the probablity of the type of gun being used in crime and the nature of the gun.

Many (all of the mentioned) long gun crimes involve multiple victims. In the final analysis, long guns are responsible for 30% of murders, and if they are left out of control, there's no point in pretending that this country has anywhere near comprehensive gun control.

Florida has chosen to spend its money on tough mandatory sentences.

As of now, Florida's murder rate is 1,129 with 18 million of population (from your link). For the whole Canada, 2006 it's 605 (Stats Canada). Do the math. Do we really want to be like Florida?

How many crimes has registration prevented in Canada? Zero. Which do you think is better for a safe society and a better use of taxpayer money?

As I already said, I'll take the word of police on the usablity of the registry. That you still fail to answer is how much of taxpayers many it'll cost to keep it going. Against the cost of keeping five (5!) time more prisoners, for the Florida solution to work - what would that cost to a taxpayer, ever wondered?Incarceration rate US, Incarceration rate Canada. Combined with 5 times higher crime rate too. Looks like a worthy model to follow, in your (and Harpers) view at least.

[Wilber]

I remember a quote from a book that basically stated once the Government unarms it's people they become oppressors of those people. One only has to look at the facist oppressive far left to see they could easily rule this country one day. I want my rifles should that day ever come to be.

Even though I am not a fan of the registry, I also believe that is crap. The government only has the power to do what the police and military will enforce. Democracy and freedom are our tradition. It's what we believe in as a people. Cops and soldiers have no more wish to live in a totalitarian state than you. They join to serve and defend their fellow citizens, not to oppress them.

[myata]

I remember a quote from a book that basically stated once the Government unarms it's people they become oppressors of those people. One only has to look at the facist oppressive far left to see they could easily rule this country one day. I want my rifles should that day ever come to be.

Thank you. I think you aren't alone there, and many of Harpers supporters cherish the same freedom loving views. Along with dislike of others marital choices, somehow, but that's a different question. If only they had your courage to state it openly in public.

[BubberMiley]

One only has to look at the facist oppressive far left to see they could easily rule this country one day. I want my rifles should that day ever come to be.

What are you going to do with rifles in the face of an elected "facist" government?

[Moonlight Graham]

Another Day, another anonymous shooting by an individual who's snapped, and git themselves a high-powered rifle.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22174890/

I say enough is enough... and it shows why Canada must not slack off on more gun control legislation.

Why does this government want to repeal the Gun licensing registry? Because it is "tough on crime?" How is that helpful? It sounds like more American-style ideas coming from our current government, who show in so many ways now their intentions to make Canada's laws the same as in the United States?

I say F the NRA...

I agree that tough gun laws are important. Thank God we don't have "the right to bear arms" written into our constitution like the U.S., mainly because we are not a country stemming from revolution or supressed by tyranny.

But the gun registry is a good idea in principle, but it just doesn't work. Its very expensive, and it really wouldn't do a ton of good compared to the cost. I'd use that money to keep fighting illegal gun control.

[guyser]

Florida has chosen to spend its money on tough mandatory sentences. As a result, violent gun crime has decreased by 25% since 1999

Florida has castle doctrine laws which may skew the results. It basically says, IIRC, should you feel threatened you may shoot to kill. It does not have to be in your house, nor on your property. I doubt this country wants that.

Joe Horn got off. How? I have no idea. I dont think he should have, in fact he should be in jail right now along with the crap birds who burglarized his neighbours.

Do we want that?

How many crimes has registration prevented in Canada? Zero.

Can you say that safely? How do we/you know that?

[myata]

Its very expensive, and it really wouldn't do a ton of good compared to the cost. I'd use that money to keep fighting illegal gun control.

OK, are you just repeating it after Mr Harper, or you actually know the cost of operating the registry now that its up and running? For the good that it can do, see above. For example police could have been alerted to that Dawson guy who just kept on buying powerful guns - for entertainment, presumably?

Then, this government isn't very forthcoming with that illegal gun control either. See the case of a proposed policy to mark imported guns, that was supposed to simplify identification of illegal guns and was also recommended by the police. It was quietly abandaned by the government, with no explanation or comments.

Finally, mandatory sentencing isn't free either. We'll need more jails, and a lot more jails. Prison population per capita in the States is about 5 times that of Canada. Is anybody telling us how much it's going to cost? And what is a better solution? Gun control, less guns in the public, plus specific targeted measures aimed at addressing specific incidents of violent crime wherever they develop, or loose gun ownership, supertight sentencing, 4 times more prisons, and X times more violent crime?

[akhmel]

OK, are you just repeating it after Mr Harper, or you actually know the cost of operating the registry now that its up and running? For the good that it can do, see above. For example police could have been alerted to that Dawson guy who just kept on buying powerful guns - for entertainment, presumably?

I don't get it. How does buying more powerful weapons make one a potential killer? Did you do some research on the subject? Are you saying that the majority of the killers have a lot of weapons? If so, prove it. And have you ever heard of gun collection?

Gun control, less guns in the public, plus specific targeted measures aimed at addressing specific incidents of violent crime wherever they develop, or loose gun ownership, supertight sentencing, 4 times more prisons, and X times more violent crime?

I don't agree that more jail time is the answer, but gun guntrol is definetly not either. Why is it that countries that have lax gun laws have lower crimes than countries that have strict gun laws?

Also, after the gun registry has been implemented, the murder rate has increased. So, how is it working? So, you're supporting a registry that is killing more people.

And as far as your examples are concerned (Dawson, Montreal shooting), this just proves even more that the gun registry doesn't work. Thanks!

[M.Dancer]

Why is it that countries that have lax gun laws have lower crimes than countries that have strict gun laws?

Why is that clanger still in circulation?

Does Japan have higher crime than Italy? Does Canada have more or less violent crime per capita than the US?

Edited December 20, 2007 by M.Dancer

[Wilber]

For example police could have been alerted to that Dawson guy who just kept on buying powerful guns - for entertainment, presumably?

The "Dawson guy's" gun was registered. What's your point other than you believe that a registry could prevent all these crimes it hasn't prevented?

[akhmel]

The "Dawson guy's" gun was registered. What's your point other than you believe that a registry could prevent all these crimes it hasn't prevented?

Duh! A time machine should be implemented in the gun registry! That darn Harper for not using technology!

[noahbody]

The "Dawson guy's" gun was registered. What's your point other than you believe that a registry could prevent all these crimes it hasn't prevented?

He actually had three guns all registered. It's not the best example of a multiple murder involving a long gun, because he never fired the shotgun. He only used the handguns he had.

[Moonlight Graham]

OK, are you just repeating it after Mr Harper, or you actually know the cost of operating the registry now that its up and running? For the good that it can do, see above. For example police could have been alerted to that Dawson guy who just kept on buying powerful guns - for entertainment, presumably?

I like the idea of a gun registry, i'm just concerned about its effectiveness. I guess we'll just have to give it time so we can gather some evidence of whether its working or not.

[myata]

The "Dawson guy's" gun was registered. What's your point other than you believe that a registry could prevent all these crimes it hasn't prevented?

I do not just "believe" it. It could have, and will prevent many crimes, if and when the right policies are implemented. It'll take time and effort. Nothing comes in the world perfect.

Your dislike of gun control, on the hand, is little more than pure "belief" as so far you failed to prove in any remotely rational way how's spending a very modest amount to keep a useful gun control tool going is so terribly wrong, while investing massively into building more prisons, with lax gun control is going to save money and result in less crime, even though all the data cited so many times shows that this approach simply isn't working.

Isn't it quite obvious by now that for you folks the dislike of gun control is purely ideological? There's no rational substance to it, other than "I don't believe". As I don't believe in climate change, I don't believe that the others should be able to marry who they want, that dinosaurs walked the Earth 65 million years ago?

[akhmel]

I do not just "believe" it. It could have, and will prevent many crimes, if and when the right policies are implemented. It'll take time and effort. Nothing comes in the world perfect.

Your dislike of gun control, on the hand, is little more than pure "belief" as so far you failed to prove in any remotely rational way how's spending a very modest amount to keep a useful gun control tool going is so terribly wrong, while investing massively into building more prisons, with lax gun control is going to save money and result in less crime, even though all the data cited so many times shows that this approach simply isn't working.

Well, please show data that the gun registry is working. Just because it could have worked isn't good enough. The only "right policies" you've suggested are that the police should pay close attention to the people who buy a lot of guns, when it hasn't been proven that homicides are involved with people who buy a lot of guns. If there's more, please tell me what other policies should be implemented.

Isn't it quite obvious by now that for you folks the dislike of gun control is purely ideological? There's no rational substance to it, other than "I don't believe". As I don't believe in climate change, I don't believe that the others should be able to marry who they want, that dinosaurs walked the Earth 65 million years ago?

Swtizerland and a city in Georgia have mandatory gun possession and they have very rare violent crimes. When UK and Australia had their gun ban, overall crime went WAY up. And I must say once again, ever since the gun registry was implemented in this country, we've seen an INCREASE in shootings. It isn't that we don't believe, facts show they don't work.

[jbg]

Swtizerland and a city in Georgia have mandatory gun possession and they have very rare violent crimes. When UK and Australia had their gun ban, overall crime went WAY up. And I must say once again, ever since the gun registry was implemented in this country, we've seen an INCREASE in shootings. It isn't that we don't believe, facts show they don't work.

That would make sense since law-abiding people would tend to turn in their guns; criminals would not.