Conservatives bringing back death penalty for Canadians abroad

[capricorn]

Obviously, opposition parties are incensed over the handling of the Smith case and the direction taken by the Conservatives. In that case, shouldn't we expect a bill from the opposition or a private member's bill to open debate on this issue in the House of Commons. Or is the opposition content to simply continue hammering the Conservatives on this question? If the opposition is serious about wanting a debate then they should use the mechanism open to it to force a debate.

[myata]

"Were we to intervene, it would very quickly become a question of whether we are prepared to repatriate a double-murderer to Canada," he said."

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/AL...QVm85xw8v4IsM5w

That's a hypothetical situation and they could have easily brought the repatriation issue at the time. It's got nothing to do whatsoever with the issue in question. That's another thing I don't like about them Harper people - loading a pile of BS and pretending nobody sees it.

[myata]

The people of Canada should of had a voice regarding the Death Penalty, if forums are an example of the wishes of the people I'd say it's sixty percent against and forty percent for it. Personally, Canada's shameful and dismal record of incarcerating innocent people for murder speaks volumns.

According to Ottawa Metro today, the max for death penalty is in Alberta with around 30%. Ontario 20%, Quebec and east coast 17%.

I agree with you though that the honest thing would be to start a public debate. It doesn't appear that their transparency stretches as far as bringing their views into the open and defending them in a public debate. It falls into opposition's lap now to not let them off the hook. This is a matter of principle not gaining point by some trick.

Edited November 6, 2007 by myata

[jefferiah]

Exactly. Canadians elect their government (including PM) to support and defend the laws of this country.

And their jurisdiction over those laws ends at our borders.

[Wilber]

And their jurisdiction over those laws ends at our borders.

But not their responsibility for Canadian citizens.

[Smallc]

But not their responsibility for Canadian citizens.

No, but neither does a Canadian citizens responsibility to follow the laws of a country.

[Michael Bluth]

No, but neither does a Canadian citizens responsibility to follow the laws of a country.

Uh yes, you do have the responsibility to follow the laws of a given country when you are in that country.

Even the much ballyhooed 'diplomatic immunity' has pretty strict limits.

Are you saying you don't think Americans, or Mexicans or Brits should have the responsibility to follow Canadian laws when they are in Canada?

[Smallc]

Uh yes, you do have the responsibility to follow the laws of a given country when you are in that country.

Even the much ballyhooed 'diplomatic immunity' has pretty strict limits.

Are you saying you don't think Americans, or Mexicans or Brits should have the responsibility to follow Canadian laws when they are in Canada?

I said that they should have that responsibility. Yes the Canadian government is responsible to its citizens, but a citizen is responsible to follow both the laws of the country they are in and the laws of their own country.

[Michael Bluth]

I said that they should have that responsibility. Yes the Canadian government is responsible to its citizens, but a citizen is responsible to follow both the laws of the country they are in and the laws of their own country.

Fair enough.

My apologies, but it didn't come across like you were saying that.

[Smallc]

Fair enough.

My apologies, but it didn't come across like you were saying that.

Sorry for the confusion, the person said that they the gov't responsibility to the people of the country did not end at the borders. I replied that the persons responsibility did not end their either. I do however have reservations about our citizens being put to death given the fact that we do not do things to the citizens of other countries.

[Michael Bluth]

I do however have reservations about our citizens being put to death given the fact that we do not do things to the citizens of other countries.

We will incarcerate the citizens of other countries. We just won't put them to death.

[capricorn]

We will incarcerate the citizens of other countries.

Did you ever notice that foreign citizens in our jails don't ask to be sent to their countries to serve their sentences. Must be our penitentiaries with state of the art gyms, access to the Internet and all the other goodies we provide.

[jefferiah]

But not their responsibility for Canadian citizens.

What does it matter? If a Canadian commits a crime in the US he is still a Canadian but for all intents and purposes he is a criminal in their system. Since he committed a crime against the US and not the Crown, the US decides how to deal with him.

An American man commits a brutal crime in the US and he is given the death penalty. A Canadian man commits seven brutal crimes in the US and you think we should tell the US that he is special, he is Canadian, he doesn't deserve the same punishment as other people who have broken the laws of your country.

Edited November 6, 2007 by jefferiah

[Wilber]

No, but neither does a Canadian citizens responsibility to follow the laws of a country.

A Canadian abroad has the responsibility to follow the laws of the country they are visiting and the Canadian government has its responsibilities to its citizens. The two are separate. You cannot abandon your own responsibilities because someone else doesn't live up to theirs. Why hold citizenship or carry a passport if it means nothing?

I used to travel for a living and one of the reasons I'm glad I don't any more is because I no longer have confidence in my government to look after me. They are showing that they will represent Canadian citizens according to their own dogma. I think I may be able to get a British passport through my mother and am seriously thinking of applying for one.

The more I think about this issue the more I am coming to believe that they would like to re establish the death penalty in Canada. There is no way I can come to terms with the idea that it is OK to fry Canadian citizens in foreign jails but not in Canadian jails.

[bush_cheney2004]

....The more I think about this issue the more I am coming to believe that they would like to re establish the death penalty in Canada. There is no way I can come to terms with the idea that it is OK to fry Canadian citizens in foreign jails but not in Canadian jails.

And this would be bad because? It seems that support for reinstatement of capital punishment was rather high not so long ago:

...A motion to reintroduce capital punishment was debated in the House of Commons in 1987. On June 30, the motion was soundly defeated on a free vote (148-127), despite public opinion polls indicating majority support for the death penalty.

A national poll conducted in June, 1995 found that 69% of Canadians moderately or strongly favoured the return of the death penalty,

When the motion to reintroduce capital punishment was announced in February of 1987, popular support for reintroduction stood at 73% . By June (when the parliamentary vote was taken), popular support had slipped to an all-time low of 61%, following widespread discussion of death penalty issues in the media.

http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php

Edited November 6, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[jefferiah]

There is no way I can come to terms with the idea that it is OK to fry Canadian citizens in foreign jails but not in Canadian jails.

I dont like people being executed either. But look....what difference does it make if he is Canadian and in his home country they dont have the death penalty. That doesn't apply in another democratic country. If a man from another nation commits a crime there they are not going to treat him better than anyone else who commits a crime there. The crime is committed on their soil. And according to their laws which he broke it would be highly unfair to give him special status. It is not Canada's responsibility to protect its citizens from the laws of another democratic nation which he broke. He is a criminal in their country who broke their laws.

If a resident of the Netherlands comes to the US and smokes a joint outside a police station he cannot say to them when they come out and arrest him "Hey, you can't do this to me. I am Dutch. We are allowed to smoke weed in my country."

Edited November 6, 2007 by jefferiah

[Smallc]

I dont like people being executed either. But look....what difference does it make if he is Canadian and in his home country they dont have the death penalty. That doesn't apply in another democratic country. If a man from another nation commits a crime there they are not going to treat him better than anyone else. The crime is committed on their soil. It is not Canada's responsibility to protect its citizens from the laws of another democratic nation which he broke. He is a criminal in their country who broke their laws.

If a resident of the Netherlands comes to the US and smokes a joint outside a police station he cannot say to them when they come out and arrest him "Hey, you can't do this to me. I am Dutch. We are allowed to smoke weed in my country."

Well, there is only one western democracy with the death penalty, and apparently there is now another (us) that condone it. Our citizens should have to follow US laws, but no one should be put to death.

[Wilber]

It is not Canada's responsibility to protect its citizens from the laws of another democratic nation which he broke. He is a criminal in their country who broke their laws.

It is a governments responsibility to protect it citizens in any country, democratic or not. One day it might be you.

[Smallc]

It is a governments responsibility to protect it citizens in any country, democratic or not. One day it might be you.

I was sitting on the fence, but now I agree with you completely. There is no reason anyone should be put to death. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

[jefferiah]

Well, there is only one western democracy with the death penalty, and apparently there is now another (us) that condone it. Our citizens should have to follow US laws, but no one should be put to death.

I agree with you. I am against the death penalty as well. But why should a Canadian get special treatment in a country which has the death penalty. Should he escape their laws when their own citizens cannot by virtue of his being Canadian.

You and I do not agree with the death penalty. We are Canadians. Our jurisdiction is Canada. We don't have a say in how the US does things. The fact that a person is Canadian does not earn him special status when he breaks the laws of their land. So if you want to be moral about it, then you had better start protesting the death penalty when it is enforced against Americans as well. Because there is no reason why a Canadian should be treated any differently when breaking their laws.

Edited November 6, 2007 by jefferiah

[capricorn]

It seems that support for reinstatement of capital punishment was rather high not so long ago:

The Conservatives recently held their a poll on the question of capital punishment as a deterrent.

The Conservative government found that just one in five Canadians supported the death penalty as a criminal deterrent in a survey it commissioned this summer in support of its justice policies.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/273531

A different question may give different numbers. I suspect support for the death penalty without the qualifier would not get much higher than that.

[Smallc]

I agree with you. I am against the death penalty as well. But why should a Canadian get special treatment in a country which has the death penalty. Should he escape their laws when their own citizens cannot by virtue of his being Canadian.

They should do away with the death penalty. I agree our citizens should follow the laws, and this is a very evil man. It makes it hard to decide. I'm against the death penalty, but why defend him? I think its the principle of the thing, so we have to be against Canadians being put to death.

[Wilber]

I agree with you. I am against the death penalty as well. But why should a Canadian get special treatment in a country which has the death penalty. Should he escape their laws when their own citizens cannot by virtue of his being Canadian.

Again, there is no reason why a Canadian should get special treatment. This is about a Canadian governments obligation to act for its citizens.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, there is only one western democracy with the death penalty, and apparently there is now another (us) that condone it. Our citizens should have to follow US laws, but no one should be put to death.

No, this is patently false. The following western "democracies" retain capital punishment:

Brazil

Guatemala

Dominica

Trinidad and Tobago

Jamaica

...and others

[Smallc]

No, this is patently false. The following western "democracies" retain capital punishment:

Brazil

Guatemala

Dominica

Trinidad and Tobago

Jamaica

...and others

Those are not "western" in the sense that I am speaking of. They are not counted as western civilizations.