Army Guy

Kabul is still risky, but nothing like down here in the south ,It's not Kabul they wanted to go it was around our AO here. Perhaps i could see your piont if there was something majorily wrong with the MDND reports, or they were false, out of date etc etc ...but is it worth risking lives again for the same info. Do we all have to place our hands on a hot oven surface to find out it is hot.... And where do we draw the line, how many of these dog and pony shows do we have to entertain before all that are concerned comes to the same conclusion as the first report filled. Numbers is a factor yes, i've tried to make this clear while staying within op sec, for 10 pers it is a major operation, that requires days of planning and excuting, many more lifes are put at risk to accomplish what getting the same info...i do not see the gain here, i'm i missing something, I agree with you the Canadian public does need to know what is going on here, but not at the cost of lives or the risk of lives getting the same info.. First hand knowledge is avail thru daily reports done by the military and the diplomatic sources with the PRT. you are aware better than i who in the Harper cabinet as been here, as i'm ussaully stuck in the toolies. but the PM, MDND, Mr Mackay, CDS have all been over serveral times. each vist is fully documanted and filled and available thru chanels...your making it sound like the info is not trust worthy. No not first choice, i think that the people need to be inform from other sources other than the media....But again where do you draw the line. when do we say enough, will it take someone dieing.

Froggy: Your onto us froggy, i knew it was just a matter of time before the nation found out, you don't write for the national inquirer do you....maybe your one of those new FLQ members, you know all talk no action...... but your right "We do need a real job", the government has been forcing us to hover around bus, train, and airports ,mugging poor inocent civilians as they make their way to thier cars, collecting unpaid taxes, to be used in our evil plot to take over unsuspecting countrys such as france. We are not worthy to live our pathic lives on your streets or towns...And you should make it your mission to confront those worthless dogs and let them know how you think.

I don't understand why i would be an embrassment to this nation, were not talking about the streets are full of pick pockets and muggers, we are talking about cold blooded killers , who would expend alot of thier people and assets to get ahold of one of these guys, to blackmail Canada in removing it's troops or something else....do we take that chance in seeing one of our defense committee members getting thier heads cut off on some vidio... When the info they seek is already alvailable. Does that sound reasonable. Yes, they did but like me that is his job, accessing the situation he is the MDND after all, and i'm sure his reports are available for all to see. Was it any safer no it was not...and yes he did make a very tempting target, but then again what we don't know is how much of the battle group was used to make that happen nor was his group as large as this committees is. I don't think it's a military decision, to say yes or no, it's a governmental one. I personally like to have all of them stay home, but i don't have a say. I keep saying it's a photo op because i don't see the value of the risk, all the info this committee could gather has already been gathered by other committees, and like i said before where do you draw the line, on whom may come over. They just got back, we will have to wait and see if this whole trip was worth all the hoopla, and we'll wait to see what they do with the info they did mange to gather. Spring here is nearly here and soon they will be in full swing. I to pray that this will soon be over, but i know it's far from over and it will be some time before Afgan will be able to take care of it self. As for near impossiable ,yes it's tough and frustrating but not impossiable.

Yes they do have a job to do, but at what price. The ratio of convoys and patrols that make contact with the bad guys is still awful high, we have a saying here it's not "if" you are going to make contact but "when"...Those 3 sources of info you've mention produce extensive reports on everything from combat , criminal, economic activities in our area, Plus alot more. These are the same reports that our nation is making decissions on in regards to this mission. I do not see how they could want more info or facts. Although true they would not be able to meet the village elders, or clan leaders, they have full access to returning soldiers. I think we would both agree that visting a disaster site and an active war zone are 2 different animals, I've yet to see any MP's vist a hurricane site while the hurricane was still active. I'm not trying to prevent anything, as it has already happened, i do agree with the decission to confine them to base. What would the liberals and NDP, let alone the rest of the Canadian citizens reaction be if one or more of these committee members are killed...In your opinion would it help the mission, or would it fan the flames and earn our nation an early pull out...What damage would it do to our militaries reputation..It's alot to lose and gamble for little in return for something thats already been reported. Your right, it has been one of my major bitchs, but this dirrection is not the safest way to get that piont across, for all involved. As for the NDP, your right they have campaigned on a few military issues, retirement pensions benifits, loss of pay benifits from returning injuried members, and medical pension issues. and there might be a few more. although they may not be my favorite party i don't think this is polictical but rather based more on security, and really a photo op. No, the diplomatic effort although part of the PRT, do not report to the military chain of command, but thru the diplomatic side of the house, They and the military chain of command drive the military reconstruction and development as well. In that regards they work as a team, with the diplomatic side having the last say, so to speak. Your both right, however that does not mean we are not trained to do it, or we are incapable of doing it. And until more resources are poured in Afgan we do not have a choice. But even with them there we would still have to provide protection teams etc etc. i don't think we would actually find a whole lot of soldiers to employ else where.

Security is an issue yes, but you failed to answer my question, is it a fact finding mission, or photo op, and would it be worth the cost of lifes. I know i'm a soldier and it's my job to serve my country, but dying for a photo op is not worth the cost. The minister has a post to fullfil, and coming here is all part of the job, what info is this committee going to uncover that could not be uncovered by those who's job it is to be here. PS there is a diplomatic corp in place here with the PRT and the Afgan government do we not trust them for this info ? Is that what we are suggesting, where do we draw the line, do we start flying over every citizen that holds a elected post to cover all the angles.

Well poser, stop making claims that you can't prove or are false and i'll play nice. So which is it poser, you've been preaching the Afganis blame NATO for all thier problems, now your blaming the Pakistanis, are you shifting directions or slowly coming around. Your making a big deal out of nothing, thier are no freedom of speach issues in the military at all, in fact most CO's incourage soldiers to talk to the media, but to keep from commenting on issues they have no knowledge of or were not involved with. Infact the line you've highlighted is the reporters opinon his attempt to lead the readers some where else, twisting the soldiers words or in this case mislead the soldiers comments. No where does it say that the Public relations officer cut the sappers comments or edited his comments. The reporter just added his two cents worth because that is what he percieved, not what was said. There is not many reporters here that soldiers will not talk to because of just that. You've yet to prove that in any of your posts, infact you've proven to be a very unreliable source of info on just about everything. Stick to topics you know. As for forcing military and cilvilian employees being told to attend a function, Are you joking, Last time i checked the military pays thier wages and if they want them to attend a function on work time then they go, end of story. As for those that are going to whine and complain about having to go to a function and support those that they may never see again, i say there is the unemployment line, they've got the wrong job... You of all people know there is plenty of functions that military members are not given a choice to attend, Nov 11 is one, showing up to say good bye to comrads is another...But then again to the uneducated in military matters there must be a story there. When there is truely not...

I think one has to draw a line in the sand some where, one would have to agree that a dead tim hortons employee or god forbid a Canadian icon such as Rick Mercer would not carry the same leverage as one dead Committee member. and the countless dead soldiers that died protecting them. One would also have to ask what exactly would they be reporting on that has not already been reported...Whats next an eviromental committee, what about the mayors from all the soldiers home towns, where do we draw the line...at what piont do we say enough is enough... Are they going to report on something new ? or is it just a photo op ? what possiable facts could they possiable find that have not already been uncovered by the governments of the day. Lib, PC, or cons. I think O Conner made the right choice, why give the enemy a chance at victory, the risks are not worth the rewards.

Catchme "AKA POSER" I still do not understand why you continue to spread your poison about afgan when your facts have either been misleading or just false. You know absolutily nothing about this topic, and your views are distorted by half trurths or lies. I've made it my new mission in life to expose you for the POSER that you are. Nobody i repeat nobody that has spent 5 min in the military could be as un inform as you have. Save your self some embrassment now and atleast goggle your info... Is that true your now claiming to been in the Armour Regt...God help us all. Your reading the material but not getting the full gist of the articals, the link below is from DND new and mission briefs, it will explain in detail what we are doing in Afgan then and now. Canadian military forces have been involved in combat operations since we have hit the ground... DND page This has been explained over and over again, we are doing combat, humanitarian, and polictical missions all at the same time hence why there is a Battle group, and a PRT group. we have been doing this for some time now, and have not changed our mission despite what you may think.

weaponeer: I wish you luck, and may your ROTO have better luck than ours. The only advice i can give you is soak up every medical lecture you can, and make sure you have it down pat..and ask alot of questions, and one last bit of advice, buy some kit, drop bags for large medi packs, and another for extra ammo, Pet has alot of good kit available at the kit shops, buy it here in Canada or you'll pay thru the ass over in Afgan.. Never leave camp with less than 12 to 15 mags of 5.56, and carry a pistol with extra mags as well...the more ammo the better...

Poser: I don't think you get the piont, Canadian public opinion is effecting the outcome of this war period. Not because your footing the bill, because the Canadian public can't make up thier damn minds what they want to do..A war that was supported by the majority of Canadians at the start, and is now being influenced by poor government coverage, poor media coverage, and lobby groups, or peace groups that have no real idea on the situation on the ground. Combine all of that with the opostion using it to grab votes. I find it ironic that your opinion matters because you pay taxes, and yet soldiers opinions are disregarded for no reason, and the last time i checked i did pay taxes, and i'm allowed to vote. And while your only contribution to this mission is a small protion of your tax bill, every soldier also puts his life on the line every day and still his opions are disregarded or brushed off as government heresay. I'll repeat my offer, not happy with the mission then send me your address and i'll give you back your tax contributution that is being used to support this mission. I'm not suggesting doing it for our moral, i'm saying if you had the balls to agree with the government to send us over here in the first place then you should show some conviction to see the mission thru...It cost you a few bucks to do so, while it may cost soldiers thier lives and yet they are still supporting the mission, WHY? Why out of Afgan, you have a more noble mission for us, perhaps we can try them all until we find one more to your liking. No thanks we have a mission , one that we have already heavily invested into, and we are not about to give up and go home because it does not live up to your standards, because Canadian soldiers are carrying guns with real bullets, and are actually taking lives. Protecting our lives, NO sir, you are putting them in harms way, by supporting the same objectives as the enemy. As for not doing what we came here to do , you need to check the first roto in here ask the PPCLI what they were doing when they got here. Our primary task was to hunt down them taliban scumbags and send them to allah, The government made this very clear, this was our job, not serving tea, not handing out teddy bears but taking the fight to the taliban. Spurious, really, Name one battle the Taliban have won, NATO has beaten them in every engagement. They know they can not defeat NATO in conventional fighting. But they are not fighting a tactical war they are fighting stratgic war. That war is being fought on your TV set, and in the minds of every Canadian. they know convince the people that this war is unwinniable, or bush quest for world power, what ever, once they convince you to change your minds, winning battles does not matter, when the people demand thier troops go home, governments will listen or fad into the sunset, giving them the victory they are looking for. So it's not us that are lossing this war it's you. Taliban numbers are not increasing, infact they are decreasing, the area that operation madusa covered is almost devoid of taliban how to you explain that, infact recently a Canadian media team went back into the area with out a miliatry escort, and reported those facts...how do you explain that.

Poser: You have this incredable knack for making a story where one does not exist. you story is so wrong on so many levels , but then again you know that being an ex military person. You give the impresion that our entire coast is protected by one ship, are we that guliable to think that for your defense buck that is all you get...Give me a break... What about our coastal radar, our coastal patrol ves, or maritime patrol aircraft, not to mention our airforce assets...nobody even mentioned those...what are they doing are they tied up as well "NOPE"...story does not say...it just what you don't say that speaks volumes....So is it really a story or a grab for headlines. Your story is about a fisheries patrol, you know patrolling our coastal fishing grounds for fishing violations. it says nothing about sovereignty patrols you know the ones they patrol and defend our coast line with. You forget to say anything about that, but if you did it would not have the same impact..we need that finger waving in the wind pionting at the CPC "shouting you guys blew it" I'll tell you who's to blame it's the Canadian tax payer who should be ashamed for allowing our government to put our military in thier current state.

I've been here for almost 5 months now and soon it will be our turn to rotate home. I've continuly posted on this forum because i thought i could bring a soldiers perspective to things happening here in Afgan, but instead found myself even more limited in what i could say or post due to Operation Security, but even with one arm tied behind my back i thought i could convince a few non believers into seeing what good we are doing here. But i was wrong, those that are again'st this mission will not be swayed, for many reasons, Our government has done a horriable job of getting our accomplishments out, the media for the most part are not telling the whole story, yes there is a few exceptions of reporters that have gone outside the wire with us, they have told the story , they have told the story first hand, but those are the exception ,the rare exception...when the bulk of the reporters here have not even been outside the wire. The press coverage has been so bad lately i've stopped downloading it on to my laptop to share with the rest of the platoon, because it was effecting moral. I don't think alot of Canadians know just how thier public opinion effects how this conflict is being won or lost. Nor do they care one way or another. Just as long as they have a cause or something to piont there fingers at , "this is bushes war, this war is unwinniable, what ever the cause. What is frustrating to soldiers is to watch all thier daily sacrafices being slowly eroded over what the public in Canada believe is happening over in Afgan. What i do know is in the weeks to come i'll be leaving Afgan to come home, knowing in the back of my mind that myself and my section have made postive changes here in Afgan, Changes that we are proud of, that we have done everything within our power to accomplish the mission that our nation has given us. The same Nation who's slim majority has forgotten why they sent us over there to start with. So when we all look back thru history let it clearly be shown that our nations military had done everything it was asked of and more. I've added the below link because it descrides a soldiers opinion better than i could. Canadian public opinion does matter, and it does reflect on the enemies tactics, and the lives of Canadian soldiers. And is starting to effect the moral of our soldiers... My Webpage

Yes we are seeing some fighting , nothing on the scale they promised. Nor do they have to win any tactical battles, they are fighting on a strategic level, one in which they are winning at this time , if they can convince Canadian citizens that the situation is hopeless, they know we will pull out our troops hence NATO will start to crumble and they will be granted thier victory, and allowed to run havoc in Afgan again.

Now here is a worth while cause, a bunch of scumbags willing to kill over what, english signs now there is a cause.... Is this a major problem in Quebec, is there that much friction between the french and english.. This needs to be taken serious and quickly, hoax or not our government needs to send a strong message, terrorist activites will not be tolerated. you will be hunted down and punished, Or anybody with an axe to grind is going to start sending letters in with threats.

jdobbin: I agree, but body counts do sell papers don't they. Canadian military does not put much stock into body counts, and most of the time uses rough est, as that is how the public judges sucess. But below is an example of achieving security. My Webpage We will see come spring, The Taliban has promised to continue the fight thru the winter, but has failed to produce any real solid offensive. And with things changing in the south they may be forced to change thier tactics again.

Madmax: One could ask the Canadian military the same question, how long has it been that we have been trying to train an extra 5000 troops. Training an effective military force capable of operating together, in large numbers is very difficult. made in more difficult when there is no infra structure, or the pay levels are low, or there is no equipment, or what is available is of poor quality. Add to that, The fact that the whole method of insurgent warfare is entirily different than counter insurgent operations. Poser: It's not that funny at all actually, alot of this Afganis soldiers can not read or write, and they are learning how to soldier in actual combat conditions, more like learn it or die trying. as i said before they are excellant insurgent soldiers, but they are being trained for counter insurgent operations, two differnt beasts altogether. Don't let a few film clips fool you into thinking they are inept they have learned thier trade from 27 years of living it day in day out, and are quit capable of killing very effectivly..

normanchateau: Why is it not worthy of our support, one has to ask the following questions before cementing ones opinion. The main reason we got involved was to remove the Taliban leadership, that part is done for the most part, next was to get an elected government installed up and running. We have no say in who they the Afganis people elect, the only chioce we had was "would we support that government...and we choose yes.. It is easy to critise that government, for it's corruption, for it's religous values, and for the way they handle things..many of thier decissions do not come up to western values or ideals. But we need to remember that we can not compare the two systems, or the fact that the country has to rebuild from the ground up after 27 years of continueous warfare and the current government has only been doing that for a short period of time. And has made great strides forward. something that gets lost is the accomplishments, and the only things that get brought up are it's short comings..I wonder just how far along Canada was in it's first 10 years as a nation, and what BS they had to contend with..The wild west comes to mind. Islamic law will always have a say in thier government and values, that we will have to just live with, will it eventually tone down, i'm sure it will as the standard of living improves..but right now they still have roving bands of terrorist killing or terrorizing the people. And security is thier number one pri...So yes some of thier laws are going to seem tough, restrictive. Those Noble Canadians that are being sacrificed know what the cost of peace is, they don't die on command,nor are they robots, they are living ,and breathing and free thinking Canadians, they are just like you and the rest on this board. only they have access to more info, and are actually there on the ground, seeing and smelling and experiancing it first hand..If they can decide that this mission is a worth while cause, knowing that, thier decision may put thier lives in danger for a longer period of time. That has got to say something, perhaps the question that the rest of Canada should be asking is "why are they willing to risk thier lives for these people?".. If it was to preserve Canadian interests then why not, "highly unlikely" but why not. Afgan is a differnent case, NATO did not have to ask us, we were responding because the US was attacked and we were living up to our agreement. But in your case if NATO "asked" because we were not fulfilling any need or agreement then i would say we as a nation would have to carefully examine the situation. Something that was supposily done by the liberals.

Catchme: If you are not concerned about what we think about you why are you editting your posts to cover your ass. But even with your edit, your info is still not correct, Reserves made up only a small percentage of the total force infact they were considered a rare commodity on the cambat arms side, infact for the most part a soldier had to be TQ 5 qual to even get over to germany. Yes it was a good posting, The airforce had a complete fighter wing based in Germany exact numbers i'm not sure,mostly based out of Baden, but the army had by far the most number of military personal stationed in Lahr germany with the RCR or PPCLI based in Baden. the army portion made up a complete war time strength Brigade group, well over 6000 pers. All our germany personal were part of a much larger NATO force who's sole purpose was to defend europe from the Warsaw pact forces, and to accomplish that we were on a constant war readiness posture.. not doing observer or peacekeeping duties but ready to defend europe at a moments notice.... Then why would you doctor your post if not only to cover your ass, why have you consistantly provided this forum with False info, your actions and info has lead me to belief that you are a "poser", a wanna be, someone who is taking advantage of the good deeds and sacrafices of those that have served this great nation..for nothing more than to give yourself some credibility. nothing about what you have said in ref to us being primarily peacekeepers is true, most of your facts about operations about afgan are false, and your facts on germany are just made up, It is the simple info that every soldier should know or atleast know where to find that info that is missing in your case... Infact you never even bothered to goggle your info just made it up.. Yes there is alot of reasons why military members speak out again'st the war, what is yours? perhaps you can give us one news article in one major paper where serving members have spoken out again'st our current mission. infact find one former soldier that has served in afgan that is speaking out about afgan. My piont is that it is rare, Soldiers have come back missing limbs or have had thier lives changed forever are speaking for the mission, and continue thier support for thier comrads..Many are volunteering to return to afgan despite all of the dangers, not because we crave the adrenline rush but because we know we can make a difference here, that we are making a difference here and our sacrafice is worth it...but that does not speak to you, our opinons do not count, or we've been brainwashed.

Madmax: I'm on the main camp for some rear duties, got the night shift so it's pretty quite and got lots of time to burn. Poser: Concern for our well being or maybe it's just that it furthers cause to have us home..Your not an NDP peacenik are you, with another mission in mind ? you have yet to prove that your a former anything, infact numerous times you have proven anything but. even an ex plumber should know something about plumbing. All you've suggested is that thier is going to be an oil shortage, and those with oil will have power...now that is news, and has been for years, but what is crazy is you tieing it to Afgan, what was even more crazy was the pipelines and pumping station around our camp, only proving that you are making this up or your sources are full of shiiittt. As for our credibility we've already been judged by our actions, and sorry to burst your bubble but the Canadian people kind of like us....And deep down inside your tinfoil hat i know you like us to... Actually in our sector poppy eradication is not that big of a deal, in fact most of it is being carried out by afgan troops or police. As combat operations that have kept us pretty busy...But if the UN est that the profit from poppies out of afgan is only 2.5 bil a year, and finicial assistance for the country is well over that mark would it not make sense for the Afgan government to curb it's drug dealings for risk of losing it's aid.

Catchme: Thats kind of hard since the Afgan operation is dry with the exception of the very odd occasion of 2 beers per man. I was ref to all drugs, be it pot or hard drugs. .. What attitude would that be the battlefield is no place for drugs because it may get me or my section killed or the attitude if your sick get help which one i'm confused. You are on crack i'm now convinced that you have never served a day in your life and if you did it was on some secluded airforce base. Germany was a NATO mission, one that was to respond to any warsaw pact invasion that never came, which meant that every unit there was on high readiness and at full war TO&E, not some peacekeeping mission. that meant there was armed aircraft on the tarmac and live air defense systems active at all times and the brigades war ammo for it's fighting troops readily available sounds like peace keeping to me... tours of duty were min of 3 years with some lasting as long as 5 or more years. this info is nothing new even available on google if you had bother to check...or do you make this up as you go...How many lies do we have to catch you in before you give up this charade. i hear by brand you your new nik "poser" everyone for say "Aye" poser it is...

Your joking right ? Again your joking ?

Madmax: Perhaps i'm missing something here max, excuse me but it's very early here, and i've been at this all night. i've reread your posts and i'm still not sure if we are on the same page, can you sort me out.

Catchme: I did not suggest that our country does not show our military graditude, i was being sacrastic with you ensuring you that our government did not show that much graditude upon a soldiers death. And yes many people do have more important jobs in running our nation, most are payed very well but perhaps you could list all those that have unlimited liability, and why it would be asking to much for our nation to recongonze that with a better death benifits package ? Yes i can tell your very concerned about our well being infact you've said alot, but nothing that would suggest concern about our safety. Nor have you said with any facts why you want us home. other than make some crazy statements about drug and oil cartels and something about imaginary pipelines and pumping stations.

madmax: It was not you that i was ref to when i mentioned military service it was Catch me, who's claim to prior military service was called into question some time ago.

madmax: Which all may sound strange and foreign to you, but we agreed when we first started this mission that we were not there to force any form of government on the Afgan people that we would allow them to choose "thier" government one that would work for them did we not...and if that is thier interputation of islamic law then we have agreed to uphold it... When was the last time anyone was exucuted in a soccer staduim for the crimes or shall i say infractions that you mentioned, when was the last time someone was shot in the streets by anyone in the Afgan government for simply things such as dress codes, flying a kite, or having thier hands cut off for going to school.. All one has to do is make a list and compare the two the present day Afgan Government and the Taliban and one will find drastic differences and improvements... you pick which one you would perfer to live under...but that is not the piont is it, the Afgan people have not asked you to pick one or for that matter even like the ones they have picked. All they are asking is for NATO to establish security and to assist them in rebuilding Because they are islamic does that mean we can't help, does that mean our way of life is better, to the piont we look down at everyone islamic, or for that matter different, Is that the new Canadian way....is that how we built our reputation of being peacekeepers, peace builders. No it's time we put the peace signs away in the closet, it's time we start living up to our postion within the world. we has a nation can not help everyone that needs it, but do we use that as an excuse not to assist anyone. or do we make that our new foriegn policy if your not a white anglo nation then we can't help, and oh by the way we need to be done in a few years... If thats all you think we are doing in Afgan is providing security then your mistaken and ill informed.