Army Guy

jdobbin: I think NATO as a organization is backing the nations that are doing the fighting, as this mission sucess depends on it's survival. I think it is more like the nations within NATO that are having the problem of supporting the mission. As there is nothing in it for them. for some terrorist have already scare them into inaction. As for Canada being limited by NATO not entirely true. we are limited by our own capabilties, and our ability to generate replacements for the next ROTO. And for that we have nobody to blame but ourselfs. You mean they are evolving to the piont we have lost our resolve, we are allowing a fantical islamic organization to win the war, in fact what we are really saying here is if you can drag this out long enough you'll get your way, that we will concede so that terrorists will be free to terrorize us at will. As for Pakistan, the free world needs to bring more preasure on them, forcing them into action and forcing them to bring more force on the Taliban. As for any NATO troops fighting in pakistan, but we know this is not going to happen, not without hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground and pakistan knows this and takes advantage of it. Without more troops on the ground to atleast make it difficult for the taliban to cross the borders then yes we are forced to drag this out a little longer. And if we do pull out, and for argument sake the taliban does take control of the country again. then Canadians will have to ask themselfs what price we as a nation are willing to pay for thier victory. I mean we have already shown them that with all our tech we can be beaten, and unlike them we have no taste for prolonged combat. And if they decide to persue there terrorist ways and punish us in some way in the future, perhaps another 9/11 incident. It would cost us more to bring in more sercurity measures to prevent such attacks than the actual war ever will. Are we ready for that bill... And do we really think that after we leave that the rest of the nations won't follow suit, leaving the British and US hanging out in the wind. What would that do for the NATO treaty, will it survive, and if it does not how will that effect our own defense, will the US still offer to protect us under thier umbrella, or will we now have to defend ourselfs, with 56,000 troops. I know we are not ready for that bill... So there is more at stake than what we think, or perhaps i'm full of shit, and nothing will happen except all our efforts here in afgan will be for nothing and alot of good men and women will have died for nothing more than an ill thought out dream of bringing peace to a nation or for that matter any future nation. as the world will already know that we are quitters. Catchme: Perhaps the Taliban and the rest of the scumbags missed that news flash. i know i did...everytime we leave the wire i have 30 to 40 lbs of ammo on my person, not candy, not teddy bears, but ammo, because the taliban don't greet us with flowers and choclates but with Ak's and RPG's. And the orders we recieve are from our government and are very clear we are to relocate the taliban from Afgan thru the use of force. We are at war, and it's time you did some research...

I just brifly scimmed all the posts here, and find a recuring theme from the same posters, "Afgan is a hopless adventure",a waste of tax dollars, a waste of lives" (Not so says it's soldiers), what is a waste of our tax dollars, and lives is the Canadian public flip floping and not fully supporting it's orginal decission to direct action in Afgan. Yes the mission is full of problems , but instead of pulling out ,quitting and sticking our heads back in the sand, we should be demanding from our government that solutions be found and action taken to fix them. Our government needs to take the lead and attempt to show the leadership that is required to make all this possiable, to show the rest of the world that maybe a peaceful Afganistan is possiable. But i'd like to piont out some facts that sometimes get missed or forgotten. We did not start this conflict, it was brought to us by a fantical islamic terrorist group, one that had and still has the backing of many fantical islamic states, and organizations. They brought this conflict to our doorstep with 9/11, one that killed over 30 Canadians, whom were not soldiers, not politicians, not government employees, but everyday Canadian citizens trying to make a buck. Did this event alone require us as a nation to take a stand to take some form of action ? This event was a direct attack on the US of A, and as a member of NATO was also an attack on all of the NATO countries. Canada included, which again requires us as a nation to take and support direction action again'st those responsable. A mission that is still ongoing, and is not completed as the Taliban and Al quada are still a viable threat not only to the Government of Afgan but to the rest of us in the west. As part of the mission of destroying those responsable for 9/11 the mission has included rebuilding Afgan government and rebuilding the nation, a mission that is still ongoing. This attack is not just an attack on the US but all the western countries whom share many of the the same values and ways of life as the US. And was not just made by one fantical terrorist group, but by all those that support this way of thinking "that killing infidals" is a sport, a way of life, part of thier fantical religious beliefs. Canada will not have a free pass if it leaves, we and our way of living will always be on thier shit list. What message would we be sending to these scumbags if we as a nation did not stand up for our citizens, for our NATO commitiments, for our way of living? What message do we send the rest of the world? And what are going to be the consquences of us packing up and going home.

I just wanted to say thanks. To all Canadians for all the support that you have shown the Canadian soldier, myself included. I also want to thank all those that have sent cards, presents,letters, it was truly mind boggling the amount that arrived here thousands upon thousands of them. The show of support is overwhelming and is really appriciated by all of us. I really want to thank all of those friends and strangers who truly made my X-mas HLTA one to remember, from the standing ovation me and some of my comrads recieved at the TO airport bar on our arrival, and the one i recieved at the legion my dad drug me to. thanks. But i really want to thank my wife and kids who really made this earily X-mas one to remember. I want to wish everyone a happy new year, may this year be a better one for everyone.

White Doors: Your 100% right our country is not at "total war" with the Taliban, And "we" are bound by our RO&E's and Canadian law and the conventions, they are not. that detail already gives them an advantage...And yes they are a formiddable enemy and they're form of attacks are stratigic in nature. But my piont here is that making them Illigal or making all sucide attacks ILLIGAL will not change anything, it will not stop this type of warfare because of it's Stratigic value, and thier limited resources. Do we really think it will act as a deterent because it's a crime. Yes the laws and convention are there for a reason, i understand that, and i'm not advocating the balant disregard for them. Just pionting out that not every nation follows them to the letter, and that history is full of examples of that including Canada. And that the conventions are treated more as a guide than actual law when convientent. And the only difference between total war, and tactical war is the nations opinion and attitude . And there actions are driven by what they are willing to live with...As history would clearly show it is the victor that enjoys all the spoils. I'll give you an example, Before the War museum was moved, in the Victory cross section there was a painting of a Canadian WWII corsair diving into a japanese detroyer, i can not remember the pilot's name but i do remember some of the story. his plane was badly shot up, and his last act was to dive his plane and himself into the destroyer, for his actions he was awarded the victory cross...Our nations highest award, a well deserved award and perhaps i'm the one confused here but how do we as a nation honour this man as a hero and then pass a law that will make all suicide killings ILLIGAL. My opinion is it is a desparate form of warfare, use as a last step or measure or by an army that is desparate such as the Taliban..I've already stated that suicide bombings again'st civilian targets is ILLIGAL, and that i do not agree with those tactics.. I've nothing to hide, and will take responsability for my opinions right or wrong, or perhaps just not express correctly. but yes invite them over, the more the merrier. Thanks but i'm no knight in shining armour, there are more soldiers more deserving than me. I don't think this was ever discussed, we are fighting the good fight, and we will not lose on the military front but perhaps polictical front.

Remiel: Then one would be considered to be a spy, which after a trail one could be put to death. "' Article 29 '. -- A person can only be considered a spy when, acting clandestinely or on false pretences, he obtains or endeavours to obtain information in the zone of operations of a belligerent with the intention of communicating it to the hostile party. Thus, soldiers not wearing a disguise who have penetrated into the zone of operations of the hostile army, for the purpose of obtaining information, are not considered spies. Similarly, the following are not considered spies: soldiers and civilians carrying out their mission openly, entrusted with the delivery of despatches intended either for their own army or for the enemy's army. To this class belong likewise persons sent in balloons for the purpose of carrying despatches and, generally, of maintaining communications between the different parts of an army or a territory." The definition of a spy given in this Article remains completely valid since the Geneva Convention contains no similar provision. However, a spy is also a protected person in so far as he conforms to the definition given in Article 4 of the Fourth Convention. Under Article 5 of the Convention, the spy may nevertheless be deprived temporarily of certain rights, particularly the right of communication. "' Article 30 '. -- A spy taken in the act shall not be punished without previous trial." The Convention contains several provisions in this respect which extend the principle and make it precise. Thus Article 3 prohibits "the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples". Article 3 , although it applies only to armed conflicts not of an international character, contains rules of absolutely general application. The prohibition mentioned is, moreover, confirmed by Article 5 and Articles 64 -76. [p.617] It should also be noted that paragraph 2 of Article 68 authorizes the Occupying Power under certain conditions to inflict the death penalty on protected persons found guilty of espionage. "' Article 31 '. -- A spy who, after rejoining the army to which he belongs, is subsequently captured by the enemy is treated as a prisoner of war, and incurs no responsibility for his previous acts of espionage."

Blackdog is right, the act is not illigal, the fact that he disguised himself or did not clearly identify himself as a combatant is what is agan'st the convention, however we have had Taliban indivs clearly armed in a crowd and before detonating himself shout out he was a fighting for the taliban and then detonate themself.

White doors: I just want to comment on the Genva conventions for a second. Who enforces the convention, for sake of argument Nazi germany was on trail and has charged the allies with fire bombing civilian targets they provide a convention reference. In real life was there infact any charges brought again'st the allieds....something that has again reared it's head with our national war museum...but the convention clearly states that those actions were wrong....So are they law or are they a guide. Our current Rules of engagement were written from Canadian law and conventions, however if there is a total war would we actually be abiding by the convention or what we were as a nation prepared to live with... Wilber: Bulls eye....Rules of warfare are written on the battlefield, both sides agree to give equal treatment to all combatants, IE start loping off heads of the wounded odds are the other side will return the favour...and don't let that "we are from the west we are better than that" fool you, history is full of examples of brutallity in war conducted by the west including Canadians, Example after the D-day landings and those Canadian soldiers were found exicuted by the SS orders were given out there would be no SS POW's were to be taken taken....that is clearly agian'st the conventions... My piont is it is fine for some suit to write how warfare should be conducted in the safety of his office, it is another whole different ball game to get soldiers to abide.

Kimmy: exactly my piont. Heres the twist what is not acceptable behavior in Canada under law or under our broad set of values or morals , is expected behavior in time of conflict. Which is why we really need to be objective when creating rules of engagements for our soldiers. we do not want to put them at a disavantage before they even enter the field of combat. Charles Anthony: Or should we only judge other people's actions? Soldiers do judge thier own actions everyday, were put under the micro scope by everyone, Canadians , our comrads, the media, everyone... however it is the soldiers that relive the decissions every night, in thier dreams, it is them that have to live with those actions for the rest of thier lives. Does it make us cold and heartless, no it does not. I'm fighting for the same rights and freedoms that you enjoy in Canada, only i'm assisting the Afgans in achieveing thiers.... But let me ask you this question do you think we as a nation have a responsabilty to help other nations less fortunate as ours. It's not a surprise, not all Canadians believe that other nations or groups of people should have the same rights and freedoms as we have. everyone is entitled to thier own opinion hence why we live in a fantastic country. Where you are wrong, is i represent them as well as you, there is no coming back from a mission ,walking off the plane and saying that was for you and you wait not you....Don't like it then vioce your opinon and take action...it's one of your rights... Objective, every second we are outside the wire we are objective, shoot or no shoot decisions are made dozens of times everytime we go out. if you mean i'm not objective because we've decided to error on the side on caution, how is that wrong...

Charles Anthony: As a soldier i think suicide bombing is a form of warfare, as long as it is directed towards military type targets....i think we run a slippery slope here when we start declaring what actions are good and what are bad... perhaps you can explain that comment, do you think there is not enough restrictions, or to many ? to them me kicking in thier door at 2 am with 12 heavily armed men tearing their home apart looking for arms or whatever is a terrorist activitiy. to them me pumping serveral rounds into thier car for getting to close to me is a terrorist activitiy... I call it doing the job that our country has asked me to do, doing what you pay me to do. If your asking me as a human being do i feel remorse for carrying out those orders, At the start of my first tour yes i did some what , but that quickly wore off, after seeing a section mate shot through the skull by a 12 year old boy we had by passed in a home search ,thinking he was no threat...or searching a veh that has been hit by a suicide bomber and only finding a boot of what was your buddy ...now after my second tour, i feel nothing, someone tells me thiers a terrorist in that home we storm it fully expecting to engage it's occupants, all of it's occupants. a veh gets to close we engage it until it is disabled or is no longer a threat....We are not cruel about nor do we get pleasure from doing it, but make no mistakes we will do what ever it takes to do our jobs...

Is there any more info on this bill ? The reason i ask because i don't see the bill accomplishing much, other than the fact it will get your organization label as carrying out terrorist activities..big deal there are alot of organizations that have carried out or have ties to terrorists and our government still deals with them... As a soldier i think suicide bombing is a form of warfare, as long as it is directed towards military type targets....i think we run a slippery slope here when we start declaring what actions are good and what are bad... to them me kicking in thier door at 2 am with 12 heavily armed men tearing their home apart looking for arms or whatever is a terrorist activitiy. to them me pumping serveral rounds into thier car for getting to close to me is a terrorist activitiy... What we really need is tougher laws restricting or preventing our government from dealing with these groups, plus more funding into ensuring they are not operating in our country.

Perhaps i'm the only one that thinks our current prison system is to soft, And prisoners have far to many rights as it stands. Perhaps it is a lack of understanding or education on this topic that drives my opinons, or perhaps it's because i've seen other prison systems around the world. No i'm not a convict but have dropped POW's and prisoners off to various prisons around the world. I've got a problem with all this, 6.90 is higher than some min wages already set by some provinices. Below are the wages set out by military prisoners. ) (Entitlement) An officer or non-commissioned member, or a former officer or former non-commissioned member who is sentenced to imprisonment by a court martial and is committed to the CFSPDB is entitled, for each full day of imprisonment, to imprisonment allowance based on the member’s participation in rehabilitation and work programs, as determined by the Commandant of the CFSPDB, as follows: $5.00 per day, if the officer or non-commissioned member or former officer or former non-commissioned member fully participates; $2.50 per day, if the officer or non-commissioned member or former officer or non-commissioned member does not fully participate due to circumstances beyond their control; or $1.00 per day, in any other case. Here is my problem, why are we paying them at all for internal labour such as mopping floors, running thier libriary, doing thier laundry, things they need done to increase thier quality of life, not ours, but thiers. These chores need to be done, and should be part of thier daily routine, as it is with us normal every day citizens Nobody pays me to clean my house or do my laundry etc etc...Basic housekeeping should be done by the convicts for convicts free of charge period... i'm not a heartless bastard i do agree paying them a wage for work above and beyond such as building maintance, veh miantence(looking after the prison veh fleet perhaps even the police fleet, presently the army has a HLVW life extension project ongoing which is being done by convicts. There are thousands of productive things that could be done by these convicts to earn them wages...not full wages but wages... ...I'll explain. By not paying them full wages would allow the prison to dump cash into running programs such as teaching convicts how to be veh mechs, electricians etc etc usable trades training. Any other programs should be payed by the convicts, want a GED then it cost X amount, want a degree it cost X amount, want cable TV they pay, want sat TV they pay, want vidios they pay, etc etc. It's time we stop treating them as if they all have special needs and start treating them like prisoners and convicts. wages wages

normanchateau: Thank you, and i know you meant no disrespect, and i should of PM'd you instead of using a public format, and for that i appoligize it's been a tough 24 hours and i was not thinking clearly. And yes they are Hero's. Thank you.

normanchateau: I'd like to ask you norman not to use the deaths of these men to further your cause. You may have your reasons not to support the mission, and although we may disagree i respect your rights and opinions. So i ask you please do not use the deaths of my comrads to make your piont, as it dishonors they're commitment and sacrafice. Thank you.

normanchateau : Your right Norm there is a major drug problem in Afgan, and it does have far reaching effects here in our country. But when put in context to all the problems in Afgan and the conflict there, it does not rate as the number one, two, or three problems, The first being security, the second being poor and lack of work, and the third is starvation. Yes Afgan is producing most of the worlds opium, and according to the UN produces some 1.2 bil dollars in profits for the farmers, and 2 bil in profits for the trafficers in afgan... Afgan farmers are growing this crop because it puts food on thier tables, to feed thier families, UN est that farmers are grossing approx 1800.00 US dollars a year, where if they had decided to grow wheat they would earn 550.00 a year. While we are blaming the Afgan government eradication of the poppy crop is up over 3 times, that of last year. So efforts are improving but take second fiddle to actual combat operations and fighting the Taliban and Al Quaida. Scroll down to Afgan opuim survey: UN report I'd also like to piont out that yes Afgan is doing all the growing, but whom is really getting rich off all this opuim, The west is and is worth far more than the 3 bil it nets Afgan, but the UN puts the est at around 30 bil dollars in the hands of organized crime,etc but other sources claim this number to be alot higher. These are the people that are putting these drugs onto our streets and into the hands of our citizens...these are the guys we should be declaring war on....

normanchateau: Are you stating that unless a country decides to choose a Canadian look alike democracy they are not worthy of our assistance. That would sure thin out the list would it not. With power comes corruption, in fact i do not know of one government in the entire world that is absolutely free of curruption, as for the fundamentalist Islamic theocracy , how many Islamic countries do not follow this path, How many nations in the world does not allow religion to reflect in some decisions, laws, etc etc. This man was never excuted, in fact where is he now norm. And if we started to use all your conditions before we decided to launch another mission , we would never get out of the country. In fact how many hotspots in the world right now fit into your catagories?

gerryhatrick: That would depend on whom you where talking to, and in what context it was said in...In regards to soldiers comments it does make sense " every time you leave the wire and security of the camp, every soldier needs an excuse to pump himself up, to get his mind into the game as we say...And one of those reasons is in memory of a fallen comrad, it is a key motivating factor, into convincing ones mind into going into danger or facing death. You have to take out any polictical meaning or statement, and put your self in his boots, and in his world which consists of only his section or platoon, anything else does not mean squat.. It is hard to put into words the bond that developes between soldiers, it is deeper than anything i've experiance in my life, stronger than bonds that develope between brother and sister, wife and husband, , in fact i'd put it on equal footing as bonds with your children... These bonds are for life..and it is what drives a soldier to do the things we do in and out of combat. And it is in that context that his comments should be taken. As for it being a reason to stay when the situation is hopless then your right it is not an excuse that would hold water...But and i've said this a thousands times it has not gotten to that hopless piont yet...and when it does the soldiers will be the first to tell the world...

Saturn: I guess that would depend if you call a coup helping out the Afgan government. Soviet cas est are much lower est at under 15,000 killed and over 500,000 wia. Soviets also installed a government to thier liking. There is no comparison to todays situation in Afgan to yester years. Where did you get this info, could you provide a source. because Afgans are not white, not any more than Arabs. Canadian armed forces tortured and raped civilians in Rwanda," NOT true", there has only been one case of Canadian soldiers torturing one boy and that was in somolia...And since then steps have been taken to ensure it does not happen again... Maybe you can give us an example of Christians stuffing values down anyones throat.

Blackdog: I would agree any movement towards peace is a good one, but how do you convince the Israelis and palestinians to move, what is the carrot on the stick. I don't see one, and if it fails then what , what recourse does Israel have.

Higgly: Your not interested in debating this subject, but rather stating your opinion, ...OK you've had your say move on. leave the remaining bandwidth to us that want to debate the subject with more than some snappy come backs or actual research.

Blackdog: Yes you are right, my mistake however it was shortly afterward the war of independance in 1948 that Israel determined that those 1947 borders were indefensible. facts. Why the 1967 borders, and i'm assuming thats before the 67 war not after it.

Higgly: That was not my question, The details of that are none of your business, Correct me if i'm wrong but you where the one that wieghed in on the topic, you are the one that is debating Rues info he's posted, I think it would add important info and credibility to your arguement would it not ? As history has been rewritten and twisted on this subject millions of times , I'd like to know where and how you are basing your opinons. Again perhaps i'm missing something here but how is a 1919 map of the league of nations mandate going to prove your piont. This is what i see, I see the land that was supose to be the state of Israel in it's entirety, a jewish homeland. And then the small chunk that was finally given out, and still there is no agreement by the Arab side. My Webpage And when you compare it to the terroritory that was actually decided by the UN in 1947. there is a massive difference between the 2. infact these borders were rejected by all parties. Nov 1947 map. My Webpage Which 1967 map are we to use the prior to the war or the one after. Before the war. which is basically how things look like today.. My Webpage Or after the war. My Webpage What does the death toll have to do with the situation. would it change anything if it was equal ? Again should this be taken into account at the peace table and why? And is this strictly Israel's fault. That is some silver plate when you go back to the very beginning and start looking at all the concessions that israel has had made on thier behalf, by either the British, the league of nations, and the UN all trying to find a solution to a problem in which most if not all the world did not care about or had had at the time a racist view on. And lets be be real here for a moment US interests in the area were very minimal in the 40's, 50's and did not really start supporting Israel with limited miltary equipment until the 60's and 70's. My Webpage you also forget to mention of the support that some of the middle east countries were getting from mother Russia. but you also forget to mention that US also sponsors most of the middle east with US dollars and other support. To which state did these palestians belong to. which citizenship did they hold, to what government were they to answer to. to what nation do they proclaim to belong to. Why i ask that is with out it how do they hold property rights,citenship rights, or have any rights other than those afforded by the UN to all persons. I've spent 2 tours in the area as a peacekeeper, one in El gorah with the MFO and another in Syria with the UN i am by no means an expert but i have seen some of the problems that this conflict has created and i have a problem with laying it at the feet of one nation. but see this as a middle east problem that involves all the nations involved. And will take all those nations to solve this.

Higgly: It's funny because on the last line you mention a Fair and Enforceable agreement, yet what in your solution is fair to both parties, who've given the palestinians everything on a silver plate and place the blame firmly at the feet of the Israelis...If i may what is your experiance on this issue ? do you have first hand knowledge of the area, or are you re quoting some professor who's under wear has been in a ball for the last 20 years. If you do know anything about the area and it's problems then it should reflect in your solution, or atleast a solution that would even be looked at by both sides.

normanchateau: If i did not know any better norm i'd say you where trolling, so i guess i'll bite and say "yours".

gerryhatrick: Sorry i meant to say personnel issues. Thats exactly what i meant, even the US ground commanders have commented serveral times that there is just not enough troops on the ground. That being said i don't want to take anything away from the accomplishments that US forces have done in Iraq todate. just state that thier is not enough troops on the ground to solve all the problems they face there now.

We as a nation do not apply our standards equally across the board in fact we are very open about it. Why is it we don't condemn or throw the rest of those countries under the micro scope like we do Israel. Is it because we like thier money, thier Oil, because thier the underdog. Just curious to know why we as a nation can bash the shit of Israel but not the rest of them... Why is it that alot of Canadians see the hamas or palistinians as the underdog living in squlor conditions and we say aahh them poor bastards, instead of the terrorists that they are... Is Israel the only nation responsiable for the palestinians plight ?, who will take them in? Are they free apply to live somewhere else ?