Army Guy

Gerryhatrick I think your missing the piont, Which is that Our government and people of Canada first decided that this was a noble mission, that the people of Afgan needed our help, and in order to assist them We as a nation were told there was going to be a price to pay for that assistance be it in cash and in lives of our soldiers...The nation agree, to help and to the price...What has changed in that time? Now if you put yourself in my boots, for a second, picture yourself at a ramp cerimony in which you are loading good friends that have payed that price with there lives, into a herc. Then that same day, read the headlines splashed over every Canadian paper, that a majority of Canadians don't believe we should be here in Afgan ,and that the NDP party is using thier deaths to promote thier standings in the polls, when they themselfs agreed to sending us over here. So now you spend some time reflecting on the days events and ask yourself "why". and soon you become angry that your lost comrads may have died defending ideals that the Canadian people no longer consider a worth while cause or a hopless cause...You also ask what do they (the Canadian people) know that we the soldiers do not. And what info are they making this decision with... Because this is my second tour here in Afgan and despite everything that the media is reporting things are changing for the better, yes it is painfully slow, but it is still there, we are making a differance. We seen the same things in Bosina which took over 12 years to get to the place it is now, even now Bosina still has NATO troops in it. Nobody wrote that mission off and it cost the lives of over 25 Cdns. Your right, i have no special rights for being a soldier, but rather i hold the same rights and freedoms as every other Canadian citizen and tax payer. And a soldier does know more about Afgan and the situation here than the avg Canadian. It's part of our 6 month work up training, were are given indepth lectures on Afgan history,traits, customs,government workings, tribal history, Language training, on top of studing our enemies tactics , history, traits ,customs etc. I may be no expert but i'm sure i'm qualified to talk about the issue. Here is the problem AGAIN, debate was suppose to happen before Canadians sent us over there, not after, unless things have changed so drastically that we need to rethink our postion. But those that want this debate are spouting things like it is getting to costly, in terms of lives lost..., we are not winning...the russians could'nt do it what makes us think we can, the polls say it's not a good cause, etc etc.... explain why we should not be here ? What has changed since we first arrived. Or are just good at picking my posts apart. without giving a valid reason why?

What do you or miss Joya think will happen if Canada or the rest of Nato pull out of Afgan at this time ?. Cival war, perhaps a return of the taliban? Has anybody got that answer? or is it because we don't give a shit what happens as long as it does not interfer with Hockey night in Canada, or my pogie check... Whom does she think will fill the void when they leave? Yes the NDP has found thier golden star, someone in the AFGAN government that does not think that NATO should be there. to further thier cause which is really to pull out of afgan nothing more, they have no exit stratagy nor do they care to bring one up ,they are concerned with they're image nothing more so that we the military can go on other less dangerous missions and pull out of them before the job is done. Yes we will earn the repution as quiters, but who cares. we got a game to watch...Who cares that Canada has already paid a price of a good many soldiers, and how many billions... I've been in Afgan for little over 3 weeks and have spent a total of 3 days in the so called fortress you talk about or have you not been reading the news. come out of your hole research something before blowing off the steam. Yes give it a try, give us some proof that all we doing is alienating the people and commiting mass murder of inocent Afgans, because the ones of been meeting all week are very well armed and not interested in talking at all . i know you've been busy at the NDP convention and have missed alot , hell i missed you guys as well, had the tea and biscuts ready but none of you guys showed up.

Things are going well, moral is climbing, we still have our moments. it's good to be busy and leave it at that. had to get a new lap top, left my ruck out in the open lets just say it's not bullet proof, in fact nither is my underwear which now has ventalation holes in places i'd rather not talk about. It's a good thing the americans have a PX on the main camp, lots of computers but sold out of underwear. Ther government of Afgan has been democractically elected by the people of Afgan, yes it is being proped up by the US at this time, but it is still the Government of Afgan. They may not have the same ideas as we in the west have about how to run a country. but it is a million times better than the one which was controled by the taliban. Every western nation here is concerned about how things are going , as they should they have billions invested. but to suggest that they have begun to slip back to the taliban times is wrong. And to suggest that uncovers the fact that maybe those that suggest it don't know exactly how bad it was under taliban rule. Those outcomes have already been clearly mentioned time after time. Not only by the military but by our government. but you do have a point the government has not done a very good job in letting the public know just what progress has been made so far. Niether has the media. Defeating the Taliban is a small part of the mission, And when we spend more time on restruction missions than we do combat operations we will know that the taliban have begun to fade into the history books. All of the above, and we can't do that if Canadians are debating "WHY", the question should be "what can we do" to bring this country back from the brink. Your wrong, I did not decide to use up my vacation time in afgan because i thought it was a good cause, I'm here because our Nation "CANADA" decided it was a noble cause and sent me here to carry out the wishes of the Canadian people. As a soldier i would hoped that the Canadian people would have debated the pros and cons prior to deciding to send soldiers into a war zone. So yes i expect that the majority of Canadians should support the mission. And if they did not support sending us over there they should have done something to stop the deployment before the lifes of our young soldiers were lost. Are you saying that you made a mistake, what do we tell those grieving families of those that have payed the ultimate sacrafice already "sorry i've changed my mind". What do we tell the people of Afgan which need us more than ever, "sorry i've changed my mind" your not worth the effort. Perhaps you can give us all an example on what dollar we are chasing? what is Canada's inspirations in the area.? And what would be your statement if they had struck downtown toronto. I'll tell you what it means. The mission in Afgan needs more than just military assets to bring this operation to a close, it needs cash, it needs major construction efforts,and more political reforms, yes it is still early in the mission, but these are the things that need to be debated "not why' we are here in the first place. and while we waste our time debating something that should have been debated before they sent us. This is what adds fuel to the taliban cause, if they are seeing us debating the next step they will see our resolve. something that is not happening in our country. Yes i am obliged to perform the mission that our government has sent me here to do, one that i have been performing for weeks without question,with out whinning. one that i seen some of my comrads covered in blood and torn apart, one that has seen me carry out Canada's policies and decissions via the end of a rifle. one that has seen me watch close friends of mine loaded onto a herc in a casket. I think i've more than earned my right to vioce my opinion just like every other Canadian. As for partisan bullshit , thats your opinon one in which you are entitled. as i am. But i'm the one over here doing my part what are you doing on your end. As for using my postion, as what a grunt in the field, who's life is directly effected by decissions that are made by our government and the people of Canada. Should i be the mindless robot you think i should be, and just be saluting and shouting yes sir...no problem sir...or could i be exericising my right as a Canadain citizen, and tax payer to speak out...I and every soldier here wants this mission to end more than anybody else, we want it to end with a country that has the same chances and oppurtunities as we have. but to do that we need Canadians to stop debating and start acting...pushing our government into taking the lead on this and end this conflict. The fact that a debate is going on after the fact that the Canadian people have already decided to send us over here is just f**ked, it shows not just the soldiers that Canada sent over here, that Canada is not capable of making a decision and sticking to it. But it shows our enemies that we are easily persauded. How many on this board are insightful political commentators, are you one gerry, you've expressed your opinons have you not, why prohibits me from doing so. because i've signed an oath to serve my country, thus lossing any say in what happens in it. Propaganda in which sense of the word, that my opinions are not shared by the NDP, god bless thier soles, or the fact that i'm here right now and am seeing first hand what life in afgan is really like. here is some propaganda for you, I had the honor of sharing my cold lunch with a Afgany girl and our interputer, she was 11 years old, one of the first things i noticed is that she had no hands, i asked her thur the interputer how she lost her hands, she explained that they had been cut off for her crimes when she was 6 years old by the taliban...her crimes were she was caught at school... not only had they cut off her hands with an axe, but had killed her father for allowing her to go to school. And whole time i tried hard not to let the tears well up in my eyes, she was excitied in telling me that she has returned to school, and the top of her class. And she had come over to tell me, thank you for making this possiable... This is one of the reasons why i'm here, this is why i fight the taliban,and those who could maim that little girl for life. The Canadian people could learn alot from this little girl, who's brave and determined act is unwaviored by the consquences. who's only goal in life is to get an education and honor her father. How many politions can bring that to the table ? My whole purpose of me writing these posts is not to spread propaganda, but to educate some in the other side of the story, that is really not being told effectivly by our government or media. to give you one soldiers side of the story. So that our sacrafices that we are asked to make in this country are not in vein, but supported by all Canadians. That they actually do mean something to all canadians, we don't think ourselfs as hero's but rather doing the job that "you", that all Canadians sent us to do. Allow us to finish that job, show us your support by making afgan a safer place, a better place to live for all. What is frustrating for us is that "we "are not being heard, that the soldiers story does not count, that actions in Canada are being taken on our behalf that really go again'st why we are here in the first place. Soldiers are a vocal lot, and they'll be the first to say when the mission sucks or is not going well, if we can trust you the people of canada to send us on the right mission then you should have the same resolution and trust in us. And right now most if not all are saying we are making a difference.

Written thurs sept 7 Thought i give you a soldiers opinion on this topic of Debating Canada's mission in Afgan. one that is shared by the majority of soldiers here. I've spent days reading the same news news from home, and from across the country, I've manged to put my laptop computer into my rucksack, not an easy feat considering it's wieght already. Anyways the news only gets updated every couple of days when someone brings it back to the main camp to get updated. And the news is always of great debate here, amoungst our section. My first reaction when i heard that there is now a new movement to debate our mission here, was to scream WTF are Canadians thinking. Debate what, what is it about this mission that has not been explained over and over. but after a couple of days of thinking, interupted by a few long conversations with the Taliban (over tea and biscuts, sorry our NDP friends did not show up.) Anyways i've come to these conclusions that Some Canadians just don't get it, or refuse to get it. This is confusing for me , because everyone got it when you sent us over here the first time "remember that" excuses that the mission has changed, are BS remember the PPCLI in the mountains,they wer'nt handing out teddy bears. Yes we have moved down south and yes there is more Taliban here, and yes "we" are at more risk. But then again soldiers are'nt complaining in fact most have already served 2 or more tours here "we all volunteered" what does that tell you. It tells me that this mission is of great importance and thru the efforts of our soldiers we will make a postive difference here in rebuilding this nation brick by brick. It's not about drug lords, corupt goverment officals(Canada did'nt have any of those) or for that matter the taliban. It's all about establishing a secure enviroment so some form of government can take root and the people of Afgan can start to rebuild thier lives after decades of war. where children go to school, people work, women have rights. We are doing our part by driving the Taliban out, Canadians need to "as my old Sgt Major would say" Grab your balls and squezze, that pain your feeling is proof you have them, now use them. Canadians sent us over here if "we" can uphold our end , then Canadians should be presuring our government to do what ever it can to bring peace to this region so we can come home. Afgan is going to take more than just the military to bring peace, it's going to take lots of money and other depts to bring this change a reality. The longer you dither and debate we the soldiers pay. get off your asses.

I sadly find myself back at the main camp again, to honor and send off my friends,comrads, brothers in arms, a sad day full of tears, (ya even Army guys cry) a few smuggled illigal beers, even some laughs as we all sit around thinking of happier times with our fallen comrads. I've spent some time reading old news papers and getting caught up on news from home on the web. And with all that has happened in the last couple days was floor by some of the crap that has made headlines in our country. a PERFECT example below, How could these guys come up with this garbage, why would they attempt to kick dirt on the reputation that "we" have paid for in blood,sweat, and today tears. I really hope Canadians are taken note. I really hope that those that believe that crap would take a few minutes to educate themselfs on the situation here, and to make an intelligent decission for themselfs. I would love to take the whole NDP party out on patrol, and show them the real terrorists ,and thier handy work. My Webpage I'd like to thanks those for thier kind words, and it does matter, and it does mean something to hear them. The computer i'm using is not the fastests so i'll pack it all in one post. Rovik: I hope you did not get the wrong message from my last post, It was not my intention to embrass anyone into supporting the mission, nor did i intend to say that you do not support Canada's soldiers. my message was that without the support of the Canadian people, all that we do here is for not. And for the the vioce of our soldiers not to go unheard. This is not Iraq, please do not mix the two, I'm not the only soldier to come out and say we are making a difference. but we have just arrived in the southern portion of Afgan, you need to have patients (spelling) peace is not a fast food business. give us the time to prove to all that it can be done. Not true, we've always had an aggresive role in Afgan, even up north. Fighting is heavier down south because we've moved into thier turf. We are not here to appease the americans but to assist the afgans, anything more than that is just bashing. There is no safe peacekeeping mission, the whole objective is to help those in need, and thats what we are doing here in Afgan. I can give you examples of other soldiers opinons as the one below. My Webpage My Webpage The locals support whom ever is going to support them, thats why its so important for us to destroy the Taliban and start rebuilding this country. As for keeping an eye open ,yes a combat zone will do that, we've all heard of murphys law...As for the direction of the military, yes there is big changes, but years of neglect from our government is to blame for that, changes are needed to just stay afloat, and carry the Canadian flag on all these missions. the NDP does not know the first thing about peacekeeping, to them it's about a plane load of soldiers and a box of teddybears. Peacekeeping is about keeping the peace in a war zone, keeping two fully armed combatants apart with little more than a rifle and bino's. well over 110 Canadians soldiers have died peacekeeping. but that is another story. Anyways got to go, my rides is getting ready to head back. PS tell the NDP party we are holding talks with the taliban all week panjwai district there welcome to stop by have a tea, shoot the poop with the bad guys or maybe explain to all us how we've become a bunch of terrorists..

I'm here in Afgan right now, taking a few minutes i have to myself to write this as i believe the message is important to me and the many other that are serving here and in Canada. Mr. Layton is calling for our return and using the deaths of my comrads to drive this message home to you guys on the home front. It is not the message that we want to send, It's disheartening to read the news from home only to learn that a majority of Canadians do not support "our" mission, i said "ours" because it seems to be just "OURS" and not Canada's mission which is to bring about peace and stabilty in Afgan. It was a noble cause when we first arrived and nothing has changed despite what others are saying and it is still a noble cause today. I've preached this a thousand times before i left and now that i'm here for the second time i still believe more than ever. That Canada is making a difference here in Afgan ,yes we do have our set backs but life here in afgan is getting better for all. below are comments made by soldiers that just returned from the last roto. My Webpage My Webpage The theme is the same "are we making a differance" YES, would you go back "YES" Canadians need to hear this message. We are the ones that see everyday the improvements here in AFGAN, we are the ones that are spilling our sweat, blood,and tears here. The least Canadians can do is listen, we're not asking you to don a uniform and walk in our boots just listen to what we have to say. We need your support, not 40 % not 60 % but we need everyones support. I know most Candians do support our soldiers "with exception of those few that gave out those one finger salutes in Edmonton" But we need Canadians to support the mission, we need to read in the news that Canadians are 100% behind us, with your support we can accomplish anything "including bring peace to a region that has not seen peace for a long time. It's in our history to accomplish the unthinkable, the impossiable, Vimy Ridge comes to mind,along with a long list of others proving we Canadian soldiers, can accomplish anything with your support.

“Should the UN be taken seriously?” By all means the UN should be, but it does need to be reformed taken apart in it's entirity and rebuilt to reflect todays modern world. the UN has taken on to many responsibilties some it excells in others it is a complete failure"peace keeping" a prime example. The UN is great at making new inter-national laws, rights, etc but has no means to enforce them, that have proven sucessful. Human rights is one example "great concept" but we have 2 of the orginal 5 paying little heed to them. so basically we have established guide lines that a nation may or may not heed, without consquences that have proven effective to ensure that they do. There is no equal voice in the UN, the orginal 5 have the power to veto anything. all it takes is one veto. getting approval for anything is an up hill battle. every country that is a member should have the same power one vote "with the power of veto going to the UN HQ's only" one that is elected by all the assembly. And only under exceptional circumstances. The statement of the UN under primarily US control is an false, the orginal 5 make it almost impossable to do this. There is more examples of just the Iraqi war, the land mine issue, Lebanon issue , back dues owed, etc.

jdobbin: I agree, as long as part of that discussion actually looks at "have all measure that every dept been taken and have we've given them the time to do the job". I actually agree with Harpers decission to leave us in Afgan, we 've not been given the time required to do the job, it has cost Canada bils in infra structure, moving equipment, purchasing mission specific equipment, that with a new mission will have to be spent again. And the troops still believe it is a worth while mission and they are making a difference.

AndrewL: Andrew you have made some bold statements perhaps you can back them-up with some facts, refs or links. Such as the one below. And what of Samir Al-Kuntar, Marwan Barghouthi, Nasim nesser, i suppose they never recieved a trial. Never to be heard of again, lst time i heard of that in fact they all had they own web sites. Can the Hezzbullah say the same of the 2 soldiers, when was the last time we heard from them. So there was been trials and they have been heard from constantly. In fact you bring no proof of your comments. Again bold statements which you have provided no refs or links or proof. Just here say. But they are one in the same and one can not exist without the other. (contrary to ME stupidity) it is a play on words to allow the hezbullah to step back and not be racist or caught up in the idea that they want to eliminate the entire state of Israel just the zionist entity, which would include everyman,women and child. . below is taken from the Hezbullah manifesto under the heading the necessity for the destruction of Israel, pretty much self explanatory, It's not under the heading of Zionist entity, but destruction of Israel. The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile. Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated. We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_Manifesto" And here i thought it was Canadians making bold statements that the Israelis state or entity should be obliterated. based on fictious claims. Another good thing about being a Rual Canadian bumpkin is i'm free to choose to do almost anything, including denouncing my canadian citizenship, and moving to another country, like lebanon. but then again i don't think the Hezbullah has alot of support programs ,that young people with alot of time on thier hands can take advantage off.

jdobbin: The have a saying in the Army, a Soldier is not happy if he's not bitching, it's when he stops bitching that you have to worry. In the case of Afgan there is not to many soldiers that would come out a say " we are not making a difference, that we are not helping the people of afgan rebuild. But rebuilding a country takes more than soldiers it takes a major effort by our government and other depts Yes thier is a PRT element there but it really needs more funding and to be enlarged, those are the guys that do the winning of hearts and minds. They are the ones that rebuild power plants, schools ,hospitals. I truely believe that these are the things that will defeat the Taliban. It is a long mission, but if it was not this one then it would be another, so there is no break for the soldiers most soldiers in the army experiance a tour once every year and a half, but out of that time 6 months is spent training, so you get a year with your family, then you get a year away from them... which is why it is so important to us that the job gets done and it stays done, that we spend the time and get it right. because we want all our sacrifice to be worth while. 4 years from now things will look alot different than today, 4 years ago we were in kabul, with the taliban controling most of the country today we are in the south and the taliban are hiding for the most part in Pakistan, every day they loose more control over the land...It's the people we have to work on winning the heart and minds. but most Afganis want what everyone wants peace, to be able to live a normal life... Undoing over 30 years of conflict is not going to be easy, and it will take a long time.

jdobbin: If that was entirely true then Taliban activities would drop off around june or july each year. as temp reach the 50's around this time frame. A quick google check and it is evident that we were involved in operations past these dates up to oct nov 2004, and 2005. one should also check American operations in the south for the same time period. because we just moved move from the north (Kabul) last year. Again what is being printed is not exactly what is happening on the ground. where they are getting thier info i'm not sure but it is not very accurate. I'll let you know in a few weeks, but from what are being told prior to going over by personal that where just over there is things have improved since we first set up in Kanadar, Yes there is a problem with electricity but that is just one of many small problems. considering when we first arrived in Kanadar it was the wild west. Don't let any of those politicians fool you, they have been promising a break forever, but there is always a mission they have that needs to get done...Besides the liberals already had Africa in mind when they made that decission. Trust me when i say nobody gets sent over to Afgan that is not ready, does not know thier job, and those that say they don't know how to put on thier body armour is lying or just retarded. on top of all the basic training, combat arms training , every indiv must still complete an intensive 6 month "Afgan" mission specific training program before deploying. there are exceptions to pers that vist or on assistant vists but those guys are restricted to camp and require an escort every where. What the forces needs and has been asked for repeatily is a 4 year break from all missions, and a major investment in our infra structure both regular and training infra structure. But we both know that any major cash flow is not going to happen so the forces will not be expanded at any steady rate for some time.

jdobbin: Look you have the same access to this material as i do, i've tried to give you another prespective from a guy thats been there. I don't know what else to tell you. except there is 2200 Canadian soldiers in afgan right now that live this everyday. E-mail them ,they would love to tell you thier story, one that is not bent to sell more papers, one that has the good,bad and the ugly mixed in. Try and keep an open mind, It's fustrating for soldiers because they know we are making progress there everyday, but the public say where ,what, i don't see any...but it is there because they see it, live it, ...The media is selling you a product, Soldiers are'nt selling anything. I did'nt say we have not taken down poppy fields, i said in my 2 tours we have taken down one, present combat operations don't leave any time to take down fields. Besides taking down one out of the thousands is really not making a dent. Thank you, Morale is always higher at the start of the mission, everyone is eager to go out and make thier mark, to improve on what the last roto has done. The PPLCI battle group were hit hard, it's worse with the fact that these guys had already spent 6 months in the region, and had fought some major battles, to survive all that and to die just weeks before going home is a real kick in the grion.

jdobbin: US forces are still in Kandahar, in fact Canadians share the same base, with the US making up the bulk of the forces there. Worse ,i guess that depends on what you call worse, The bombings have gone from once a day to perhaps once every week or two, there are more people at the markets, more going to school, more working, more kids in the street. Yes there are problems with electricity, a favorite target of the insurgents, and a fairly easy one to knock out. I don't know where you got your info on the "talibans first summer conflict" but it is false. A majority of the fighting stops during the winter season, the mounatain passes become unpassable ,they can't get food, water, ammo,,wpns in from Pakistan, and can't get thier wounded out into pakistan. During the winter months there are a few bombings etc but nothing like the activity during the spring and summer. We've been in Afgan since 2002, and have been engaged with the taliban every since, they have always come out of the winter break in the spring with a new force, and remained until the first winter storms. So to say this is thier first summer conflict is wrong. Wrong or right the west does have a habit of leaveing before the job is completed. As for Vietnam doing fine would depend on how you determined freedoms, life under a communist regime is not very rosey. That commitment was made during the period that the government had declared DND's time to regroup and reorg, that did not happen. As for the training, one would be hard pressed to get a more intensive training program than is already set for afgan. Sort of train for the worse every thing else is gravy. As for taking on another role, what is wrong with finishing the one we have now, because it's not popular in Canada is that the reason, because the US thought it all up, so we need to show the world that we are not US pupets. The Afgan people deserve more than that , our soldiers deserve more than that. The Canadian people have no one to blame but themselfs for not having the military resources available for more than one mission. They also have to come to the conclusion that these missions take decades to see thru to sucessful conclusion. And if we are not going to give our military the time we have to ask our selfs what is the piont , why are we sacraficing our soldiers lifes if we are not going to stay.

jdobbin: Let me ask you this, do you believe everything you read, I've completed 2 tours in Afgan already and will be starting my 3 rd in just under a week. I've only been on one operation that burned a poppy field or a set of fields. there was some operations by the british but they to have since stopped, for the reasons i quoted, we can't fight the taliban and the drug lords at the same time. So have they lied, not exactly, but they have not told the whole truth. Besides in the last 6 months just when would the Canadian army had the time to burn fields they have been on one operation after another. Hence why i said for the most part we have left them alone. Hey you don't have top take my word for it. vist the DND web site, and E-mail or write a soldier over there right now. or go to the PPCLI web site and ask them..ask them how many poppy fields we burned. Again because it is written makes it true. 400.00 dollars a month is alot of money to them, those we have captured had thier life savings on them about a few dollars. it's not like they go to the bank or have direct deposit. I'm not saying they are not being payed with drug money, just that is not where they are getting the majority of thier money from.. yes there is alot of drug money out there but most of it belongs to the drug lords not the taliban. and you'll find it's not just NATO soldiers but all infidels have a price some more than others.

Charles: Yes, there is a third, actually thier are plenty, but what kinf of econemy were you expecting from a nation that has been at war for more than 30 years. My Webpage Why are nations interested in our econemy, it fills a supply and demand and thier is a dolaar to be had. Actually Black market is a term they used in the link i provided, what would you call it. In other words you get a product and service at a reduced cost, "if you had accepted" and the roofer gets to cheat on taxes owed. I'm sure they don't want a major American or NATO presence in the area, one that could threaten they're own goals for the area. or have them in a postion to influence other interests. My Webpage My Webpage But then again are you saying that all these nations just want thier piece of the drug trade. Id like to see a link on that. You must be right, thats why Canadian troops are sacraficing themselfs for , to ensure Canada gets it share of the pie. are you really that jaded, or can you prove any of this.

jdobbin: Yes they are 3 years old, but that does not make them any less valid, Like i said already, the taliban does use drug money , but it is not the majority of it's funding. Most of thier money comes from outside groups,indiv, and nations. There are for all intensive purposes 4 groups of combat forces in afgan, Afgan Army/police, NATO forces, drug lords, and taliban /insurgent forces. The last two are not linked, with the drug warlords in afgan for themselfs, not supporting the taliban. NATO has been dealing with mostly Taliban forces, but for the most part has not bother with the opium fields for serveral reasons ,Not enough troops on the ground , and for the farmers it is the product of chioce because it pays the bills which feeds thier families. and for most it is a choice, grow it, or join the taliban because they pay the bills. Trust me when i say that most Taliban forces we've captured are not getting payed anything like you've mentioned 400.00 dollars is more likely a yearly payout..And we've been combating the Taliban for years now, not just this summer, we've just moved into the south this year, but we as a nation been fighting these guys for years.

Is that why where over there for, a piece of the drug trade. Give me a break... from the first link: Much of the funding came through a black-market banking system called hawala, which is common throughout the Middle East and South Asia. But Mr. Hamidullah says that Pakistan generally sent its money by hand, using ISI officers. "During Taliban times, Pakistani colonels would bring money to support Taliban soldiers," he says. Today's Taliban continues to receive funding, he adds, some of it from rich Arab donors, but much of it from the intelligence agencies of Russia, Iran, and Pakistan. "There are some countries that are against the polices of the US and the United Nations, and they support the guerrillas. The most important role belongs to Russia, Iran, and Pakistan." The second link: does not mention the drug trade at all in fact it suggests that the russians are not happy with the US being in that region, nothing about opium... The third link : again explains how the black market system works nothing about opium. So how do you come up with the only 2 things traded out of Afgan is opium and terror. Am i missing something ?

jdobbin: For the most part coverage in Canadian media has been very good, reporting the cas numbers of all involved in the conflict, as you seen in the CBC coverage. The US are not the only ones quoting the situation is improving, so is the Canadians, so our our soldiers, Things are getting better, across most of the country, everything you hear in the news is about the south, as NATO has opened up new bases thier right in the heart of Taliban territory, but one must keep track of the whole country, opening of schools and hospitals in the north or kabul, do not sell many papers, Yes thier tactics are changing and so is ours, thats the nature of war, what works today may not work tommorow. We forget that the Taliban use to have an army , and airforce, in fact at the start of this conflict they flew over 20 mig-21 a/c commanded hundards of tanks, apc's with helicopter support. and today are back to the mountains with donkeys and sandals. they used to number 100,000 plus, todays est is well under 1000 i'd personally put that number at 10 times that but i have no proof. So is there progress being made you tell me ? I think you'll be surprise at who is actually giving funding to the Taliban. My Webpage My Webpage My Webpage The Taliban do not have the manpower base to control Afgans opuim trade, yes they are making money off it, but they are into alot of black market themes. Most of the opuim trade is now controled by independant war lords, which are not tied to the taliban but rather in it for thier own profit. Elections did happen but the south was controled by the taliban, in such numbers that the Afgan army and police could not combat by themselfs hence why NATO has more presence in the south now, taking the fight directly to taliban controled areas. That being said we are not doing a majority of the fighting ,most of the fighting is being done by the afgan army with NATO in a supporting role. such as with the last attack. We are making a difference every day we get stronger and they get weaker. Lets just take a look at these countries today shall we, lebanon most of the south is in rubble, do you think that would have happened if the US had stuck with keeping the peace what would it have looked like today, would we have had the Hezbullah..I think those examples you cite are examples of what happens when the west does not stay the course and abandons the mission after it gets to tough. solving these problems takes dacades and we do not have the will to stay the course. None of these countries are better off in fact they are worse.

Michael Hardner: What about the Fed governments Harrassment laws, which state harrassment is anything that a indiv percieves to be offensive, degrading, or not proper behavior. such as offensive lang, offensive behavior, etc etc. In which case opens up a whole can of worms because it allows indiv to precieve anything as offensive. I can not comment on what is happening outside the dept of national defense but these new harrasment laws have taken a whole new meaning into curtailing our freedom of speach. For instance in a private conversation with close friends all male, a "dirty" joke was told, this joke was overheard by a third party sitting in another part of the office whom considered it to be offensive, charges were laid, also the same joke was retold by another person, again someone took offense and in the investagation it was revealed that this person heard it from the orginal source which again charges were laid again'st both. The punishment included a 300.00 fine for the orginal story teller, plus a 3 day harrassment seminar. Now imagine if you will a bunch of soldiers not allowed to tell dirty jokes or for that matter curse like a bunch of sailors...is our freedom of speach being curtailed ? every day these laws are testing new ground, for what is percieved offensive, with serveral cases of men charged for scratching themselfs in public, actually just outside the mens bathroom. but you get the piont. Now alot of these cases don't make it to trial (DND Court) but i've personal taken this harrassment course 3 times now for cursing.

jdobbin : They are noted, in the same news papers as the ones as the canadian soldiers are reported, So what piont are you trying to make here with the constant re-reporting of deaths in Afgan ? Yes the fighting has been intense in the last month mostly due to Nato operations in the area, plus opening alot of new patrol bases along the pakistan border. The majority of the insurgents are not funded thru the opium trade but rather thru Muslim sources, Yes some of the drug trade profits are going to the insurgents but nothing compared to the other Muslim sources. And for the most part coalition forces are leaving the opuim dealers alone, like you said the country is dirt poor and the farmers have to make a living some how, pushing them off drug production only pushes them towards the insurgents side. Yes they do attack schools,muslims,anything not following thier proposed beliefs. but not in the same sense as what we are seeing in Iraq, one religious sect fighting another sunni vs shi'a for example . As 80 % of afgans are sunni, 19 % shi'a 1 5 other, the taliban are made up of serveral muslim faiths. thier goal is to reverse the clock ,bringing about a more restricted version of the same muslim faith. Nation building does not happen over night, it took well over 12 years to assist Bosina in standing up on it's own, and they were not ravaged by 30 years of war. Where do you stand are you for the mission or against it.

jdobbin: That was not my piont i was trying to make , Ever since this post was started you've constantly posted up the death of all the NATO soldiers. For what reasons i do not know, So make your piont. The situation in Afgan is not even close to that of Iraq, sectarian violence "where did you get that" the violence is between coalition forces, the taliban, and occasional drug lords. NATO has already taken up the task, hence why all the deaths on both sides. My Webpage Not saying that NATO has made a difference yet or not, come this spring we will know for sure as the taliban would have had thier rest ,mountain passes free from snow. And when we yell across the valley GAME ON and nobody replies then we'll know....until then the British Gen is blowing smoke up your bum.

I'm just curious what exactly were they on a fact tour for. Did we actually pay them to go over and find out if the Hezbullah is a terrorist organization , or was it something else. And when are they going to Israel. or did they run out of klenex and crying towels and have to come back.

72 taliban killed yesterday, not that we are keeping score right jdobbin. My Webpage

The 747 is a good aircraft, for what it was designed for hauling small cargo boxes etc and passengers, and in a military use it great for getting large amounts of troops and small cargo into a strategic airfield.. such as what our polaris pas/cargo ac do in Saudi , from there smaller a/c are used such as the herc to bring all this equipment forward into a tactical airfields such as kanadar. However even thou the C-17 is a strategic airlifter if need be it can also be flown into tactical airfields. This would be done, if equipment that was required could not be flown in by herc, such as hvy armour vehs. The difference between a tactical and strategic aircraft is normally just price and size...both share most if not all the designs. A lease is just that, we rent them, and if there was ever a crisies the US could in fact pull them back for there own use, on top of the lease we are responsable for all the maint, and upkeep of those a/c , yes it is alittle cheaper but at the end of the day we do not own them. sort of you dent it , you bought it... Lets also remember that with a purchase you are actually buying into the tech, if further advances are made with this a/c we will be informed and have that opition to purchase those as well...It also allows us to develope our own tech to put on these a/c...where as a lease you don't have that opition...believe it or not Canada does very well in these fields. No there is not other than perhaps buying off the shelf from the US. or if there was enough orders to warrent reopening the assembly line. also keep in mind it is just the assembly line that is closing not the lines which produce the parts. Lets remember who was in power at the time, and how tight the purse strings were....Subs were not on DND's list of things to buy today, in fact they were'nt even on the list of things to buy tommorrow..But DND does not make those decissions, the government of the day does..The subs would have been a great deal if it had not taken 7 years to close it, in that time things went bad , to completely rusted out. Our government process of purchasing things is very flawed, with heaps of red tape,forums, and debates, just going from idea to actual purchase can take as long as 10 years, in that time tech has changed, requirements have changed everything has changed and we are stuck using something that is already obsolite before it's delivered. These new contracts for the C-17 and C130 are supposed to be fast tracked it's been 2 years already, and contracts still have not been signed "close but still not signed" Another flaw is how we purchase items, DND gives the government the specs, for instance our new fleet of trucks, the government "all civilians i might add takes those very broad specs and rounds up a few samples, DND then tests them picks out the top three , the government then decides which one it is going to purchases, in the case of the LSVW we purchased, DND rated it the worse truck of all the samples provided, in fact the government ordered it to be retested until it passed, it was only after DND took it to the desert in the states that it passed. Because it could be manufactured in BC by a canadian firm western star. Most of our equipment is bought this way, not because it is the best but because it has other pay offs like made in Canada, or creates Canadian jobs, which is good, but we tend to forget someones life depends on these vehs and just because it was made in Canada does not mean it is the best.

jdobbin: 747 is a civilian airliner, which requires a very large prepared runway, military operations require an aircraft that has a shorter landing and take off capabilities, and has the landing gear to handle unprepare airfields, it's wieght alone prevents it from landing on anything but prepared tacmac surface. where a C-17 could land on a semi prepared dirt runway. the 747 does not have a rear ramp to allow large vehs to roll on roll off, it's side cargo doors are not large enough to handle say a LAV armoured veh. it's cargo floors are not reinforced to handle the wieghts of armoured vehs. because of this lack of ramp, it requires more specialized equipment to load and off load. That and the fact the 747 is a much larger a/c than the c-17 so space is a factor when your handling alot of aircraft in a short period of time. Also the 747 takes longer to off load, On the C-17 the cargo floor actually allows the cargo to slide out the back and dropped on the ground allowing the entire a/c to be offloaded with no equipment at all in mere minutes...The aircraft actually does not stop, it taxis up with the area they want the cargo off loaded the ramp is lower and Aircraft pallets pushed out the back onto the ground. or the veh is actually driven off . All while the a/c is still in motion once off loaded it puts the ramp up and proceeds to back on to the runway and takes off again.. As for the 747 how long does it take you to get your luggage from an aircraft, and how much equipment does it take...remember these aircraft operate in war zones, and make for big targets, not something you want when your the pilot. or a baggage handler.