Army Guy

normanchateau: Norm is there anything you like about the mission in afgan ? -So far we have establish that you do not like "thier" religion and it's influence on thier government. -You don't like the fact that some of thier government is made-up of criminal's. - you don't like the fact that a large portion of thier GDP is for the drug trade. - you don't agree with the fact that alot of Aganis make thier living ,thru the drug trade. - You believe that we should withdrawal all of our assistance for the above reasons, that we should punish "ALL" afganis for the actions of a few... What you've failed to do is come up with reasonable solutions, you are very good at picking apart the solutions now in place ,but have yet to come up with a better solution yourself. And your statements are leading me to believe that you as well as a majority of Canadians are not all that well informed about the problems in Afgan, or you are holding the Afganis people to the same high standard as most Canadians try to achieve...but not all do... I'm curious how much religion effects our governments decissions, or any decission that effects our lives.. I'd also be curious to how much the drug trade is worth here in Canada. I'd also be curious just what percentage of people in our government have been or still are involved in some sort of illigal behavior. And if we can answer negitively to any of those questions what gives us the right as Canadians to judge another nation. what gives us the moral high ground. In December 2001, the Government of Canada adopted Bill C‑24, An Act to Amend the Criminal Code (Organized Crime and Law Enforcement). Ushered in as “strong anti-gang legislation,” Bill C‑24 was intended to provide law enforcement officials with the tools necessary to combat organized criminal groups effectively and to help, among other things, to make inroads against drug trafficking and the various social problems that normally accompany it. The magnitude of those problems is indicated by the sums of money involved: illegal drug sales in Canada have reached an estimated $7 or $18 billion a year,(34) and their economic costs (including costs to the health care system, lost productivity, enforcement, property crimes committed by addicts, etc.) as much as $5 billion a year.(35)

normanchateau: The last time i check the leader of Afganistan was not a religious leader. Yes the Afganis government is influenced by religious leaders...But what about our government are you saying that the Abortion issued is not influenced by religion, how many other topics out thier have a religious flare to them such as gay marriage etc etc at what piont does your defination kick in, how much influence does religion have to have before it's declared a theocracy...

In this case the cross is not a christian referance, but rather an inter-national one indicating a grave marker, and is used in many different religions at the time.... During WWI most troops were buried with wooden crosses, which were later replaced with a white stone tablet, retanglar in shape with a slightly curved top after the first world war... Starting at the center of the acrhed top is a maple leaf, below that is your religious symblom ie a cross or star of david, the other religions i'm not sure of as i did not or have not seen any other religious markings...below that is the indiv info, ie date of death, his name ,date born etc etc, then at the bottom any family remarks, ie here lies our only son etc etc These tablets are and have been the standard since after WWI and have not changed since...and are still used today in the new war grave site in Ottawa.. Most common wealth grave sites are marked with a large cross with a sword on it...note i said most not all, and these are eurpean sites.. And everyone is right this is very stupid, but what i find disturbing is we allow it to happen, to appease whom, grade three teachers do we re-write history 100 or 200 years from now when "for sake of argument" the white christian Canadian is the minority...I'm not a racist by no means but if i'm going to sacrafice my life for Canada i want history to state exactly those events, as they happened warts and all, No one should have that power to re write history it should be taught as it actually happened so we may all learn from it.... But then again Canada is guilty of re-writing history for sometime, or conviently removing it, i'll use the latest attempt ,the Special service force as an example, or just not teaching it is another example...do we do our selfs any favours by removing it or just ignorning it....or are we doomed to repeat it...

I want to take a few minutes and repeat my thanks, not only to those that posted, but to all that braved the bad weather and those that gave 2 mins to say a pray and say thanks. It takes more than soldiers to make a nation, to conquor an enemy, it takes all of us... Although it is difficult to define just what it means to be Canadian or what values and morals we claim to have in common I will say that, it is all Canadians that make me proud to wear my uniform, it is the actions of all Canadians that Snaps me to attention and salute when i hear our National anthem. Thank you all for giving me the honour to wear my uniform for our great nation.

Figleaf. Because the are terrified of them, and there is not enough security available thru Nato, to watch over them 24 hours a day...The taliban know this...and use it very effectivily... Can i ask you have you ever been hungry, i don't mean you missed lunch, but rather not eaten in a week or so, and there is no work available, and to top all this off you have a family...Taliban offer 5 dollars a day to fight the west....you become desparite and start believing in the poison they are preaching....Were not talking thousands here but rather hundards out of millions thats not widely supported last time i checked... jdobbin: There are schools in Kanadar , and thier are kids going to school there. but that won't bring the support the president wants will it. again i stress that one should not believe everything one reads in the media...everyone has an agenda, in this case money and support.... here is something that did not make the nightly news, this Orfange has a school, repaired by Canadians... My Webpage

normanchateau You still have not listed any countries free from coruption, And nor do i see Canada on that list, so why do you have such high standards for Afgan when in fact our country is not living up to them...

Bradco: Yes there is a distinction in levels of morality, in peace time, when we are all craving out a living and watching the late night news...but part of warfare is destroying the will of the people as well, to drive them in forcing a peace...hence why the allieds bombed germany cities, to have thier people force thier governments in surrender or cease operations...they did this and we still do it today knowing full well it is again'st the conventions...Most nuclear wpns are targeted again'st civilian population centers...what military target could be big enough to cover a raduis of 300 kms....not many and yet 100 mega tons is standard nuk wpn....it was designed to kill populations not military targets...But the conventions state we can't target them be it for defense or offense.... It's during limited conflicts that the conventions come in to play and our own people force the adherance to them...IE to limit collateral damage when attacking etc etc...until the engagement grows and then the conventions are thrown out the window, and our people no longer care.... To sum it up, On the battle field it is kill or be killed, and conventions are either bent or dismissed, without much thought, there is no moral high ground just survival....and when you boil it all down, that is what a soldier will do survive.. All nations have broken the conventions, the carpet bombings before normandy landings moral or immoral, they knew those towns were full of peace loving frenchmen as well as germans....yet they were light up like a christmas tree...there are examples after examples...look at the destruction brought on by both sides...most towns and cities were flattened, look at any pictures and you'll see plenty of collatoral damage, not to excuse it, but it is part of war... It all comes down to what we as a nation are willing to except, and what we expect from our soldiers...

Figleaf: Bullshit ? the former Taliban regime is not gone, but rather hiding amounst the regular Afgan citizens, or in Pakistan where they can terrorize them at will. where the can spread thier pioson, and propganda at will. don't let them fool you they are thugs,murders,and scumbags that really do require a bullet...Have no mercy or shed no tears for them as they would have none for you.... Sound cold, i've seen the results of taliban crimes first hand, and they have made me sick to think man is capable of such things...and i've been in combat before...and thought i'd seen it all...the cutting off of a 6 year olds hands, ripping a man in two with a truck, the running of a pike thru a mans beaten body, and standing it up in front of a towns entrance and allowing him to bleed out, ...sounds like the 16th century...but here it is everyday... that being said they are recruiting any Muslim from any where to help them in thier holy war....Money talks in this country and so does religion, combine both and they have no problem with recruiting young men to do there bidding...These young men believe in thier cause and have become Taliban and everything they stand for...They want to control the Afgan people, in every aspect of thier lives... So when you ask who is a taliban, it is anyone who picks up a wpn to defend the taliban way of life, by it for money or for religion...they brainwash these young men into fighting and dying. SO please stop crying for these guys, a majority of the Afgan people do not support these people willingly... And Canada has signed on to help plant these guys because we were asked to by the Afgan people. normanchateau: If this is your only reason for not supporting this mission, you need another excuse...Name me one government that is not had corruption...any country....that is free from curruption...As for the way they run it , we were not asked to start a "western style government" in afgan but one the afgan people wanted, that would still allow them choices...We in the west need to come to grip with the idea that our form of government is not the best form, what may work for us will not work for everyone... cybercoma: Where did you get this from, Some economics prof been pumping this crap out, have you seen the price tag for any of these missions, compare the cost it's impact is on our GDP, we've spent only 2.5 bil in the last 6 years...how is that keeping our enconomy floating...that would not even keep PEI floating... And by your logic the US should be swimming in cash, but wait a minute are they not running a major deficit....and that is how we keep the economy floating... I'd be interested in seeing how you came to this conclusion perhaps read a few of the links you got your info from...

Yes gerry i will fall on my sword if that is what it will take i appoligise for the whole post and if i could take it all back i would, it was written with to much emotion..

Geoffrey: Geoffrey make a good piont here "nothing" distinguishes us just the methods employed to kill. The east and the west are equally guilty of breaking the convention or planning to break the convention in future conflicts. Proving the convention is only a guide, and then only used by the victor to punish someone for the conflict.... I'll explain, Geneva convention states that it is forbiden to purposily target civilians, but if you were to ask any nation with nuclear wpns what thier targets were, they would be population centers...i mean what military target takes a 100 megaton nuclear device to destroy it. we're talking a blast raduis of 300 kms,or more...and fully employ them knowing that the radation hazards will cover thousands of km and effect millions...This wpn alone breaks most of the conventions, and yet all sides have them and are willing to use them...moral right or wrong.... There are dozens of wpns platforms that fall into the same catagory... My piont is nothing in war is morally right, no side has the moral high ground...dead is still dead, just how it came about is really the question...be it shot, or slowly beheaded, or fed to the lions... So the conventions really are not to govern nations conduct as per say, but rather the avg soldiers conduct, not only to keep some sanity to warfare, but to keep it from turning into total war, where thier are no rules... Because man, and i mean both genders are capable of some very sick shit....and yes i'm talking about all of us not just soldiers, but all of us....and it does not take training to cross over the edge just alittle exposure or tramatic event and once you've crossed that line it's very hard to come back....to what we consider normal behavior...

gerryhatrick : Your right Gerry, i already said i appoligize for my poor judgement in choosing the title..

Blackdog: I don't see us making any promises we can't keep. This is not just a military mission as per say, but what they call full spectrum operations, one in which we are involved in combat operations, stability operations and humanitarian assistance, all at the same time sometimes in the same town or city...and we are making advances in all three areas but i want to stress it is not just the Canadian military here, we have diplomats, RCMP, and other government organizations here all working hard at making this work... Your right, but it's a bad apple we want to throw out, while we are here. Al Qaeda operations may have been curtailed, but they are still alive and still a problem in Afgan...despite what the press puts out there we are still engaging Al Qaeda members... We do have a bench mark, it's to bring peace and stability to thier country and to assist them in the rebuilding process. how long that will take i have no idea, how long were we in Cyprus, bosina, more than 10 years minimum... Let me ask you the same question, how much is your freedom and your rights worth to you...and how much would you allow your government to spend on keeping them....How much of our current surplus would you allow our government to grant Afgan this gift... Again we are asking what does afgan have to offer in return...does there have to be a return before we decide to take action...Dafar has what to offer Canada, Rwanda, next to nothing should we cross them off the list of future missions... A single terrorist attack that has cost the lives of over 30 Canadian civilians, a single attack that we have spent bils into increasing our security...and how has it effected our personal lifes, at the borders, airports, ports etc etc... Our security is so lack ,,,still after the bils...that anyone with some planning and organization could be a threat to us...I mean had all those attacks suceeded they could have crippled the US econemy, defense, and our country is tied to thiers in every aspect....what could they have done with 20 airplanes... Ok i'll take a step back, Right now if all the facts pionted to Afgan being a waste of time, resources and lifes, i'd be the first to be beating that drum, get me out of here...but our nation has decided it's size of it's military and how much we are going to spend on aid and right now we can only do one mission at a time....it makes sense to stay here finish this job and get it right the first time. instead of hopping around the world trying to put out spot fires...let the americans do that, besides we don't have the resources or should i say the military because we have lots of resources we just squander them.... I had to chuckle about the values remark because it's true. But i'd like to think that Canadians have alot of good values worth contributing to other nations. Is it our job to do so NO, but i do think we have some responsiabilty as one of the worlds leading nations to ensure a better future not only for our next generation but to all future generations. I agree it's not the best way, but it is the way of the future...alot of relief agencies refuse to go into the places we go into...trust me if i had a choice i would not travel there either....is it worth it, every trip ... and we will get better at it...because we have to...

Genva convention was not written or concieved to give one side an advantage over another. It was written for the most part to govern the conduct of warfare and reduce the needless deaths of inocent people. It is very black and white, their are no grey areas in it. Mind you, to fully understand it , it needs to be explained by a lawyer that specializes in this area. but it does cover every subject including the Terrorist clauses. breaking "any" of the conventions is punishable by a war crimes tribulal, that being said rarely do any of the victors get punished...For example did any of the allied leaders get punished for the mass fire bombings again'st dresden etc etc...My piont here is this the conventions are not fairly applied across the board. And i'd like to add this, a nation at war has to decide what actions it can live with in order to win...I say win because one does not go to war to lose...OK maybe france Joking, I say this because when it's all over we are the ones that have to live with our actions, we can re write history, we can change history, but we can not undo our actions.... As for the example of the women and the Isrealis soldier , this is not a good example at all and many arguements could made for both sides Again'st or for the conventions...it is clear that the soldier here took the path he believed was right...although easy for all of us to sit here and pick those actions apart, he did not have the same time nor facts we do...he had but split seconds before he acted...

FTA Lawyer: Your right, and i showed poor judgement in my chioce of topic titles. And for that i appoligise. I can not explian why it happens , it just does, as for the most part effects the younger crowds, 17 -25 years old, and it effects most military towns...although not as much in those towns that have been to Afgan , for example Edmonton, Petawawa, these towns have suffered military deaths and the towns for the most part are very pro military...and very friendly towards all military... But other towns are not so friendly, to the piont were Military members are advise where not to go, and to travel in groups.

FTA Lawyer: Yes that is exactly what i'm suggesting. these bars are extremily close to the navy dockyard and are very familar with our own Navy guys, i mean come on you can't tell me a military guy is not easy to pick out of a crowd. and when your familar with thier patterns it's all that more easily done. It's funny that passers by chose in seconds which side they were on, how many of those that were walking by or as the article suggests driving by actually jumped out and gave assistance to those military personal...in fact the article suggests none, that those Navy guys quickly were out numbered and quickly overpowered... This is a problem with most military bases not just Halifax...it is stressed that military guys travel downtown in groups while attending drinking establishments...it's not because we need to fend off all the hugs and kisses...although some women do like a man in uniform.... I guess we will have to wait to hear from the defendants on thier motives, and perhaps i did jump the gun on the military option...but i doubt it....this is not the first time this has happened and will diffently not be the last..And it still does not excuse the act being cowardly

Black dog: Your piont is taken, i'm sure any little girl from numerous other nations could have ripped my heart out and had as much impact as this one had. But one can not always remain neutral as one would like...And your right but our current military and Canadian policitcal will limits us as a nation to what we respond to...And 9/11 pushed us to respond to Afgan, and we are here now, so why not stay and finish the job or stay until we know without a doubt that the mission can not be completed. So we are not second guessing down the road if we did the right thing. I don't agree, if we are to use our world postion to punish those for crimes again'st our nation, we should also use that responsiablity to atleast try and fix the problem...I mean we were all willing to jump on the band wagon and destroy the government that help al Quida thrive...why not use that same power to atleast try and ensure it does not happen again..no since throwing out the whole basket of fruit because of a few rotten pieces.. Yes but todays warfare is growing, generals are now seeing that to have peace, as we know it, one has to spend more on humanitarian projects than the actual warfare portion...Not to bring Iraq into this, but had they spent as much time and money on rebuilding Iraq as they did destroying it I'm convinced they would not be such as mess as there is today. And we as a nation have to see that as well that these missions are multi bil dollar investments, and should not be taken lightly, but the price tag should not deter us from our responsiablities as one of the leading nations in the west. Life itself is not a safe bet, nothing is garenteed,we as a nation have liked the long shots... people still buy lotto tickets, hoping to strike it rich. We accomplish nothing in the world by watching it go by, atleast here and now we are doing something we've all talked about, projecting Canadian values and morals ...doing something good atleast i hope it will turn out that way...but if not atleast we as a nation can say we tried...As for the ingredients i see them every day, i see the kids running screaming thier heads off waving as we drive by...i see them as the ingredients to a lasting peace...i see them as Afgans future... It's a very good question, Most of those afganis i've spoken to just want peace, to be able to raise there kids free from war, to feed and provide for them.... any father would tell you that....would they settle for the same taliban rule if it meant peace...for most i would say unlikely at this time but unless NATO makes some real progress within a few years i would say yes, they they would... I agree, and polls confirm this. The avg Canadian is quite happy with donating a few dollars to feed the worlds children and calling it a day. that does not make it right just shows us that perhaps we don't always live up to our morals and values we proclaim we have... Forgive me if i screw up this quote but someone said men and nations are not only judged by words but by thier deeds and actions...I'm still trying to figure the true meaning out myself but i'll try here... I not a overly religious man, all though i have found myself making a few promises to god over here latetly...but i do believe we all are judged in some way be it by our peers, friends, family, our nation whom ever, which is important to me and my believes and i think my experiance over here has made me a better person, made me see things in a different light, nothing that gives me any zen powers or greater insight to the worlds problems but just seeing them in a different light...In afgan see hope, i see good people who want what we all want peace...and to achieve that they have asked for our help...unfortunatly the badmen don't want to give them that , they don't want to release control. Is there another way to achieve peace without first driving out those that want to control...

Thank you, and i will share this with as many of my comrads as i can. But i ask of you to say a pray for those who are no longer with us on NOV 11. As this will be the day that we will need your help the most..

Black Dog: Black dog, The man of action, gentleman of leisure..i've been wondering when you were going to wiegh in on this topic. And i'm glad you did. For me it was a 11 year old girl, whom had both hands cut off by the taliban for the crime of going to school, that and hundrds of conversations with afganis. To be truthful never gave them a second thought, in fact had to go to the world map to even find out where Afgan was.. But that raises this question, once we destroyed the Al Quada and Taliban government were we just to leave or did we have the responsiablity to rebuild not only the government but infra structure that has been destroyed or was non existant. Yes, Afgan has a long history we all know that, But then again by the same logic do we use history to judge nations, Do we lock down France, Britain, Spain because of thier historical conquests...do we pour in more troops into Germany because of thier historical past...History is a good gage, but not the end all, there is nothing in history that says Afgan will never be a nation able to stand on it's own...unless you know something i don't. Afgan does not need to become a democracy as we know it, for this mission to be declared sucessful, what it needs to become is a government that can govern it's own people be it by a combination of religous/ elected government officals or other forms of government. Life for many Afganis has already changed for the better, and has changed dramically for the good. And we are just starting the rebuilding process... How could a people able to to run thier own country not be better for us...I know your not advocating leaving them in the dark ages for our bennifit. 9/11 is the main reason for the Afgan mission, but then again thru other discussions we've had i do believe that Canada could take a more active role in alot of areas in the world. And yes, Afgan is one of those areas..But Canadians barely have the stomach for this mission, they lack the patients to get the job done correctly, they lack the will to use force...But then again i see the world thru differnet lenses from a military view.

When i first read this article, i thought it was Halifax just being a tough town, but the more I thought about it , it was'nt about being tough, it was about a bunch of cowards being Anti-American, so much so ,that this person was willing to take a young mans life over the issue of him being American, nothing more .......I mean you don't pack a knife unless you expect to use it, be it to defend yourself or purposely stab someone with it.... But it is also about being Anti-military, those that jumped in after the stabbing did not know these sailors were american...they did know however they were military... the short haircuts gave that away... Halifax has always touted itself as being a military city....atleast a naval city...so much for that myth... More like a city of cowards, who like nothing more than swelling beers and a good scrap...I hope that the Navy handles this in naval tradition and gives you what you wanted, a good scrap...because sometimes cowards just need to be spanked... I honestly hope that Cory Wright you get what is coming to you, may your cell mates name be bubba a huge man with a daily craving for cowards. In fact you should get your own blog and give us daily updates on your progress...I'm sure we could all use a good laugh... My Webpage

My 2 cents worth have been told and retold here dozens of times by myself and other soldiers that have walked the same ground as i have. But i think needs to be retold some more. There has been talk about supporting the mission and supporting the troops, that they are two separate issues. in this case they are not, i'll explain, this mission is 100 % supported by the troops, It's not vietnam...soldiers are not crying about coming home they are not divided on any of the issues that drive this War...We are in fact united and stand firmily behind our nations decission to send us here... Something that seems to get lost in the message or some Canadians just fail to hear so i'll say it again" We fully support this mission and firmily stand behind the decission to send us here" the mission is a Canadian one that stands behind everyone of our values and morals. It is an honourable one, worth the price we are paying to assist the AFGAN government. Some will say it is our jobs to support the mission, it is our duty to show our support, to those i say you do not know soldiers very well, we are a very vocal lot, a couple of beers will prove that, soldiers will speak thier minds when asked, regardless of whom is doing the asking...Our loyality is to the Canadian people not to the present government...and today like yesterday we support this mission...And when the time comes we will say when we don't... There are some who will chant "bring the troops home" to them i ask WHY ? most will answer it's an american war, or we are creating more terrorists, or it has nothing to do with Canada let them solve there own problems...the list go's on and on, there seems to be an excuse for everytime of day... Canadians have forgotten that 9/11 took over 30 Canadian lives that day, a small number of those killed that day, but when you line up 30 bodies it will quickly put in perspective that terrorist act should have a bearing on how our nation reacts to such a crime. It also brings this question up, "what missions do Canadians support" or "What is a Canadian misson" it is my personal opinon that Canadians don't know what mission they support, or what mission is a Canadian mission... they quickly forget that it is thier military that they send on these fairy tales missions, Men and Women trained in the art of combat, not in the art of handing out candies or teddy bears but the art of taking lives of bad men and women of other nations.... Men and Women defaulted into the job because thier is nobody else in the government that wants it... The soldiers side of the story, this is my 2 and tour in Afgan, i volunteered for both, why because despite what you read in the papers we are making a difference, things are changing for the better, we are making lives of Afganis better everyday we are here...it is a slow process but it is progress, I also seen the same progress in bosina as i was on the first Roto with the UN, and 2 with Nato, so i do know alittle of what i'm talking about. My first Roto in bosina , i showered with my flak jacket and my rifle hung on the soap rack inside the shower stall ... my last tour in Bosina i had the opurtunity to have a beer downtown in a local restaruant with no flak jacket, no rifle and we took a rental car...the only difference was 10 years of time...and many hours of hard labour done by troops of dozens of nations... So what does that prove, it proves it is possiable over time to achieve peace when enough force is applied, it also gives acredation to those that have been saying peace takes time. So is it in Canada's national interest to be in Afgan, you tell me why it is not in our national interest to be here. keeping in mind they've brought this war to us, not the other way around, and our Nation finally stood up and said enough is enough, you've crossed the line and have taken the lives of the last innocent Canadian citizen.. Why should we do it. Because it is in our values and morals to help those in need, as we have done in most of our conflicts, in fact history will show us very little of our military history involves Canada defending our shores, from direct military action. But that does not take away from any of our accomplishments or deeds does it ? In todays world sometimes we all need to stand up for what we believe in and sometimes those believes need to be backed up thru action.

gerryhatrick: Let me just say that politicians are heavily swayed by public opinion, so it does have everything to do with hearst and minds of the Canadian public. The media is a major problem in the total confusion of Canada's public, we as Canadians put to much faith in what is printed or reported today. And they have lead the public down the wrong path...Operation mudusa for example had ZERO reporters covering the event, nobody from the media was on the same ground as we where, seeing everything as we did...they took there reports from nightly news briefs given by DND...and even then could not get it right...every news media source was given the same report, and the next morning you'd be hard pressed to find 2 stories the same, in fact what ever story sold more papers the rest would reprint thier verision to match...Thats not news... So when Canadians say yes i'm educated about the Afgan situation, i read all the different news sources i'm well informed..thats a crock of shit...they know nothing...of what goes on here... How can you explain the massive difference in opinion on the mission between the Military and the Canadians back home? Why are Canadians so eager to believe the media, and why are they so eager to dismiss what thier own soldiers have to say. We don't sell papers, we get no royalities for promoting anything, all we get is the small bonuses our gov't gives us...(Just a minute on bonuses)and i'm not sure whom reported that bonus we recieved are around 95,000 cdn dollars In your dreams an avg soldier will be lucky to see a 1/3 of that...and thats after his tax break... We have nothing to gain by telling you the lies... Our current gov't has already decided we are here until 2009..and nobody is going to change that, not you, not the peaceniks, not the military...nobody it is already set in stone...and here is the tricky part are you listening If there has been no changes to the mission, the situation WTF do we need to discuss? And when the situation or mission does change i'd say yes lets get them all in there fill the room up with everyone of those vote grabing dickheads, and lock them in there until they can all decide on the next step... But until then they see above mention to dickheads they will try to artifically create the change needed for them to get back to the tables.... the Canadian public has changed thier mind on a whim , you did say you were following the topic right, Again we are not talking about our current gov't in power because they are holding the course regardless if it's popular or not, but because it is the right thing to do...., and yes the other parties have changed thier minds and it was done on a whim, And when asked why ? they have made all kinds of lies and decieved the Canadian public whom has proven many times in the past that they are gulable, have extremily short memories.... Again that is not what i said or meant, if the mission changed and we could not meet our commitments then yes i would say regardless of military deaths it was time to pull out...But todate that has not happened, nothing has changed here. and if your going to pull us out because "your" tired of hearing about Afgan, or it's an american mission, or for votes ...then you should be prepared to look them in the eyes and tell them why...and you should be prepared to do the next mission by yourself... Not if your going to end all "OUR" hard work and sacrafice over something stupid, as the excuses being used today...not only would it not be good enough but it would mean me and many others turning in our uniforms and perhaps letting them take up the struggle. No, i don't prop it up with just dead soldiers, but all of our soldiers efforts todate, that have made a huge difference in Afgans lives...but then again you already know that..the media tells you so. you have brushed aside every story told by a soldier, every story told by military commanders first hand. and you and many others have brushed it all aside"WTF" there just grunts, with guns....because if you did not brush them aside and take thier opinions seriously then we would not be having this discussion as you would support the mission and every thing about it as much as we do......and we would be talking about the next aid pkg we could send them...not how much air time can the NDP get out of this issue... As for your last piece of advice I live with the dead and living every day and every night, I live with the fact that these soldiers have given thier lives freely for this mission, and the people of Afgan. I also live with the fact that there are groups in Canada that do not honour them, that want to throw away thier sacrafices and give up on the afgan people for no other reason that they are afraid we are creating for terrorists, or the mission is american, or the believe the mission is hopless, but want to commit us to another one of thier liking...Canada has a mission, and it's in Afgan, get on board or get off the bus... then why would you be constantly bringing up the "you can support the troops but not the mission"... If it's not the mission that is wrong then what is it you don't like about it......Do you support the mission? then i will ask you again what about this mission has changed to warrent our quiting or withdrawing... My piont exactly, if nothing has changed about the mission, then why the sudden swicth in tactics, why has the liberals gone from a total support of the mission to it is now the wrong mission for Canada...did they make a mistake in sending us over, and this is thier way of saying we f*cked up, or is it all just a ploy to capture badly needed votes... Another piont i'm trying to make, you don't have an opinion...you push liberal policies...even they don't know what they are or where they stand....first you push the statement "you can support the troops but not the mission" (liberal and NDP policy) then you state You did not say there was anything wrong with the mission, and leave it up to the reader to decide on what your postion is....then get all pissed off when they attack you about it... SO for the record where do you stand in regards to the mission ? again'st it or for it ? and if you are just making a statement to start debate perhaps you should clarify that in your opening remarks....You used to be a leveled headed debater but that has changed in the last couple of months... Again you've brushed everything any soldier has quoted aside...The mission has not changed to any degree that would require us to debate it all over again, lossing more valuable time and effort that could be spent on actually solving this problem... And in this case Mission does equal soldiers as they have made it "thier" mission...when the soldiers do no longer believe any more then you can say the mission support and soldier support are not the same...And it does play a role in decission factor when politics are involved...

gerryhatrick : I agree with you, so show me what has changed to warrent the change of hearts and minds in Canada. That is not what i'm saying, in fact re read my posts again...I'm saying that the Canadian people have already made a decission on this matter, they were warned of it's consquences, including it's price. Now that our Military has invested a huge investment in lives and wounded, Canada can not simply change it's mind on a whim. Those that have changed thier mind owe it to them (the military) a better explaination, than those we are getting now...After all it is them that is paying for this with thier lifes and blood.. But you have simply brushed all that aside, along with their opinons, and feed back. Well if nothing has changed our mission is the same, the enemy the same, our objectives the same today as they were on day one, what has changed. What makes the mission wrong today? And if nothing has changed which it has'nt then one can only assume that the wrong decission was taken on day one...feel free to correct me here, by providing examples on how the mission has changed, and why it is wrong today...And to save face they want us back home... But thats not what 42 of our brave soldiers have paid the ulitimate price for...and over 234 wounded, we believe this mission is worth our sacrafice, in fact many of us will volunteer to come back...as many times as the mission calls for....because we have faith in us, in our training, and the Afgan people and most of the Canadian people. So when you say you support the mission you do support the soldier, because the soldier is the mission. because we believe in and support this mission with our lifes. No, you want leadership that agrees with your opinion, not doing the right thing because right now our leadership is saying that they support the mission, that they believe it still is a honorable cause. Our current leadership is doing the right thing, and there not worried about making the little army guys cry...The only ones that seem to be doing all the crying are the NDP, and Liberals, and lets not forget the Bloc as well...and only because it will bring in votes, not because it is the wrong mission, but rather it is deemed an american mission, and being unamerican is fashionable and gets votes.

jdobbin: Not everyone can serve on the front lines, keep in mind for every soldier on the front you require atleast 10 support trades to keep them, supplied, payed, fed, vehs maintained etc...And everyones efforts are required. And i agree with you partially, the situation in Canada does nothing for there cause, and when those governments look at the whole problem they don't see a nation such as Canada in the lead, all they see is nations that are undecided at best, and that plays a role in thier decission process. I'd like to blame just the government but i think the media plays a part in that as well. Not entirely true, heres why. DND has what are called Purple trades, mostly support trades such as Supply, Truckers, Pay clerks, cooks etc etc they do not belong to any one element Army, Navy, or Airforce. they are posted where they are needed. a member can spend time in all three elements thru out thier carears. All that is required is eviromental training, a short course that teaches a person to be in the army or navy...i don't think the airforce has one..."hard to train someone how to live in a hotel"...anyways it is these purple trades that are targeted...and most have already served in two or more elemnets anyway...it must be noted we are not total idiots each soldier coming over here recieves extensive 6 month training and work-ups and if they are deemed to be a danger to themselfs or others they are "not" sent period....no if's no buts they do not get on the plane....i mean give the army some credit, they are not going to ship a sailor off to an army operation without any training. I hope that explains it alittle better.

gerryhatrick: I'd like to know what message it is that you think your sending the troops,by saying we support the troops but not the mission ? I'd like to know how Canadians, can explain to Canadian soldiers who have returned or serving in Afgan, that we like you guys but your mission... we fucked up ,wrong one sorry about that....we don't support it any more. When it is "we" the Soldiers who have been saying it almost every interview that we agree and whole heartily support this mission, we think it is an honourable one and worth "our" sacrafice. So while Canadians are dancing around the issue be it for polictics or selling papers, or just plain not knowing all the facts, we Canadian soldiers are spilling our blood sweat and tears....Why? Because we answered your call, because we as a nation had decided that AFGAN was a mission for Canada, because we could help, because that is what Canada has always done, Helped those in need. So let me tell you how this Canadian soldier feels about those that do not support "OUR" mission. Betrayed, comes to mind, stabbed in the back, and why is that, you say in shock. Nothing has changed since we came over here in day one, when more than a majority of Canadians readily agreed to send us over here...Nothing... After the military told the government and the people it was not a good idea, that we would have major problems ...nobody even flinched, "send them was the cry across the land" ...And off we went..because that is what we do, we serve...and we did so proudly, as we had the backing of our nation, how could we not accomplish the mission... Fast forward the mission to today, DND has let the people of Canada down, we have not produced results in world record time, even after history and the military told them it is going to take time...guess you have to spell that out because no reads history books, or even gives our military history a second look... And now the Canadian people are looking at "our" sacrafice in horror and saying the price is to high..We change our mind we don't like this mission...To them i say "to fucking Bad", It's to late to be changing your minds...Suck it up like we've been told so many times. Sound harsh, perhaps, but when you tried to stuff the guts back into a 19 year old kid, who even after his painful experiances still wants to come back and serve because he believes that this mission is worth his life, his suffering, everything he has to offer. But maybe only soldiers see that. So to those that did not support the mission from the start "that is your opinion and your entitled to it, to those that have since changed thier minds, i say to bad, the only ones that deserve the right to change thier minds are those families that have suffer losses, or have had to watch thier loves recup in hospitals spread out across the country. Your decissions have consquences and we are paying for them, atleast give us the respect and listen to us. You asked us to serve and sacrafice, and we did, atleast have the balls to keep the faith and fully support us as you did when we left, mission and all..

jdobbin: The math is actually very simple, keep in mind that 2 Brigades have already been rotated thru already. and we only have one Brigade left. I just want to stress that Canada is not here in the south alone, our Camp is made up of many different nations. each doing it's own specialized job all working towards the same goal. Anyone in the south is in a combat zone, and everyone is facing the same dangers. As for rules of engagements, if you are in the south they are going to be the same ones we work off of. everyone is on the same page, nobody, or any country in the south is confined to barracks. and if thier jobs take them off the camp then thats what they'll do. Yes senior military advisors did tell them we where not ready for another major mission, but thats what makes our country what it is, the military does not decide what mission we go on or what we do it's our elected house of parliment..And they are going to get thier monies and votes worth regardless. I've been doing this for just over 20 years now, and have yet seen a government that actually is good for the military, the closest one yet has been this one..But every Canadian knows the shape of it's military, it's not a secret. But there is no major lobby or election platform to change that, because all Canadians are good with that, yes we all say our military should be better equiped, better manned etc etc..but that is all most of us do...So we all share the blame in our current military situation. The military has always been there, and has always done what you have asked of it, and has always been quick to shout "to borrow a Navy term" AYE Ready AYE. you have told us we will be here until 2009 or beyond and thats where we will be serving our nation. Why would they, Canada is not committed, yes we have troops on the ground but we as a nation can not say for sure if we want to be there, that we support the mission...And if we can not make up our own minds then we as a nation have no rights in pionting our fingers at them...There is alot more that this nation could be doing in Afgan if the majority of government and the nation supported the mission. and until that happens we are just tredding water.