Army Guy

Andrew: Man, your polictical colors are showing ....This is what it boils down to, we are not peacekeeping, so this mission must be bad, this is what Canada is known for peacekeeping, and it will hurt Canada's reputation in the future that we are involved in combat. did i get it right ? News flash Andrew, Canada as a nation has put more effort and resources into it's Combat missions and efforts than it has ever put into it's peacekeeping efforts. Our reputation was built on the battlefield, not peacekeeping. Before a nation can peacekeep, other nations must bring those in dispute to the table of discussion, that is done thru the threat of use of arms, or on the battle field. As for purchasing offensive wpns, stop it your killing me here, what do you consider offensive wpns ? and which wpns are you talking about. Besides disaster relief that is all they do, Stop, and think about this just for a minute please, before you embrass yourself. As a Canadian citizen you can only think of 2 things that your military provides you around the clock 24 hours a day. Are you serious ? young teenagers is not the only target for these ads, , but before you sell this group out, read some of our history and you'll find that these people are the main demographic that have built this nation to what it is today.

AndrewL: At the beginning of your post you admit that there is no attempt to sugar coat the depiction of military life. and for 45 seconds they have shown the reality of war, insurgent warfare, combat rescue , and search and rescue and Humanitarian relief. you just have to look for it...Alot of ground to cover in 45 seconds. As for showing the reality of WAR, one must see it first hand, to take it in with all your senses sights ,sounds, smells, touch something you can't do in 45 seconds, something you can't do on TV period regardless of how much time you have. But as for showing military life it's a great start, it's a hard, dirty, thankless job, one that takes a certain person with certain qualities that is whom the ads are targetting. One thing everyone has to remember we have a volunteer army and no one is forced on any mission, and quiting is always an opition.

Nor did i say you did, My piont was it did not misrepresent anything it did not sugar coat it, it presented it as dirty,flat, and greasy, the way it should, keep in mind it is looking for indiv's that are up to the challange, not those looking for glory or the beaches, but those that don't mind hard dirty, greasy work. What part of the ad did you find misrepresented.

Well said Figleaf...

I think the ads clearly depict what life is all about in the CF, it clearly shows the many different aspects of military life from SAR, to humanitarian assistance, to combat. It does not glorify anything but gives potential recruits a no non-sense look at what to expect. It does'nt get any flatter, or greasier than that, no where did they promise a vaction spot on some beach gocking at all the babes, instead they promised you a hard life, doing one of the worlds most dangrous jobs, serving our great nation in it's armed forces. And if you did'nt see that watch it again.

You have a source for that gem, Although it is true that we do have a high number of general officers we are far for the highest, check italy's for one.

Regardless of which party does it, it's going to make for a photo op. Canadians will have to keep in mind the real reason it's for. I've read in the letters to the editor perhaps the best solution todate. Issue the first medal to the people of Canada, past and present and let it hang in our nations war museum for all to see. Although this issue is not about money but rather honour. Our government is making progress in regards to putting more money into our wounded soldiers programs, which includes treating families as well. There is not that many soldiers today that depend on food banks as there was say 5 years ago, not many soldiers actually complain about wages we earn, most will say we are well paid when compared to other western armies. we may not have the same amount of benifits we had 5 years ago, but we are well paid.

Thanks max,

I think we are missing the true meaning of the unknown soldier, The tomb of the unknown soldier represents all those Canadians, men and women who have died with no known grave in all of Canada's wars. It represents a place for our nation to mourn those who have have no known grave site, no marker for family to pay respects to, to place flowers on, to talk to... And to honour them we built the tomb of our own on our own soil. Yes it represents alot of common soldiers, it does not represent "all" that have died, just those that have died, and paid the ultimate price and remain nameless, faceless, and graveless. As a soldier, i can not fathom what it was like in WWI, yes i've read dozens of books seen hundreds of photos, and have been recently in combat, and still i can not equate my experiances and knowledge to what it was like at vimy ridge or normandy beach, and to put it bluntly everyone of them must of had huge balls of brass to scramble out of a trench only to face withering machine gun, arty, and rifle fire. to run serveral hundred meters thru mud and shell holes to the enemies trench line to engage them in close quater combat. All this in conditions none of us could imigine, to me they are all hero's ,one and all. Perhasp the tomb of the unknown soldier is the wrong place or memorial to place or give such a medal as our version of the victory cross to, we do have memorials to honour each conflict, and to those that have died in those conflicts, but we do not have a place or memorial that honours or represents "ALL the Canadian soldiers" thier sprite, thier sacrafice. But most Canadians have equated the tomb of the unknown soldier, to represent all those that have died in all our conflicts , it is a place where our nation gathers to honour them in Nov, to keep our promise that we will never forget, so why not honour them "all" with our nations highest reward, after all the tomb is becoming a symbol that represents not one man but "all the men,and women that have answers our nations call to duty and have parished in that act. There is lots of talk here and in the media that this medal is for one extreme act of bravery, that one act that has been observed and recorded by someone else, who thought it was above and beyond, a common soldiers duties. and by giving this to a common soldier would cheapen it some how, as if it was not earned. And yet the history channel has interviewed many soldiers who have been honoured with medals of bravery, and they will all say "they don't consider themselfs as elite" or special, they did what needed to be done, that being said everyday soldiers accomplish acts of bravery, that go unnoticed or unrewarded let this presentation be for them, for all those acts , for all those soldiers. I don't think any of those that have been presented the VC or future canidates of our new medal would mind or care that they share there status with the Unknown soldier. My prospective on medals, they are made of ribbon and metal, presented on behalf of our nation to say thanks for services rendered, the serve only to show others of your services rendered or accomplishments And i would gladly trade all of them if it meant i could bring back one of my comrads back from the dead. I think the Governor generals eulogy speaks towards my piont. My Webpage

swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen. PROPOSED OATH OF CITIZENSHIP From this day forward, I pledge my loyalty and allegiance to Canada and Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada. I promise to respect our country's rights and freedoms, to defend our democratic values, to faithfully observe our laws and fulfil my duties and obligations as a Canadian citizen. I don't think we have to define all canadian values , just our democratic values, which are ? anyone care to take a swing. before you start cutting wood for those barricades and painting signs....Oaths have been part of our culture dating back to the late 1700's, and still are required by law if you want to serve our country from MP's, sentors, governor general, to be a member of our military, or RCMP, i'm sure there is alot more out there, heck maybe i'm wrong but is there not an oath for the beavers, cubs, scouts etc..there nothing new ...

dogonaporch: No, they were not ducks, and thier deaths are regrettable, But your story does not tell of all the details such as was the taliban fighting from the same house, or compound etc etc but you are making a big leap suggesting other wise, as you fill in the blanks, like some hot rod pilot failed to hit the right target, or just for shits and giggles decided to blow something up. Your also at the same time excusing the talibans actions and blaming NATO. It's funny how someone can find fault with only one side, NATO soldiers are not perfect, in fact they are human and make mistakes just like you do.combine that with combat and murphys law and huge mistakes happen. they are investagated and if the pilots screwed up they will pay thru our justice system. A suicide bomber knows his target, he walks among them, he looks them in the eyes before he press the button, he knows exactly who he is going to kill. he kills because he is making a statement, thats it... And if all they did was attack military targets then there would be no problem, because we are prepared for that, but he attacks women and children and other inocent people that makes him a coward...

It's not just a case of soldiers nerves on edge, every precaution that can be taken is taken or already in place. it's hard to explain but a soldiers nerves are only part of the problem. For instance on all Canadian convoys the last veh in the convoy has a 5 ft by 5 ft sign, it's day glow red, with large white letters, both in pushtin, and english, easily readable from 100 meters. It's a warning to all to remain 100 meters from convoy, failure to so will be met with deadily force...thats the first warning, Second last veh drives in the center of the road way to prevent anyone from passing, effectivily blocking the road from the rear...warning number two, next get to close, there is the rear gunner, or air sentry who is clearly visable, he thru hand signals is warning the drivers to stay back warning number three... Next is a warning shot, the report from a machine gun is clearly audible even thru a cranked up version of jimmy hendrixs purple haze warning number four.... after all these warnings the air sentry will try and put a small burst into the rad, however Afgan road network is not like anything in North america, and this feat is extremily hard to do, as a small pot hole can mean the difference between hitting the rad or hitting the driver. That all being said our ROE's (rules of engagements does state that deadly force can be used... When one of our vehs breaks down the road is blocked, No traffic in or out, a security cordone is put out to keep all foot and veh traffic away from the convoy, again the same warnings above are given... That being said these warning proceedures have not changed in over 6 years, and are standard across Nato, if you drive in Afgan you'd have to be familar with them... And still unexplainably the some Afgans still fail to heed all the warnings, and come charging up towards the convoy, just as a sucuide bomber would. It all comes down to if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it's a good chance it's a duck...top all this off with a soldiers will to live,and protect his comrads at all cost. your looking at a reciept for diaster.

Madmax: There are plenty of NON lethal wpns out there, but they are expensive, and in this envirment not practical or dangerous to the user....NoN lethal force is for situations that are controled to a certain piont, ie riots, that are only throwing rocks or bricks etc...and you want to subdue a certain indiv ie ring leader, etc etc...They are not always 100% effective...something you need when the other guy has a AK or RPG pionting at you. They are dangrous to the user because in the heat of the moment when you need lethal force you may grab the wrong wpn...I'm sure that when things become alittle more secure you'll see more non lethal wpns used. I would be extremily surprised if they went to this, for lots of reasons. Not all the afgans on the government side are loyal to the government....and money does alot of talking over here if you know what i mean... To lead or provide security for any convoy you need to know the route, the convoy compostion, ie wpns, manpower, veh type....all this info is closely gaurded for good reason, and released to only those that need to know, and not until the last possiable moment. ( these precautions are taken with Canadian soldiers) Now throw into the mix uncertainity of the loyality of your escort or for that matter giving them advance warning so they could block off routes etc etc ...Not a very good idea...All it would take to throw this country into a severe public and media frenzy is to have 30 or 40 Canadian soldiers killed in one action in one day, if that happened i believe we would be home by the end of that week.

Well, i'm finally back on the ground, here in Canada, And it's fantastic. Still have lots to get used to and to adjust to, little things like running water, taking a shower every day, shouting at cars behind me to stay 100 meters back, waking up and looking for my wpn, little habits that i look forward to getting rid of.. GeorgeHarper: I really don't know why i'm posting a reply to your ill informed posts, i guess i'm doing it to make it clear to the other posters here that your info is false or faulty. Yes, each shooting puts a strain on relations between us and Afgan civilians be it an inocent civilian or a bad guy nobody wants a shoot out on thier streets period. What is false is you making it out like it occurs everyday on every engagement, your words "who are often" is simply not true. And nobody is hit by wayward warning shots, which are aimed shots at either the soft side of the road, or into the air. They are called warning shots for a reason, they are to warn you of what comes next... Yes but what you failed to mention, is that same man had all kinds of eletrical wires coming out of his vest. simlar to what a suicide bomber would have. Which brings me to this piont, have you ever seen what 30 lbs of explosive straped onto a mans chest can do, now add, 10 lbs of 1 inch ballbearings, or nails or small metal plates or anything thier evil little minds can think of, all of these evil things have a range of well over 100 meters. So now put yourself in this soldiers boots, out of the corner of your eye you spot this guy you bring your rifle up and peer through the scope, what you see is a vest with all kinds of wires coming out of it, You now holding up your hands telling him to stop, he advances, you fire a warning shot into the side of the road... your memory flashes back a week when you seen the results of another bomber attempt, and what you see is soldiers laying on the ground screaming, because they have had limbs ripped off, theres blood every where, and in that mix is Afgan civilians women and children all screaming for help....2 seconds later you snap back to reality, your training kicks in you aim center of mass and squezze off 2 rounds, that man drops dead. And in a shorter time it took you to read this para, it's all over. At anytime while you were reading this para did you have time to evalute whether he was mentally stable, why did he not heed the warnings, why did'nt the Afgan civilains stop him, they knew him, they knew what was going to happen...and you have the balls to pin the label of murderer on this soldier, Like i've said before you do not have the experiance nor the knowledge to judge this man for his actions. you where not there, your just some arm chair critic that knows it all, but in reality your just a fool spouting off foolishness because that is all you know..

I agree with spike, to a certain extent, it would take a alot better liberal than they are offering now to change my vote. I also agree with Max, a Canadian military for Canadian issues, although i don't see Afgan as a US adventure, but as a world issue that needs to be dealt with now, before it becomes a major issue in the future..

jdobbin: It's also been said that the liberals would back an extension if there was suffient postive progress... I personally don't think announcing any further commitment at this time will benifit anyone, and could only hurt the CPC in there numbers. I don't see the benifit do you..but saying that i really don't see us leaving in 2009 either...

Catch me: Do you really have to ask that question, i mean think about it for a minute., but let me ask you this why do we have smoke detectors in our home, why do people buy fire extinguishers, is it because our homes are faulty, or are they there to protect us "just in Case" I mean how many fires does the average home have, in some provinces it's law to have this equipment... Canadians are not demanding we purchase the sixth fleet, or expand our military into the millions, but they want that insurance that we as a nation can atleast defend ourselfs both here and abroad, look after ourselfs incase god forbid victory slides out to sea,or another ICE storm. or atleast have some influence on the world stage, like assisting other nations as we have in the past.... So to answer your question, whom ever may want to threaten Canada or her interests. I'm curious how many out there really think that we as a nation don't need a military , and why is that ?

Saturn: Driven by the military, thats False with a capital F, the miltary advised Mr. Chretien not to go...why because of cuts made by the liberals to DND where to the bone. Nice try ...If your going to place blame lets atleast get the facts straight. How we got there is another question. We got there because former Prime Minister Jean Chretien overruled the best professional advice of our military, which strongly advised against intervention in Afghanistan because of the threat and the inability of the military to sustain a long-term commitment without a huge increase of resources -- costs thus far are estimated at $10 billion. So, alas, we are there. But why? Hamilton spector

Saturn: I'd be curious to know how he has over stepped his duties and if by chance he has ,what has he done that requires him to resign... or do we reserve our patients for elected officals only, and they are the only ones above reproach.

catchme: No, what you found are quotes from a man who leads our nations military period. A department within our government charged with defending this country, and her interests within our borders and aboard.... And in carrying out that task the use of force or the threat of force is used, when diplomancy has failed... Liberals are pissed off at the fact that he has publicly pionted out some of thier down falls, and i repeat some of thier down falls, including destroying the so called liberal myth that we are a peace keeping force... Thier pissed off because they have been accused of placing our nations security on the bottom of the pile...Your security, and mine security. they have placed members of our military lives at stake, in doing so, without reducing our commitments... They are pissed because he is pionting a finger and they are at the other end... SO when he explains why we are in Afgan he is translating orders from our government and what our military mission is there. And when he is describing the taliban, the enemy chosen by our government, and those that elected them. he describes them as they are. And how would you describe our nations military, what exactly do you think our main function is...He wants the public to be clear that we are not handing out candy and teddy bears that so many canadians believe in. But we are closing with and destroying the enemy as that is our job...And that means we armed with wpns, rifles, armoured vehs, aircraft , and ships all designed for one purpose to extinguish our enemies lives... Equipment that the liberals have been neglecting to give us. And this is funny that i have to explain this to a liberal, i could see a NDP'er but history has already shown us that liberals have used our military to fight our nations enemies more than any other party in fact twice as much... Or is it that the liberal party has changed now to a more senstive, peace loving party, who would perfer to stick thier heads in the sand and kiss our enemies asses, in hopes they will just leave us alone... DO some research and find out exactly what shape our military is in, compare our numbers with other nations and you'll find we are extremily lacking in defensive means. Your link is not to what you have quoted, it would be nice to see what context the quote was being used. Thats a pretty big accusation, i just curious if there is proof of any of this what action has been taken, and did we know any of this when the liberals sent us over there. of course the fact that he paid our military members a compliment is not the issue ,right...

Catchme: Yes he did pin piont dates, as the below quote states starting from 1991, and yes he did say the worst being in 1994. so actually he has implicated both parties...Taken from the Ottawa citizen. Also if you read the second article it goes to show he has been crictical of the CPC, and he has been vocal about that as well. ottawa citizen Yes the liberals did spend money on the military, and most of the new equipment is in Afgan, only because thats all they purchased for, for example 8 M777 155mm towed guns were purchased 6 in afgan and 2 in canada for training...yes they did buy Naylas patrol vehs all but a few are in afgan except a few in Canada for training purposes...see the trend here, yes they did purchase equipment now being used in canada across the forces, such as new C7A2 wpns, what we call peanut purchases...they were forced to spend money to keep us safe in Afgan, and only to keep the rest of Canadian citizens quite...now what is not mentioned is the equipment that has retired form the forces during there stay. Most of the Leo fleet, M109 fleet, M113 APC fleet, 105mm french Gait towed arty piece,and theres plenty more and thats just the army, theres still a list from the airforce and navy, equipment retired and no new purchases on the horizen. Equipment used and needed to protect Canada. So when you compare all the cash the liberals spent on thier 12 years in office would it add up to the 13 bil that the CPC spent in the first year.. Hey i'll be the first to admit i'm no liberal, as i've seen first hand how the liberal cuts effected the military, and how we were treated, Cretien went years with out purchasing anything, in fact even said on national TV when questioned about it, the military is never happy, give them a dollar and they will ask for another...and yet he did mange to fast track those ever important lear jets the military uses to ferry him around.... but the CDS has slamed both governments perhaps not equally but then again CPC has just started thier rein.

Catchme: I must admit catchme your below post knocked me off my chair, what i really want to know is why the sudden change of heart. I know it was not me, or anything i posted, i'm curious was it a conversation with your A/B friend. My Webpage So i'm guessing the personal attacks on indiv military personal are going to stop ? I want to clarify the above statement, ROE's are orders, and like all orders anyone within the military can question them or ask for clarification if they think or know that they are outside the Canadian civil and military law, or against the genva convention. I also want to make it clear that ROE's are approved by our government, not the military, it is approve at many levels within our government and all are very carefully checked to ensure they comply with Canadian civil and military laws, and the genva convention, and are also compared with other nations serving on the same mission. It is the CDS that issues those ROE's once our government has approved of them, that being said commanding officers in threater can suggest changes to ROE's ...those changes are examined by the CDS who then asks our government to have them changed this starts the whole process over again... SO inregards to having faulty ROE's the blame squarely rests on the governments shoulders. But thier is alot of checks and balances put in place and having questionable ROE's is very very rare. The government has learned the hard way after the somolia affair. Alot of your posts are pionted towards the indiv soldier, I'd like to clarify this para as well. Every soldier is accountable for his or her actions on and off the battle field, they must ensure they're actions are within Canadian civil and military laws,plus the genva convention, plus any rules and regs set out by NATO...Not only when handling Agan civilians but anyone involved on the battle field, including the taliban. I also like to mention, that it is standard practice that when a soldier discharges his wpn it gets reported, exception being on operation as Madusa, obviously not are all reported the same way, for example, Any shooting that is determined to be an aimed shot at any hostile regardless of it resulting in a miss,wounding , or kill is investaged by the MP's which file thier own reports, it is also reported in the patrol report, plus a clear record of all radio transmissions is also kept and filed. exception being again open combat such as op Madusa,etc. warning shots are also recorded and filed in patrol reports , radio transmission logs, etc etc... So basically every time a soldier fires his wpn there is a record, the only time it's investagated is when a soldier takes an aimed shot with the intention of using deadly force... I've filed out dozens of all these reports all have been reviewed by the chain of command, and they are on file for further review. i would be extremily surprise that complete records were not kept or investagated. Whom they are available to i do not know i'm sure one would have to have a reason to know to have access, but the military is not trying to hide anything to my knowledge.

The "decade of darkness" Gen. Hillier spoke about was the 1990s. Starting with the 1991 federal budget, successive Conservative and Liberal governments reduced the funding and strength of the Canadian Forces in what some in the military then called the "death of a thousand cuts." That message is not partisan. The words Liberal or Conservative never crossed Gen. Hillier's lips. I know him well, and he has always been, as generals in a democratic nation must be, scrupulously apolitical. ottawa citizen. Then there is a story with the herald...Explaining that there is some problems with the CPC as well, what i fail to see is how he can be called PRO CPC. Calgary hearld

Poser: I'm not discounting anything just repeating what Amnestity Inter has said...they have no proof that prisoners that Canadians have capture are being abused, or are you painting everyone involved with priosoners be Afganis or US military is involved in abusing prisoners... In which way ? Again all they have said is that those 2 groups have abused prisoners, they do not say any where they have abused prisoners that Canadians have captured ...you have not provided any proof...you've made a big leap by suggesting that everyone involved with those 2 groups are guilty of prisoner abuse...but thats it.. No they are not, but your forgetting these guys have been on the ground for less than a week now...And this happens every tour rotation..And yes canadians should be concerned, but to what piont...canceling the mission packing up and going home , i don't think so...concerned enough to keep an eye on the situation yes i agree... It would be a big mistake to further restrict our soldiers in thier use of ROE, the commander has to find a fine balance and maintain it.

Catchme: I must admit Catchme, your conversation with your Airbourne friend sounds real, and believable, a first in a long time. That does not mean we are going to hold hands or take long strolls down the beach, just that of all the anti military stuff you've posted this post sounds real. What everyone forgets is that all thru training there is a couple of theme's taught humanitary work,and the largest one is combat and survival in a combat zone...training is done over and over until it's instinctive, no thought required, By telling our troops there is going to be cas and some will not being going home it is meant to sober these troops up. In training nobody died from a paper target, In afgan everyone is a possiable target, our enemy does not wear a uniform, hides amoungst the public, and strikes with out regards for anyone...By sobering them up, it as we say "puts thier head in the game"... After most of these speachs the Chain of command also talks about, "remember your training", the importance of team work, etc etc grounding them again, but now they are aware that if the screw up it could mean someones life...That this is the big leagues and people play for keeps.... Yes it makes them more cautious but that is a good thing... Id also like to add thier is no new recruits, but soldiers that have some time under thier belts. And everyone is being evaluated from day one, and as more soldiers become combat vets the evaluation becomes harder and harder...so they are all screened over and over again...but thier is no telling what a person does in combat until they've been there.... It's not until they have been on ground for awhile that they become effective, hence why there is an increase of problems at the beginning and end of each tour. Again you are judging these soldiers, without being there and knowing exactly what happened, why it happened etc etc... and you are as guilty for making knee jerk responses...Nobody is making excuses here all shootings are investagted...and if they are proven to be outside our ROE then they are charged, sent home for trial..Keep in mind the military does not handle Federal offenses, murder is federal... Nobody here is qualified to judge any of these soldiers, including myself on why they made a decission to fire and take someones life, because we will never know all the facts, Our country has given us clear ROE's approved by Canadian law, and they trust thier soldiers to stay within them...if they do not they also make it very clear what actions occur when they don't...We are not American soldiers, although it may seem so as we are caught in the same circumstances, there is no majical light that comes on saying shoot or don't shoot. Just one indiv with a split second to decide kill or be killed...and i hope you never have to make that decission because it does stick with you the rest of your life... Perhaps you should be having this conversation with your AB friend, i'm sure you trust his opinon but would be very surprised it differed from mine.