Army Guy

This is BS, clear debate is what everyone wants but, is to "Canadian" to sit down and discuss the matter seriously....after all is not Canadian to sit and discuss Defence matters, as we are afraid to be labeled as a right wing, or even worse an american...we will however sit and talk for hours on a bil dollar health care system that is in desparate need of fixing....but our defence which lies in critical condition...we'd rather see it die....Nobody is stifling debate except Canadians.... That is because they have grown tired of waiting for our government to bring some aid or relief, that has not come, they have waited for the Canadian people to step up, but they have yet to do that....so while you may see it as dangerous, they saee it as a last ditch effort to save our defence.. I agree with you Canada does not need a huge military, but what it does need is a defence struture that is capable of atleast providing atleast 50% of our defence requirements...not just our military requirements, but RCMP, Coast Guard, CSIS, Communications, National preparness, to name a few....all shelved or given lip service because the Americans foot the bill and we let them....And then we get shoocked when someone rubs that fact in our face....No we are pissed becaused it was our neibours that did the rubbing....will the rubbing do any good no, it is more of a vent than an actual rub....they're tired of footing the bill for the defence of North America, while we rub there noses in how much better we are than them.... Those articles that have been posted here concerning the condition of our forces are just the tip of the ice burg....The media has been publishing them as fast as they come out, we as Canadians can not say we have nor been warned.....

After riding the coat tails for 30 or more years ya i'd be suspicious as well...but if we present them with a well laided out plan, i'd bet they would be more than happy to assist us...it make sense for both countries...after they're goading us to take some sort of action.... Our current plans to build up pose little to no threat to US interests...in fact if anything it creates a stronger secure north....which is good for both countries.... Hence why i don't think we've seen a white paper since, come to think of it i have'nt seen a foreign policy paper put out since then either... I think it would take alittle more than that, but if the US wanted it bad enough they could assert more than just military authority, but econimic as well....but like i said it would take a pretty big need to force the US hand...after all we are thier retarded little brother.... Sorry my bad, i meant we were given a little more than the deadbeats....not that we where a dead beat....but we as nation can give alot more...and stop pionting fingers at who is doing what....instead let the big boys get pissed off and piont fingers.... I agree....the combo of everything would strike a good balance... War sucks, nobody called cyprus and our 25 year stay there either....but we sucked it up....I've seen these guys up close and i'd much rather fight themhere and now than perhaps tommorow in downtown toronto....

Thats not what i was impling, all i said was take over our share of the defence of Canada, nothing about leaving NATO, or NORAD...but rather doing atleast our 50% of the job. That it was a sad statement when we our content, even happy about not even pulling our weight in the defence of our own nation...Currently getting out of any of our defence agreements would not be good for the nation...shit we can't afford to keep our small military afloat now, can you imigine the bill if we decided to take it all on.... No the Americans have been very forward in trying to get us to place more attention on defence, such as the American Ambassador, during the liberal reign, along with countless American generals, politicians, etc etc....i think if they where told we were expanding our military and taking over more of our defence responsbilities they would throw a party.... Yes the PC plan that never even made it off the paper it was written on....kind of like buying a formula one car going to the local corner store...I think thier disappiontment was that we had forgotton about the rest of the defence problem....like an ARMY or the rest of the NAVY, instead we ran right over to the shinney stuff and well it was a dream paper anyway.... then you have not been paying attention... It was a good plan , putting a military presence in the north, but Armed ice breakers....wrong chioce of equipment...the military is not in the ice breaking bussiness thats a coast guard function, one that is really in need of an up grade....no what was need is Ice hardened frigates of corvettes like the danes have....a military ship designed for warefare....big enough to haul up a coy of troops 150 or more and land them and support them for short periods... I'm sure it would concern them, and it would put Canada in a better driving seat, but realistically they would still enjoy massive military advantage over anything we could put up north.... Then lets make up our minds do we have national sovereighty over our north or not because if we do then we should be prepared to claim it or defend it, if we don't then lets deny we have it.... Are we saying we can't do or give any more....or that we are doing as much or a little bit more than the dead beats....keep in mind what is at stake here....If this mission fails and the big boys decide that perhaps NATO has outlived it's usefullness, and perhaps a new coalition needs to be formed....will Canada be included.... No we are one of the larger small fries in Afghan, the US being the largest, with Britain coming in second...keeping in mind that they are also in 2 or more threaters as well....as far as being rotated in and out we've always played a bigger role than we could handle, historically our history is full of it, the Italian campaign, liberation of holland, not to mention the countless examples during WWI, no we've always been in the fight, always punching way ahead of our weight....If our government does decide to pull out in 2011 , our postion will be absorded by the US or British....putting that much more strain on our allies....i think it will be a long time coming before any of the other allies step up.....

Help on the polictical front perhaps, but i don't think we'll see anytime soon Russian or chinese troops in Afghan...The Russian army has still not over Afghan and the Afghans are not ready to see them any time soon either....

I don't think so, i think they would be elated if we just took over our share of defending Canada, which in it self is a sad statement really. we have the resources, we have the ability, yet we just refuse to because of the finicial commitment....For a nation that prides it self on being unamerican, we sure depend on the US for everything, our very existance depends on the US, and how do we reward them for that by shouting to the world just how unamerican we are... Look how we stuggle with other nations over key areas of our north, can we honestly say we would be having these conversations if we could deploy military forces in strength to our north. or if we could even patrol them regularly...How many times has Denmark, landed armed troops on disbuted land, how many times have they planted thier flag on that island....and if we can't get little Denmark to take us seriously can you imigine how Russia and the US must be laughing when we demand that this land is our land... I got this quote from an Army manual i had kicking around. "the largly unremarked practice of founding defence policy on the premise that Canada should have as little defence structure as it can get away with may no longer be acceptable" it was followed up by this tidbit.... These words presage the post Sprt 11 outcry over a possible "canadian conection with the terrorist involved" If Canada was ever perceived either thru action or inaction to present a threat to American saercurity the consquences would be in calculable....there is little irony in the idea that our greatest guarantor od sovereighty might also be considered in some ways it's greatest threat... It's not written to scare up bogey men, but rather make us think that perhaps our free ride is over, and we should be taking defnece alot more seriously.... Perhaps the wrong chioce of words i'm not sure, but lets put this in context, a nation with 36 mil, has a military of only 60,000 people which has a hard time coming up with every 6 mths the 3200 soldiers required to do this mission. And while i'm not cutting up our commitment by any means, there are nations that are shouldering most of the burden, mainly the US, and soon the British. who's numbers are much greater than ours... And while you do have a very valid piont there is many nations that are not pulling thier weight, we should let the big boys piont that out, and continue to do more than our part in this one mission...

Me personally, i think our present defence agreements and treaties are good for Canada at this time and with our current econemy, and current deficit. but they're is a trade off in our current agreements we do not have total national soviegnty. For instance in our NORAD agreement, we pay approx 10 % of the cost to run and maintain air, maritime, space defences...as a result some of our territory comes under US control....in fact the entire NORAD HQ is under US control, as it should as they foot the bill...therefore that HQ's will always act in the US best interest if it came to that... I suggested that If eyeball was to keep his head stuck in the sand, we would need to have more control over our defence and the defence agreements we are involved with.. Actually NATO will decide this, until then we still have an obilgation to keep our commitment...Of course we as a nation can opt out of NATO at any time....I think this war has progress past the piont of defeating the Taliban that has been done, they are no longer a threat to NATO as per say....but they are a threat to Afghan. and since we where involved in a Government removal, NATO has taken responsability of rebuilding the new government...I agree with you it's been a long road....but it's not time to quit just yet.... This mission is very important to NATO and it's future the orginal members have already been talking about whom has really been contributing and who is just riding the coat tails....if it fails there will be lots of questions asked, and perhaps a new allianace formed.... And because Canada has not really taken defence matters to heart, we have fallen well under the 8 ball, and would need to be part of some alliance perhaps costing us more of our national sovereigty. So the outcome of this mission does effect Canada not just on this front but others as well.

I agree that the RCMP have clear direction in which to act, But he did not get his day in court, or his fair trail....and neither did the Mom, who's son is now dead.... If we do not have the facilities to treat these people for life, i mean locked up solid so there is no chance of sitting across from one on a bus.....then they should face the criminal system...if all we are going to do is give them a few meds and let them out , like suggested earlier with the women and the broom stick....it's not thier rights or protection i'm worried about, it's mine, my family, freinds, everyone else that uses public transit, this could have easily happened at 30,000 feet in an airplane....

I call bullshit, provide a link that even suggest that the 2 wars are linked, and identical....or are you pulling this out of that 1/4 inch speaker located in your southern quaters..... No Survivors, shit thats funney, have to remember that next time i'm outside the wire... The treaties we live under do not have caveats that allow Canada to pick and choose what we respond to....Besides those westerners you keep refering to pay most of our defence bills, until we can pay for our own defence we are stuck with those defence treaties and all of our obligations...

No, i'm saying it was a terrorist attack that required a military response....Al quida (the people who planned, carry out the attack), and the Taliban who provided refuge for those attackers.... Shoulda coulda.....Read about our NATO obilgations...The Iraq war and Afghan war are 2 entirily separate issues, not even close to one another....

Well it would be a start, if we as a nation do not want to live up to our obligations of these treaties, to pick and choose which inter national Crises we assist or attend then yes. until then we live up to those treaties or pull out of them and defend our selfs....Something Canadians will not do.... You know as well as i do, that there is no time limit attached to any of our treaty obilgations.

I would hardly call the Afghanistan mission interfering, 9/11 seen the death of over 3000 US civilians, to put that into some perspective pearl harbour seen over 3000 US citizens killed...9/11 required a military response...just as pearl habour did.... And since Canada refuses to pay for all of it's own defence it has entered into a seris of pacts and treaties....Such as NATO, NORAD, etc....signing on to these pacts allows us to live under the protection umbella they afford, with out paying the full cost.....to sum up you get what you pay for, and the act of 9/11 forced us to live up to our treaty obligations, an attack on one member is an attack on all.... So in fact i am doing my duty, upholding our place in the world....you want to stick your head in the sand then start paying in full the bills for defence that would allow you to do so....

They're plenty of soldiers here on this board all capable of independent thought, and very good at critical analysis, if anything a Canadian soldier is very good at speaking his mind and airing out the laundry so to speak. In fact the CDS encourages soldiers to speak to the press and media, as long as they have the knowledge and back ground to do so. It is every soldiers job to question every order he recieves to prove it is valid, and lawful, so i think we can put the mindless robot theory away. Have you questioned, whom have you questioned, or have you contained your remarks to this and other forums....I mean it is your job, and if you have a right to question if i'm doing mine then i should have the right to ask you are you doing yours.....Because from mine end of the stick...your not, you and the other slightly less than 1/2 of the Canadian population are whinning and moaning but really doing nothing.... Your right about the outcome of war, but then again nothing is 100 % guaranteed is it, Diplomatic talks, Economic sanctions, etc etc...in fact there is just as much evidence available to sugest they do not work in all situtions...War should be used as a last resort, when all other methods fail..in most cases....Pearl habour was an act that brought in the US into WWII against Japan, 9/11 was an act that brought to bear NATO military forces against terror.. Then again you could argue the moon is made of cheese, take a look at voter turn out on the first election, and come this years election i think you'll see the same results...Voter turn out was higher than it is here in Canada, not really hard to do, considering the weather plays a big part in our turn out...and yet Afghanis turned out after walking serveral hundered klicks to voting stations, with roving bands of terrorists hunting them down, handing out death for even talking about voting....And while thier democracy may not look like ours or anything in the west....They took these chances with thier lives to vote.....Does that say they don't want it.... Ya watching 4 young Canadians being loaded into a herc does that, makes you weepy....but it does not make peace and democracy rhetoric... You don't get it, this war has always been winable, and the military has been saying for years now that it must be faught and won on 3 fronts, the battlefield....the diplomatic front, and the home front.....The military has not lost a single engagement with the bad guys...it has accomplished all of it's goals it set out....The diplomatic front here in Afgan is doing well, our government at home well not so well.....the home front, barely in the game...and now they want to change the rules and context to cover thier asses, change the defination of success so they do not have to do anything and can piont the finger at someone else...Let me ask you this what is it that you see bringing a victory in Afghan ? and how do we accomplish that ?

Why not Afgan, i mean our history is full of examples of Canadians giving thier lives up freely for countries like Britian, France, the rest of europe, Russia, China, Vietnam, korea, the list goes on and on in fact in may be much easier to name the countries Canada has not split it's blood for....So why not Afghanistan... This week i watched 4 of our young men being loaded onto a herc, to make the long journey back to Canada, i know the pain and tears that will come with that journey, as it starts here on the tarmac........But to these Canadian soldiers who serve here and now this is not a waste of our time, money, and lives....It is our Mission, our duty, our place in the world, as Canadian soldiers to offer a small piece of what we have in Canada, a small piece of what we take for granted every day....a small piece of peace, and hope.... I know for some Canadians it is hard to think that those two words are worth all the effort we are putting in over here....our tax dollars, and for the most part that is the Canadian contribution....But for our Soldiers, wives, friends, families, it is more than that.... it's blood, sweat and tears, and sometimes a life.....and if we are willing to give all that ....why can't the rest of Canada just get on board....

The reason we are in Afganistan has not changed, nor has the victory conditions, atleast not here on the ground. And while alot of politics are played with different subjectys , the reasons remain the same. I just want to piont out that it has been the minority of Canadians that have support our military and mission all along...It has been our soldiers, families, friends that have paid the price, and we have done so with out regrets...with out need to justify..

It would allow our troops serving there now more protection, to secure more of the forward areas with a forward operating bases....it would save Canadian lives...But to answer your question, in the grand scheme of things it would only put a small dent in it....as the US are looking for an addtional 10,000 NATO troops.. True enough, however we knew what we were signing on to when we first agreed to move south, there was no time table, no promises made... Canada contribution is large, but no means massive, a country with over 36 million can only afford to send over 2800 pers and contribute 100 mil a year....don't you think we can do better for a G-8 nation....shit check out what Holland gives.... According to latest available figures from 2005, several G7 European countries, who are key allies in Afghanistan, were contributing well below their equitable burden as donors. The following table compares aid to Afghanistan for a number of G7 donors in terms of their equitable share. Share of Aid to Afghanistan (2005) Donor Burden Share [Country Share of DAC Total GNI (2005)] United States 61.2% 38.1% United Kingdom 10.2% 7.0% Netherlands 3.6% 1.9% Canada 3.8% 3.4% Germany 4.6% 8.6% France 0.9% 6.5% Italy 1.2% 5.4% Japan 3.4% 14.4% Source: DAC Statistics Online (January 2007) PDF Many have said our government has done a crappy job in regards to mission PR... In Afgan anything outside the gate is front lines, but i agree with your statement, however it must be said, Britain and the US are the greatest contributors, and rightly so, however these are the only allies we should be concerned with, for furture defense pacts will probable include them both.... PDF Keep in mind that the US numbers will increase by 35,000...also in the PDF doc, it does not mention the additional 11,000 US pers not involved in NATO mission....so by june of this year thier numbers should be close to over 75,000 troops....plus there is still a need for 10,000 more troops from NATO.

Your right we can't do it by ourselfs, and we are not, US and British combat forces have increase by almost 2 fold, and there is still talk of our pulling out in 2011. Thats exactly what i'm saying, our Allies have stepped up and we are not keeping pace, sure we have increase our numbers with aviation assets, but our Combat troops remain the same... Another battle group, and more aviation assets would be about as far as we could be pushed.... The Afgan people are well aware of the problems and with a major election, i think this will be address, however that all being said corruption is a major part of thier culture...so it won't be stopped completely, but more Aid funds means more will get to the people that really need it... The majority of Canadians still support the war unless you have figures to say differently. However, we were also told we'd be seeing some progress by now. I think Canadians are starting to realize our allies and the Afghan government are part of the problem. Your right recent polls suggest that support for the mission has climbed to 57 % , This however change is just a recently, Support for the mission when i first started this tour was below 40%...That might be acredited with Obamas election as well....and perhaps more funding will be forth coming, but keep in mind we had years where the war was not supported, and in the polictical world that means funding is not coming. GLOBE No, but we are not alone, US, Britain, Germany, France have all increased thier funding and troop levels.... Funding has remained constant or increased very little in the last 4 years, you know as well as i do that it would not be a wise polictical move to drive major increases to Afgan Aid or our Military forces in Afgan when there is not a majority in support... not to mention when the PC are teatering like they are today. My numbers are taken from actual funding available to CDN troops to distribute to local projects, The link i provided above mentions that this is just a recent developement, support has not always been there.... As of 2007, according to the Manley report, Canada had allocated a total of $741 million to Afghanistan, over the fiscal years 2001-02 to 2006-07. CBC It also notes, "Afghanistan...received $100 million last year from CIDA and is to get the same amount for the next four years." CDA So while perhaps Afgan is our largest recieptant of Aid, one has to ask is it in line with our status as a G-8 nation, one also has to ask, is it in line with the contribution our military is making, is it cheaper to give soldiers than money......we all know that this is not strictly military mission, but if we as a nation are going to commit combat troops why not make an equal Aid donation... Well here is the problem i'm not employed by the other allies, or the afgan government, and while that problem is being addressed, this one is not.... Many NATO countries are stepping up to the plate, addtional funding and more troops, and we as a nation are being left behind.... Realism is we can not win this or anything with the continued support of the people for the mission....we need to put more troops in, and increase our aid.....and if we are not going to commit to winning this thing then get us the hell out of here....

You mean france was blocked from sending Battleships during the 7 year war to protect "New France", but France had other priorities at home, and New France was not one of them... . There is a big leap, France and New France may of assisted the Americans in gaining independance, but the majority of that effort came from the americans themselfs. To say that it cost France it's foothold in America is somewhat an exageration. when France was busy with other problems in france itself. Please do, because it sounds like your talking out of that small orface just north of your balls. You gave alot of choices here, traitor, asshole, lifeless loser, dick or American traitor assholes,.... i guess the majority of Canadians would fit in with Queen loving freedom traitors or assholes....by the way which group do you belong to, the french from France, or new France, or is it American. I'm curious what is the defination of an "orginal Canadian", there seems to be a pattern growing here, it seems the French just don't seem to like the English much, but history is full of reasons why that is.....they're lovers not fighters....not that, that is a bad thing but it does have it's down fall when when trying to assert itself with the use of force.... Well, lets see, besides kicking Frances ass for a hobby, we also have come to Frances aid, on many occasions, but i guess that don't really count or you've forgotton those times, Vimy ridge has a a massive moument attesting to what we did,along with many other battles on french soil , funney thing that conscription crises really put Quebec in a bad light....Let's not talk about the second world war...which all those sacrafices were undone by de gualle and his famous Canadian tour.... And while English Canada does have it's draw backs, we do make up the majority,and in a democracy that counts for alot, That being said with out Quebec there would be a void that could not be filled, and it is part of what makes us Canadian.

With out the popular support from all the western countries, from the people themselfs this war will be lost....it is one thing to support the troops pat them on the back, shake they're hands, but if they do not support the war, they it is a lost cause.... Support from the people means funding problems melt away....it means troops are commited to combat, it means stomping the crap out of the taliban.... Your right there is a corruption problem at all levels of thier government, but it is built into thier culture, it does need to be addressed by our government, by the US, and the rest of NATO, but to more funding is needed, to ensure it gets down to where it is needed the people.... Here is where i disagree, Canadians have made this a private war for our soldiers, when this conflict was first announce the Majority of Canadains could not wait for our boots to get on the ground and kick some ass....i say that becasue it was very clear it was a combat mission from the start..... That being said Canadians waved good bye at the airports by the droves, cheering, waving flags the whole nine yards....and within a year the support of the people started waining, to the piont it is now....where support is in a minority.... But put your selfs in our boots for just one day, It was our government and the people of Canada that sent us over here...and now with support dried up, so has the funding.... and what funding we do recieve we the soldiers pay for in blood and lives....So while the majority that do not support the mission have manged to dry up funding, they have down squat to bring our nations soldiers home....yes they will say bring them home....at a bar, or in the mall, but they will not rally in mass to force our government into action.... So mean while we the soldiers have said screw you will make this war "our war"....we won't let the people of afgan down, nor our other brothers in arms whom we fight side by side....Now while that might piss alot of non supporters off, think about this for one minute....we did not declare this to piss you off, we did it because we had no choice, Our nation has agreed to assist Afgan with combat forces, we could do as some nations have and stay inside the wire...but we are Canadian soldiers, and we will not just sit here while there is work to be done... To sum up most Canadian soldiers feel like the rest of Canada has forgotten us, they have stopped aid, and funding, and do nothing to get us returned...So the taliban are not the only ones we fight, it's the support of our own people we struggle with as well. Canadain soldiers are frustrated to no end, that regardless of what we do, or how well we do it, Canadian public fails to get engaged one way or the other in a conflict they once supported. And while i feel your pain about the corruption, and pakistan....we must not forget our soldiers who will continue this fight with you or with out you, until we are ordered to stop... because our mission is still to help the Afgan people which should be priority everything else is a road block or speed bump towards that goal.

30 years of conflict has left the country devasted, not just in the phyiscal sense but destroying the will and dreams of the people. to fully understand it you have to experiance it. Afgan people just need aliitle bit of hope, watching your children starve to death, is a powerful motivator, and alot of afgan men fight for money on both sides of the conflict so they can provide some of the basics...What woul;d you do to provide for your family ? Not true the Afgan army is reaching the 160 k mark, to put that in context Canada is strugling to recruit and train just 5000 in the same time period....and todate we've grown by a whopping 2500 pers....the Afgan have done this under war conditions, they pay thier soldier poor wages, and keep them on the line for years at a time.... Thier is support for western actions, but we are not doing enough, in regards to troop levels, and funding for Aid.... And while the government may not be popular across the entire country it does have support, and with a major election this spring we might see a regime change. As for the trust of the Afgan armies, they have been involved in every combat action we've been in, those little bastards are some of the bravist men i've soldiered with, the run into action with with little to no kit and protection , they purchase alot of thier own ammo, i trust them with my life.... And most of the Afgan people we talk to perfer them over western troops....

Victory in Afgan has serveral definations, which one do you want.... Defeating the Taliban is one victory condition.... Getting the support from the western world is another.... Keeping pakistan out of the conflict is another.... Waste of time, for whom you ? do you spend alot of time and effort on this problem ? I know it's not a waste of our soliders time and effort, why is that ? Afgan has been involved in conflict for over 30 years now, and all the people of Afgan want is peace, to feed thier families, to go about thier daily lives without being threaten or killed....And they are willing to take any peace offering as long as it can be put into place and kept.... As for Sharia law, if that what it takes to bring peace and stability to the land why not?

From what is being said in military circles, the draw down won't be that much, our main focus of mission will change, location wont change still down south....but it won't change much for the soldier outside the wire...

That is not what is said at all, he states a military victory is not achievable at this time. that the war will have to be won by the will of Afgan people. But this is old news, NATO has been saying this for a few years...The Gen is pissed off because his manpower requests have been cut short...And the Rest of NATO is himin, and hawing about sending more troops.... And why would we need more troops if we can not win....perhaps it lies in providing enough security for the Afgan people to get back on thier feet....we need to stay the course...

The way this whole issue has been handled by both sides has been disappionting... this whole issue is about Canadian history Canadians, not English Canadians, not French Canadians, not Quebecors, just Canadians, made up of all of the above....it is part of our history, we can not change it, rewrite it as we see fit, nor should we ignore it because it is polictically correct.... As for those 30 % that don't want nothing to do with Canada, except everything they can rip from our nation, when they separate.... stomp your feet, cry out to the world, threaten violence, and you will get your way...Frankly i'm getting tired of those 30 % of Quebecors dictating to the rest of Canadians which includes the remaining 70 % of Quebec "what we should or should not do as a nation"....It's time we woke up and told those 30% to sit down, we are in charge here, "don't like don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out".

Perhaps your right, but currently our laws actually give our youth a upper hand when it comes down to crime..they recieve little to no sentences, thier slate is wiped clean once they become adults. will all that change if we except the status quo.... But changing our laws, bring about relealistic punishments for youth offenders, a massive education program, in the schools teaching them right from wrong, showing them the consquences, and what it costs in dollars and distress to it's victims....the parents should also be targeted with this education, not only should they be held responsiable for thier childrens actions but they also must take part in thier re education.... I have 2 examples , a 14 year kid stole my niebours brand new jeep, from his garage, which was open and the keys left in the ignition....he went into is home to get some tools, and returned in less than 5 mins, and this kid stole his jeep, and took it for a joy ride, drove it to our local gravel pit and tourched it....His insurance company did not pay it all out for serveral reasons, the veh was left insured, and had the keys in the ignition....so he was left a hefty bill, his insurance also went up considerably.... The Kid was found and charged with theft, and was later released, my niebour is now trying to go thru small claims court to atleast have the uninsured portion payed out by the kids parnets, but it is not looking to good.... since then this kid and 3 others have been charged once again with theft, this time over 6 vehs where found in the pit burnt.... My brother house was broken into, just before X-mas, by 2 youths...they tore the place up pretty good, tore x-mas presents open took the good ones , stole little items like piggy banks, spare change, a laptop, a camera etc etc....the police took one finger print, from a basement window, that had been jimmeyed open....after serveral months of investagation RCMP know who did it, but have no proof....these same kids have bragged about how easy steeling is, and how they keep getting away with it....and yes my brother was lucky to only have a mess to clean up, and a few items stolen....he is a victim of crime...he has since spent more than 4000.00 improving his security, trying to regain his since of security, that was lost when 2 punks broke into his place....one day these kids are going to run into someone that takes security to another level..and end up in a hospital, or worse dead...

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