Army Guy

Thats a little unfair is it not, we are now judged completely on the party we voted for...I personally am not a liberal,n or NDP but i do like some of thier policies....what does that mean, my professional abilites are clouded or i'm just confused polictically.... As for the rife between Mackenize and Dallaire, i chaulk it up to 2 strong alpha males having a personal disagreement....Both where good gen's... Question: With our international capability at stake, are we pulling our weight and will the money change that? Gen Hillier: The money will change that is and give us better tools for the international stage and do what the government said give the world more of Canada and Canadian leadership. You cannot have it on the military side without a footprint in the places where you decide to go. I don't think the credibility is at question. I speak from my past experience of my time in Afghanistan, and the Canadian Forces, men and women, not just the Army on the ground in Afghanistan supporting the mission had credibility. That reflected right back to this country. hillier In this country, we could probably not give enough resources to the men and women to do all the things that we ask them to do. But we can give them too little, and that is what we are now doing. Remember them in your budgets." -- Hillier in his first speech as CDS on Feb. 4, 2005 Hillier? "Those actions, dollar deprived, have now led to some deep wounds in ... the Canadian Forces over this past, what I would call, a decade of darkness." -- Hillier in a Feb. 16, 2007 speech to a defence group, referring to budget cuts made in the 1990s. "I'm not ashamed to say we need money." -- Hillier in an April 12, 2006 speech to a Toronto business audience about the Forces' budgetary needs "In this country, we could probably not give enough resources to the men and women to do all the things that we ask them to do. But we can give them too little, and that is what we are now doing. Remember them in your budgets." -- Hillier in his first speech as CDS on Feb. 4, 2005 As others around the world see it and tell us soldiers frequently, we should have more capacity to help others in all of those things as befits, perhaps, a G-8 nation, a founding member of the UN, a founding member of NATO and a nation that has always been a beacon of light and aid to those around the world who need our help. Hillier If we can not base our military budget on GDP, which is somewhat based on the size of our population , how can we now base what we pay into a shared defence agreement on population levels....the US government pays out more than 3 Bil while Canada pays out just 320 mil.... NORAD provides both countries the same amount of surveillance , regardless if one is a super power or not ...and which soon will encompass a martime surveillance componet as well.

I have a hard time following your thought process here....this is what i have got so far and feel free to correct me.... NATO is bad, and deserves anything that happens to them.....Taliban and the rest of the unholy bunch, are freedom fighters and while they terrorize thier own people it's not as bad as Army guy says it is.... Do your own research on all the different factions over there....google is full of sites....shit go to thier sites, pictures are worth a thousand words...

Lets not forget the VHS tape that was found, it clearly shows him making, at the same house that was involved in the attack....and then later at night with a few of his buddies planting IED's ....now while this was in the American sector, it clearly shows him engaged in terrorist activites.... Lets also remember that the 3 Afghan national soldiers were cut down in the door way, because they where knocking on the door... not kicking it in, or showing any aggresion....So those in the house either had something to hide, or they just did'nt like authority.... What you have to remember is that he belonged to al qaeda a ruthless Terrorist group, he was not a taliban member...Al qaeda did jobs that the Taliban did not want to do....or seen doing.... SO nobody knows except omar himself knows what acts he has done....but membership into this little group does come at a price and you can bet it does not include helping old ladies cross the road or selling cookies.... Mr Omar is being painted like a helpless child....in Afghan he is and was considered a man, an adult ...and was expected to carry out adult taskings....understanding what his comrads where capable of may give you some insight what kind of characters he lived with, whom he was striving to become.... questioning is good... I don't know, the only one that knows that is Omar....American, and Russian munitions are common over there.... I'm hoping he gets a fair trail here in Canada, that he is held accountable for his actions....just like any other under age minor who has commited a serious offence....what i hope does not happen , is he is just set free, as his brothers where....to live off our tax dollars...

Perhaps we should leave out the personal attacks...

Do you honestly think that young mr Khadr is the only Canadian that has or is fighting in Afghanistan.....And if he had died of his wounds we would not have even known about him....no he will not be the last Canadian citizen captured fighting for the bad guys....so yes he needs to face justice and serve his time for his crimes and an example be made.... I want to remind you that NATO takes the planting of IED's and mines very seriously for a good reason.....those caught are normally engaged with deadly force in the act....i also want to remind you that most of our young soldiers that come home in coffins are victims of IED's and mines.... What message will be as a nation be sending to the others if he is released and paid off like his brothers....what message will that send to our troops....

Would you believe we only pay just above 11 % of that bill for NORAD, does not sound like we are pulling our wieght here at all.

Built before 1972, You'll need to talk to the airforce on that, we fly the F-18A model they build a E and F model now....we where forced to upgrade because we where not inter operable with the US , could not carry the same ordance, could not communicate, could not do alot of things...and this will be a problem once again when the US airforce begins mass producing the F-35's... it is time for a replacement, 2017 was picked because that is when we will have the cash for the purchase.... but we have 80 F-18, and what about the other aircraft that require refueling....then there is things like routine maintance, which can take weeks to perform, other missions or taskings that may come up, thats alot of what if's the p-8 just made it's first sucessfull refueling last month....do we want to buy todays tech in 11 years time.... no we are always looking, things don't start to get done until our government first says it has the money... those first guns we purchased went to Afghan, since then we have retired the M-109's and the new 105mm gaits, leaving a huge capability gap....for some what 5 years or so...do you think 6 guns was enough....do your think 37 more are enough....i mean they are replacing what so 60 pieces or more.... When you compare it to the total bill that needs to be spent , not to increase our capibilites but to maintain them...then i disagree we are not spending enough....Soldiers are greatful for every piece of equipment we get....It takes a special kind of person to become a soldier in our military, and for the most part we are all very passionate about what we do, and how we do it....we just want the equipment to better serve our nation....that being said i doubt things would change for us and our will to serve if you'd given us a shovel and a pocket knife....

Have you talked to them, most that i've talked to just want peace, and to be able to feed thier families, a couple of thousand hard core Talibs want to be able to force thier will and thier form of religion on the masses....is that right...And yes some western Values and traditions go again'st thier religion buit so far they are working on that.... Colateral damage works both ways, every time bomber kills in a crowded market, every time a girl gets acid thrown in her face, every time they kill someone to terrorize a town or village....and while NATO mistakes make front page news ....we seem to forget to publish thier mistakes...They are not a stupid people they no the score, and while most tolerate us and our presence they know it would be far worse under Taiban rule.... And while our military makes gains in Afghan every day....it is up to someone else to fight on the home front....which we are doing very poorly.... it is one of the reasons i post here....but it has been a lost cause for a long while...people just do not have the interest, as it does not effect they in anyway....except a few tax dollars....

There are many types of insurgents...but answer to your question None....although there has been clashes with Pakistani soldiers and border guards with NATO troops.... Hard core Taliban (terrorists) soft core Taliban (support people , fund raisers, etc) taliban soldiers ( fighting to feed thier family) Al Quaida (terrorists) Mercs (poeple paid to fight )mostly Russian, chechen, or other muslim countries, they are good at what they do and are rare in the south.... muslim radicals ( are normally paid, but some fight for free or for the adventure of it)

Hillier has also made jabs at the liberals, as do most military members, regardless of who they vote for....just so i'm clear does your party chose reflect if your a Yaho or not....does it make your professional opinion any less "say" professional or legitimate.... No he has been saying we have been punching above our weight in alot of areas.....Those areas are more due to the professionalism of our soldiers than it does our governmental role. For example NORAD, which equally protects both the US and Canada...most of the bill is payed out by the US government....most of the equipment used is American....and we as Canadians are OK with this...However NORAD is a large driving factor for our military defence policies, our military spending, and it also reflects our foreign policies.... Same with Can be said with NATO....currently we are involved in Afghan, and our Navy has some ship postions in the north atlantic....is this what you call pulling our wieght....when compared to other NATO partners.... Alot of things drive a military purchase, we as a military must remain inter operable with our prime defence partner, the US, our capability must work with thiers, plus they must be similar with eurpean NATO partners...that is a big driving piont, next is we don't have a big track record for making huge military purchases, and what we do buy we normally keep well after it's useful life is gone...this practice is why we don't have a large defence industry here in Canada, it is also more expensive to run older equipment which sucks when you have so much of it... Quality of product is another big piont, lots of garbage out there, and i know it is a mout piont but lifes depend on this equipment....most of the time the cheapest bidder gets the contract, something to remember that maybe one day your kids may be using it.... The military does alot of research on it's equipment purchases, it tests equipment from around the globe....and it is not allowed to asked for a specific make and model....but like other professionals they have preferences...so specs are written the weay they are.... After all the people that are doing the purchases are not Military but civilians, and they pick the equipment by the specs we provide, and they pick more than one example.... Politics play a huge role in equipment purchases, once again lifes take a second seat to money, jobs created, and votes....one day we'll all see just how stupid our system is and change it....i mean do we send our wifes down to buy our power tools, or does your wife send you down to pick out her next china set.......why is that....and do we buy the cheapest one available, or do we buy because it creats jobs or gets you votes... Although the Upholders are newer than the 40-year-old Oberon-class boats that our sailors used to operate, the British subs had never been on the navy's wish list as a replacement. sub When these were purchased it was lean times for the military, and i know the purchase baffeled alot of us ...as the military had already published it's wish list for that year and years to come and subs were not on it... There are others the famous LSVW, made by western Star in BC....Italian design this veh you could not find a worse veh in the world to buy....they had to take this veh to the desert in the states so it could pass it's final tests....but it created jobs...to bad those boys in BC could not of picked a better truck to build....they where crap, still are crap....only now there are rusting crap... We could argue the piont until one us turns blue....the piont is we where sent to Afghan with light equipment, for many reasons....because we where leaving Bosina and thats what was available, to costly to send in the heavy stuff, but like so many things we where short on we had adopted....and it was not until soldiers started to die that the G wagons where purchased, only a maginal better opition....and when the the member of parlimant was killed, the G wagons where declared non operational for afghan....every politician in the book has been there and when asked the soldier told them we need better equipment....but it was not until each piece had claimed x amount of lifes that it was replaced.... atleast that is how it looks on my side of the fence.... It makes since in lean times the first place they vist is the military, so when the GDP is down then military spending goes down, when it's up spending is up....

A scapegoat for what ? and why do i need a scapegoat ? because i believe that if you commit a crime that you should be punished for it ?

That would depend if you think mackenize and Hillier are yaahoos Your right but we need to move alot faster than we are now.... The Navy probably agrees with you, but those Subs where a polictical purchase not a DND need.....besides according to the navy we need a submerged capability..... You've heard the stories....and while you can blame it on changing tactics....i blame it on lack of drive to purchase the right equipment...until enough soldiers have died and the citizens demand something happen...

we still have those civilian helos....yes they are still there and flying mission when i left.... UAV's our current UAV's are rented from some firm in the US, we do have another version over there and it is military operated but the others are civilian owned and operated.... The RORO ship used to bring in bulk and hvy stores.... Tank haulers are rented of the Dutch i think it might be some sort of barter agreement, i don't know what as they got every thing over here from attack helos, fighters, tanks, the whole works.... Sat time is rented , no not to watch the hockey games....for militay stuff There is tonnes of stuff we rent....and still rent...

Built in 1972, upgraded 91,92,94...you failed to mention that we had 4 of which one was converted to a reef because of it's age...that has got to say something....there is no prgram in place to upgrade these ships once again...2 out 3 ofthese ships are in fro refit, not to be confused with overhaul, just maintance....YAAA your right it's just the Navy guys.... Commisioned in 69 and 70, never recieved a major over haul, current JSS program has been postphoned, still looking for a contractor...DND is rethinking JSS concept and now leaning towrds a regular single mission AOR...No date set for completion ...piont of note these have been promised to be replace in the mid 90's....But hey we are still getting them, we just don't know what....... Once again a design has not even been chosen, and the Mine warefare ships are still being used in a patrol capacity.... we purchased 4 of which 3 are still in EDWP(extended docking work period) so we've manged to make one work but it has alot of restrictions, To move mass amounts of troops and equipment, currently DND rents on to ferry in new Armoured vehs into Afghan and dead ones out....lets not forget the last time we rented a RORO ship it was hijacked and need a NAVY landing party to back our vehs... Yes we are but i think that had alot to do with not being able to fire smart wpns, being able to talk with other NATO aircraft, and that most of the other systems where to out of date....one of the very reasons we don't have fighter aircraft in Afghan, and in 2020 they will be even that much futher behind....but hey the airfoce guys could use flash lights and morse code to talk .... We have 2 CC150 that are still being converted to refuelers, and 2 C-130 kits for 80 aircraft We have x 2 arcturus in service now designed and built for artic surv, they will be retired soon....the conversions you talk about are happening to the remained of the fleet and involved talking out the ASW sensors, kind of defeats the purpose does it not of having a maritime patrol ves.....but hey it will have a ground surv sys which the RCMP love because it catches drug boats and bad guys....sorry it does not catch subs.... Yes we did for Afghan use only, DND is still looking for a whiole seris of UAVs A high alt long range version for artic surv....a UAV similar to the preditor a or b, for Afghan to patrol the roads etc etc .... Yes we did....lets also keep in mind that all those soldiers that recieve an escort back into Canada, where in a LAV veh at the time, odd's are if the soldier did not survive nor did the veh.....there is a critical shortage of these vehs, units in Canada have 1/3 to 1/2 the amounts they are suppose to have.... Yes we purchase 6 for afghan then just signed a contract for 34 more to outfit the regt in Canada....normally a Regt has between 18 and 24 guns....we have 3 operational Brigade groups....the french Gait gun is no longer allowed to be used, something about barrels cracking when fired...the other 105 mm gun well was made in the 1950's i believe....

Not true during the winnipeg floods the US NAVY had helos rescuing people off the roof tops , also the US Airforce assisted in moving our equipment and supplys around the country... During the Ice storms US military assistance was also there....

I'm afraid military life and politics do not mix well. There are plenty of speaches , papers, written by both sides of the border, all dated within the last 5 years.... There is a major difference in responding to a disaster when required, and footing the entire bill for planning, preparations supplies, etc etc hey you can't just spend a few bil , couple of C-17's , a CC150, contract for C130J and were good as new... over the last 6 years and expect to erode a repair bill well into the 100 to 150 bil range.... lets take a look at some things DND really needs Destroyers, AOR's, coastal patrol ships, Subs, Troop ship, Fighters, refuelers, martime patrol a/c, UAV's, new LAV fleet, new med wheel logistic truck fleet, New Hvy wheeled logistic truck fleet, new arty pieces, Spec ops equipment, Motars 120mm, tank upgrades, Sat capabilites, new comms equipment, winter suvival gear, combat equipment, pistols, etc etc ...the list would probably be shorter if we listesd the things we don't need.... just a key piont thats things we need it's not a wish list or a nice to have....it's a need list.... And while everyone in the military is extremily greatful at the increases in military funding you can't just throw up your arms now and say where done....almost everything we have purchased todate soldiers have paid for those upgrades with thier lifes....and frankly it's getting pretty boring to have to have soldiers die in order to get tax dollars to fix something that should have been fixed before the deployment started.... i know both of you support our military, but guys it is in terriable shape, and i'm not pionting fingers at anyone or any party, but something needs to get down....just to bring it up to modern levels....shit mech inf Bn only have enough LAV's for 1/2 to a 1/3 of thier peace time allotments....thats sad....and now we are burning out vehs faster, because we have to rotate them thru the 3 rifle companies and one support company the vehs never get a break....alot of our equipemnt is one of a kind, available only in Afghan, and those capabilities are rented or will be returned after that mission is completed....

Benny, are you saying because i never peed my pants it never happened...interesting assesment, maybe were lucky your not working in our mental health clinic...I'm sure they could tell you a few stories that would make you puke.... Actually i can discribe it very clearly if you'd like, and no i was not terrorized, sickened yes, angry yes, disgusted that someone or group of people could do such an act ....but never terrorized... But benny you don't have to believe me, there are hundrds of documented accounts of such acts, by the UN, amesty international, the list goes on.... And you can blame what ever you want for thier actions, but i do know that there is no religion , faith, or following that could make a man do what i saw over there....unless they enjoyed it , and lost a major part of thier humanity.

As do we all, but it does not stop someone from wanting reform does it... True enough, but in Canada's case it is not just our military that has been crying for more funding, other nations, other groups such as NATO, NORAD, all have been quoted as saying Canada is a free loader when it comes to it's commitments....and hey there has been plenty of media coverage, even signs such as Floods and ice storms.... small events that take almost all of our military forces to respond to....hence why we have agreements with the US for thier assistance....now if a huricane or earth quake was to cause a large event....who would respond... But i guess it would be easier to sit down and ingnore our military, because every military whines for more of everything....it's easy placing our soldiers lives indanger because we were to cheap to properly equip them for the jobs we did send them on....i mean it is what they signed up for...sure we'll shake there hands say thanks maybe buy them a beer....hear a few war stories....but when it comes to more tax dollars hell no way.... it is what makes us Canadian

Thats my fear that he will be codled and set free as his brothers did for the most part...and although i would not shed a tear for him if executed i would perfer justice be served and him held accountable for his actions as to send a clear message to the others...

One of the driving factors for Canada to be apart of it's current treaties, and agreements is because it does not have the means or will to properly defend itself....And i will agree Canadians have a long history of signing up to do thier share for the defence of this nation or the world... Let's not forget that close to 30 Canadians died in the downing of the towers, victims of a terrorist attack.... Canadian military has a pretty good selctive process when it comes down to recruiting, those that join just for a chance to fight are normally weeded out....that process is continued through out everything the miltiary does to ensure thier is a good and healthy mental balance in our soldiers.... And for the most part our governments have chosen the correct missions, they just have not done so well in providing us the support to win....but then again that is where the quality of our soldiers comes in...

If that is all i looked for in a party i'd say yes, It's been a topic of a few military papers, and i'd say yes....most of these distractions go over budget and that overage is taken out of the DND operating budget.... I'd say between 100 and 125 k should be enough, Basic mandates such as providing defence, providing for all our agreements and enforcing our foreign policy. It might surprise you that most in the military don't want a huge military, just enough to do the tasks assigned to us from the government.. nobody said anything about the size of WWII military.....But it would be nice to be able to properly defend our nation ....

I know i did not change your mind Oleg, and to most Canadians they see a small boy who's father has brain washed into commiting these types of acts, and they are willing to set this now young man free in our nieborhood...there is to many double standards for criminal acts....for instance it is ok to punish a boy under the age of 15 for murder and try him in a adult court....but we can't do the same a the same boy that has commited treason, terrorist acts in a foreign country....why is that... Your right and thier is a portion of the fight that is being brought again'st the drug lords....but currently the main focus is fighting the taliban...who is well funded by more than just drug money...

Oleg this is happening across the country, this is common taliban acts, and they are not common thuggery, beating someone daily is thuggery, taking all night to skin a man alive, is evil....cutting the hands off a little girl and making her watch her father die...is evil.....I want to remind you for just a second oleg that Canadians sent our troops over here to engage these evil mothers to take the fight to them....and perhaps give the normal people of Afghan a hope at peace..... I want you to place yourself in thier shoes, had that old man been your father, that you watched all night scream in pain as they ripped his skin off ....would you give a rats ass how those responsable were treated....or would you still have the MORAL high ground, and demand a fair trail, and life in prison.....

Oleg before the fire fight began, 3 Afghan soldier went over to knock on the front door, of the building in which khadr and his merry band of terrorist where 2 where gunned down in the door step, the 3 rd was gunned down running away....Khadrs buddies sealed everyones fate with that action....including his....once he armed himself he became a combatant and therefore a target.... He had plenty of time to surrender, airstrikes take time to call in and time to coordinate.....he was outside the main bldg, or he would have been killed in the airstrike....he could have gave him self up at any time before.... To answer your question, yes...they can defend themselfs...that being said how long do you think you'd last when his buddies came looking for him....do you think they are going to believe you that you where defending yourself....remember your in a war zone death and destruction is all around you ...i'd say your life would be measured in milli seconds....

No benny, to me he is just a terrorist, I've seen first hand thier work, from the damage and destruction of thier IED's, sucide bombers, attack on old men and women, including removing all the skin from a 70 year old man and staking him out on the ground to bake in the sun .His crime was talking to NATO soldiers....to removing a little girls hands and murdering her father in front of her because she went to school....they enjoy thier work, they take pride in terrorizing thier own people, they won't stop until they can force they're will upon the majority....unless you've lived in total fear of a group of people you'll not comprehend what it is like.... I don't need khadr as a scapegoat i've seen his kind , thier work, Khadr needs to go back and face those very people he helped terrorize, to face thier justice.....not ours...