Army Guy

Black dog: Chemical warfare is not against the rules, but i get your piont...it does seem alittle crazy to have rules in a time of complete caus....however we are civilized people who are not going to give -up warfare and the rules are thier to limit it's effects.... No, i am a soldier, that has accepted that as long as man has been around there has been war and unless some major event happens to change that war is always going to be around....does it truely matter if it is a cindition or failure.... If all the great minds of our times have not been able to change that would you not accept it has a condition...

Black dog: And if there was a change in goverment say to a communist state do you think your rights and freedoms would not change....And if it did change and Canada suspended your rights what would the UN do...what could it do...Not all human beings are born free, and are equal in dignity they are in Canada but not across the globe....Slavery still exists in alot of countries....are those starving to death in Africa equal in dignity and rights...those caught up in war torn countries are they equal ..the UN may proclaim what ever it wants it lacks the power to enforce it...And because Canada signed some paper does not mean you are guarenteed anything as it could change in a flash...like in the former Yugo, Iraq,Iran, and place there has been a regime change...Canadian goverment gave you tall your rights because there is a pay off for them....regardless of what some paper says... Name on country in the world that has acted truely because it was the right thing to do...and had no national interest involved....There has to be a pay off...regardless of the intention of the deed

Hugo: If you had truely visted dachau what feelings did you have when you walked through the camps seen all those big posters on the walls of the people and thier conditions or walked through the mass grave site in the back ...or walked through the ovens and smelled that sickening sweet ordour....... Have you and your grandfather talked about his war experiences... No i don't and if you could not convince the 1/2 dozen or so others involved in that post that your theories are valid how could you convince an intellectual gaint as myself....I've been to countries like Somila that was ruled by thugs and war lords and in the back country it was every man ,women for themselfs....Survival of the fittest....and you and your theories would not do well there. War is not a ceastion of rules, but a political tool which the people around the globe have decided needed rules....yes certain rights and privilages have been suspended...but everything is governed by rules... Does another person have the right to agress anyone....even if that they believe it is there right.....and my question to you was would you use deadly force to protect you, your family, your friends and your land....which brings me to the land question who decides it is your land...and why can you use deadly force to protect it if you don't truely own it... Are you saying your theories are invalid or impractical or that it would not be possiable under this form of goverment ....

Hugo: Well thats the solution build a time machine and reverse the worlds bad decisions...it all boils down to adam and eve does it not... if adam had not eaten the apple and god has not release all those bad desires ....Lets blame Eve and that short fig leave.... It is part of thier doctrine...you tell me why ? answer man... I've answered your question as best as i'm able ...if that is truely not enough for you then sorry....ask someone else...I am not forcing you accept it that is what i believe and is my opinion... I believe i have already answered this question and have included those that you mention in the group....and i have already answered this question in above posts...i'd be interested in hearing what you do for a living ...and what do you contribute to life and your surroundings ....or is it that you can only slam those that you envy.... And do you honestly think 30 million people can live together with each having thier own agenda...thier own ideas on how life should be lived...I'd be interested on how this new country dealt with every day problems like policing, fire fighters, courts, let alone criminals, like murders, rapist, child molesters....I mean everyone has to be free and we can not impose on thier freedoms ...can we... That Pap as you call it is happening every day, every minute of every hour of every day...those that have been on the recieving side are very greatful... again you are entitled to your opinion...it is obvious you have an axe to grind be it with the defense dept, or our elitist goverment as you call them...but you should sit down, and ask what rights or freedoms have you given yourself that have not been given to you by the goverment, what have you done to change what you don't like except to bitch about it like a teenager...........what have you done to contribute to 30 million people in this country or is it just me me me..... Yes, you'll have to wait the evidance is out there and regardless of what i post i don't think you'll read it any how or atleast try to understand it....I believe i've answered all your question to the best of my abilities...if you have a specific question then i'll answer it...

Hugo: Below is my quote word for word, at no time did i say you knew nothing i said if you could not clearly see the difference then you need to look at a history book... If you DID vist dachau then you would clearly know the difference and would not have to have it spelled out for you.......and that i'd been to 4 concentration camps, but that does not mean that i am a subject matter expert, any more than you are so what difference would it have made in your reply .... Judging by your posts here you still don't get it and perhaps you should re vist dachau... then you and only then would know why your alleged grandfathers deeds make him a hero and someone who is a better person... as he had a part in ending those crimes.... Sure that would work...no goverment means no law, no order, no nothing....who would defend you and yours ...YOU someone opposed to violence.... Try to use your own quotes and ideas....i already have a debate with BD...i don't need to have 2 with the same person.... The piont is we have rules for everything we do in life...including war... So you believe that the genva convention does nothing to protect anyone....is that your piont... To what degree are you willing to protect them ...are you willing to take someones life....remember you can not violate any of thier rights as well or so you and BD have quoted to me....i'd be interested on hearing how it is your going to defend them.... So you ask your family if you can defend them, you've asked your friends if you can defend them...or is thier an unwritten rule that you don't have to ask...what if there is no time to ask.....do you own your family...or your friends.... Does the goverment ask everyone in canada who agrees should we defend ourselfs and what do we do when someone says no...do we stop or do we exclude them from the fighting ...do we ask them to leave ....what...

Black dog: It may sound outdated and ridiculous to you, it is honour that soldiers are taught as a value...it keeps a soldier from commiting war crimes, it creates unit cohesiveness Knowing that you will not be left behind for example...it reinforces the rules of war...There is no honour in killing i've said that many times ....Honour is the HOW a soldier carry's out his duties on the battle field... Yes they are products of the goverment. They were designed and given to you by the goverment. formed by the people so that we could co exist together in a large group........and yes the goverment can take those away...rights and freedoms are not garenteed by anyone else other than the goverment... I did not say that, but implied that our values and morals push us to help other nations that have either asked for it, or the situation dictates....whom may inspire to have some of the rights and freedoms we have...they also push us to act when others are not being treated fairly or what we proclude to be fairly.

Black dog: Regardless pick any nation that suits you...it picked nations that not having a military would more in likely mean the collaspe of the state...the question remains the same. If you had a large group of the population that agreed with you...do you not think they would not affect change...No they are not obliged to listen...unless they don't care to get re-elected...at least under our current system the possiabilty to effect change is there...Very rarely in Canada's history has it used violence and force to shut down opposition or the PC would off declared open season on liberals...(joke) Yes the state has the power, but ultimateily it's the people that have the power...be it through the election process or through revolt...

Black dog: Because he has dishonoured Himself, his unit, and the other soldeirs past and present...he has tarnished what being a soldier is all about.... Unfortunately War is about attrition ...politions and the people of that country decide when the price of loss of life, Loss of land etc ... is worth the cost of what ever the are fighting over....when they have reached that cost they will sue for peace or surrender... It is a soldiers job to perform that job as honorable as possiable... Freedom has a cost not just monitary, Freedom has always cost a nation..lives ...both civilian and military...with out freedom there would be no rights or other freedoms... What price do you put on all your current rights and freedoms...would you just hand them over with out a fight to a hostile nation....or would you fight... They are not, however...what right does another nation have in taking your rights.. As for Canada getting involved in peacekeeping or peacemaking it is our values and morals that every Canadian has that dictates why we should help other nations in achieving the same rights and freedoms that we enjoy....

Black Dog: What do you think would happen to a state or nation like Israel today, if they had 0 military forces, what would you think would happen to Iran or kuwait, if the had no military forces hence no soldiers...that those nations had decided not to have soldiers or were unwilling to fight or defend thier nation...or they were unwilling to kill or harm anyone...Who would defend thier rights or freedom..what rights and freedoms would they have. Again, having a military force in todays world is a must if not just as a deterrance to other hostile nations...The military does prevent challages to the establish order...it is part of the military (defending Canada and her interests both at home and abroad) part of the oath of alligence...You are forgetting that this evil goverment you are talking about that will invoke this measures is the one the most Canadians voted in...we the people chose...and if you are not satisfied with decisions they make ....then lobby to have those decisions changed...The country belongs to the people not the ruling party at the time.... That being said yes history is full of examples of the many militaries being used for other reasons but gentlemen this is Canada we are talking about not some third world country....and the chances of the military getting out of hand are unlikely...

Hugo: NO,and If they had we would not be over there would we,Your going to tell me what that Canada should not be involved in the War in terrorism....then tell me Sadam was an ok guy, a real party animal, and the US and the coalition forces have no right or no cause to be in Iraq....This is the impression that i get from reading your posts, Soldiers hand out candy to gather a crowd then spray them with bullets...all in the name of peace enforcement...Do you believe that the taliban forces were good, and should not have been removed from power... Your taking bits and peices from my posts to serve your own purpose...your using one example, you fail to mention the winnipeg floods,the ice storm ,forest fires, SAR, ...you also fail to mention the schools,hospitals,abulances,fire halls, wells, roads, that we build and much much more, the only one that sticks out in your mind is the candy that was handed out to kids that were begging in the streets, ...what i failed to mentioned was that same guy was later killed by a suicide bomber... Soldiers are better people because they put thier lives at risk, not only in the defense of our country, but ensuring that other countries that do not have the means to become free of War, free of those that bring war and destruction...free to make thier own decisions...they risk thier lives during hundrds of other operations SAR, search for lost children, fighting forrest fires(unless you think killing forrest fires are Bad)assist Canadians when they are in need.... we assist other countries in thier time of need by providing much needed medical, water, food during diasters, we fly in food and supplies into countries that are still at war providing direct link ups with the red cross and other NGO orgs, when nobody else will fly into those countries. We train civilains in war torn areas how to de-mine areas safely, we provide medical assistance to those in war torn countries, we dig wells irrigation ditchs for thier crops..... They do all this on a shoe string budget with equipment that desparatly needs to be replaced....we have never failed to answer a call from our goverment...we have always been thier for the people of Canada when they needed us, we have always projected everything that is good about Canada to other countries, and we have never asked for anything....in return...There is alot more to being a soldier than Combat... Nice link, very educational...the study was done however over 10 years ago.... You did misunderstand the piont on (They had done all the studies, and found that generally the military encourages wife-beating to go no further than the offender's C/O.) you are forgetting that these soldiers have already been charged in a civilian court of law.... Because you can not charge a person twice for the same crime, thier CO has the powers to charge that individual for other service related offenses, ( note that this charges are automatic as stated by armed forces policy) plus take adminstrative action such as manatory courses or classes, such as Agression control, substance abuse,stress mangement, and many many more....(note that these to are automatic and are recommended by Doctor, or concilor )most of these courses or classes are outside of the military chain of command so the military has no influence ....and last until the problem is cured, or they overcome it. You also fail to mention that a service person can only be put on adminstrative action once for the same thing if the problem is repeated any time during thier carear it is an automatic release from the forces... So they are charged in a civlian court a military members must pay out of thier own pocket and fees occur,ie lawyer, court costs ,fines etc etc....plus do any other courses or class as mandated by the court...then when he reports into work he goes through the same process, the CO charges him for any service offenses, and applies all those adminstrative measures then sends him to a specialist to be evaluated , then that individual attends all the corrective courses and classes recommended...during all this the CO is kept informed of progress, attendance, etc...etc... I'm not going to tell you there are not repeat offenses...but thier are not a third as member is fired.... there is a Zero tolerance policy within DND...How many other organizations go this far in prevention or control. There is a problem i think you may have been confused with the dates...you did state that your Grand father was on the Dieppe raid did you not....this happend AUG 1942 and Canada did not impliment conscription until Nov 1944 well after D-Day...So how could he have been ordered to show -up...The only way he could have been on the dieppe raid is if he volenteered on his own accord... I did not say that the military had the market on better people or more heroic people I said that they were better than most ordinary citizens....Yes those that you have mention are better people adn they have there share of hero's as well...funny that police officers did not make your list...I guess they do nothing for you because they may have to take a live in the line of duty....to me they are better people because risking thier lives daily for you and me makes them that way.... (It proves that, contrary to your previous accusations, I do actually know something about death camps. Are you going to apologise now, or just try and pretend it never happened?) Do you mean the statement i posted below, can you piont out to me just what part of that statement you have taken offence to....What accusation did i make...and why you feel you need an apology.... Yes i do defend this system it may not be perfect but it is light years ahead of other forms of goverment such as communism, or dictatorship...because with out do you honestly believe that the 33 million people of Canada would be one nation, do you believe we would be as well off as we are now....do you believe you and i would have the rights we have now... Without it North america would be like the wild west no law ,every person for thier selfs...sounds fun...great place to raise kids....Oh i forgot your agains't taking lives would you take a live if it meant protecting your family, or friends... Do you have a better system of goverment... Why is it that almost every nation has a military or personal in a military......to defend thier nations from other hostile nations (note i said hostile) that might want to sieze thier lands and impose thier will on those people ....(history is full of examples including most recently) Do you honestly believe they would do that with out a shot fired...and could you defend a nation without a shot fired....maybe we could arm wrestle for it... Someone has to stand-up and fight or the people have to sit down and take what the hostile nation dishes out... Having a standing army is a deterant it makes hostile nations think twice about invading perserving a life free from aggression..however with out a standing army those citizens have to take what ever the world hands out...it makes them more vunerable to hostile nations ....someone has to stand-up and enforce that right to be free from aggresion and that is where the soldier comes in.... The human race has developed rules,instructions, and directions for everything we do from building a peanutbutter,jam sandwich to Space travel they are there to assist us, ensure the jobs gets done quicly and effieciently, or for safety reasons. The Rules of war are designed to prevent or minimise unnessicary civilian caus, to stop War crimes, to minimise the effects of war....There is nothing honourable about War...or it's conduct... The convention does more than any oother document to protect everyones rights and freedom, before the convention warfare was conducted however they wanted, or by an unwritten code of conduct, dating back before Knights.etc... (The greatest evils in history came about because people judged others as members of a group, not as individuals) the history of warfare begins with the history of Man ...War will be part of mans history for a long time to come... If you are unwilling to defend what is yours and are willing to allow others to defend you and yours then you forfiet that right to judge them... I have been on 6 different operations in my carear, myself and those that were with me have done nothing to embrass my country ,our unit, or ourselfs...and when i'm old a grey reflecting back on my military time, there won't be a need to wash anything off...

Hugo: What event or incident are you basing this on ?....or are you making it up as you go along.....This discusion has been based on Canadian and US soldiers.... WTF....a womens mag ...thats it no publishers name no date, your joking me right...you've made a serious accusation here and this is the best you can do....Give me a break...Canadian soldiers are subject to all the laws you are, plus they are also subject to the Code of military discipline as well....Assault in any form is dealt with right away, and is not tolerated...Wife beating is considered an act of cowardice within the military... cowards do not make good soldiers... I would bet my pay check that the numbers for the military are well below the national avg...."Beating your wife is encouraged" must of missed that class...please refrain for making these blind comments without some valid research or proof.... Yes your grandfather is a hero...He stood up and answered the call of his country when others did not...He risked everything because he believed in that cause...to preserve our rights and freedoms we have today...Regardless of his scares he his a hero, and a much better person than most...we and this country owe him alot...regardless of what you may think of his deeds...Ask him if he thinks it was worth it...ask him if he would do it all over again...he is a better man than you or me...... Yes as a young boy my father took us to see Dachau, and while i was posted to Germany i toured Natzweiler france and Bergen Belson Germany...plus one in that the serbs ran Yugoslavia. What does that prove....nothing... I must be.. Soldiers don't start wars...they fight them...politions start wars...and have there citizens fight them....Soldiers don't destroy freedoms and rights they defend them....as for the enemies rights and freedoms they are protected under the genva convention ....if your opinon is to turn the other cheek then fine...I personally believe there is some things in life that are worth fighting over...rights and freedoms are one of them...Does that give you the right to judge me...or others...

Black dog: The Military is accountable to it's goverment who the people have voted into power.( you and ME) Just as much as any other dept within the goverment. The cuban missle crisses was the only time that the CAF has acted outside of orders given by the Goverment in it's entire history.....It done so when the world was on the brink of Nuclear war...had they not acted the worlds fate "may" have been different today....in other words they believed that action was in the best interest of the people not thier own....( how would engaging Russian war ships been in thier own interest....) Do you really think that Canada's Armed forces are acting in it's best interest now, can you honestly tell me that with the state that our forces are in now....And would you say that the US of A is not a heavily militarized country, are you telling me that they are running the country or is Bush making all the decisions. Has Canada's Dept of National Defense in it's entire history ever broke that faith...has it ever given you the opinion that one day it may break that faith ....Has it ever had a coup....No....it has not....Yes it is one of the most powerful depts within the Goverment and it does pocess the means to over throw that goverment ....However I think you over look the power of the People... if united they have more power than any military could muster.... i think in todays Canada your fears are misplaced... So you are saying that Sadam and his crew posed no threat to the world or the unstable peace in the area....Are you saying that we should have ignored sadam and all his actions...or are you saying that the world was a better place with Sadam in power.... Soldiers are conditioned to accept alot of things most deal with the survival of the group as a whole ....However other than that soldiers are as free thinking as you when it comes to worldviews....those views change as they gain experience, and see the results of those world views, we rarily get deployed to the worlds vacation spots, seeing the effects of war first hand over and over does that....The opinions i express here on this forum are mine and mine alone....and should not be considered the opinions of all or any soldiers in Canada's military.... My piont is That soldiers believe they are defending your rights 24 hours a day 7 days a week and are at the call of thier goverment .. They know there are Canadians that believe other wise, or are currently acting agains't those believes for example the plow shares program ....they know that when they answer the call from our goverment it will be for all Canadians regardless of thier opinions or actions.... It was Pattons quote but clint did use it in the movie... Was not my quote, But you know that ...it gets confusing when others read the post to avoid confusion in the future could you please post who the quote was from... No the actual question was: How would a person trained to accept and use brutal, lethal violence in the pursuit of certain ends be a "better person"? I got the impression that he believed that any trained soldier was unable to show anything but violence....hence my question... I think you'll find the below web sites answer that question, and address legitimate reasons not to fight....You don't have to kill anyone in combat but you have to show-up... Desertions are a completly different problem, and yes they have been imprisoned and Canada has excuted one person during the second War for desertion... There is no laws or regulations that state you must kill the enemy or for that matter anyone....The law is clear however that you must serve.... My Webpage My Webpage

Hugo: Are you saying that a person trained in lethal force is incapable of compasion... Are you telling me that the guys in my section over in Afgan that jumped out of an armour persoanal carrier...into a crowd to give out candies to children risking thier own lives is not capable of compasion....are you telling when our govermant backed out of funding a new hospital in our Area of operations and the soldiers dug into thier own pockets plus serveral funding drives that was not an act of compassion.... The Canadian military spends as much time and money teaching every soldier restraint and life skills as it does on war fighting skills.... Thats a pretty big claim i hope you can back that up with a link or two... The fact of the matter is that soldiers are not only responaible for civil offences under the crimanal code but also the military code of disipline ...beat your wife and you are found guilty you face two courts and two separate hearings and charges....I think you should research that alittle bit more.... Your granfather was suffering from PTSD...and drinking was his way of handling it...today they are getting better at treating it...but it is still there...I think he is a hero....and you should tell him so... would it made any difference if he had been defending Canada on her shores or outside of his home town...he volenteered because he believed that the germanys needed to be stopped... No they are not, but are you impling that all soldiers do this or just a few...are you saying that the civilian population in your area does not get drunk on the weekends or don;t get charged with assualt... I don't recall calling anyone a coward....or impling it what i did say however that soldiers were better people than the average person (just added that) because they have or agree to... risk thier own lives to ensure the majority of the population does not have to fight and can maintain their freedom ... Goverment A i take it was the Nazi's and they were not protecting any interests but cleansing Europe of the unwanteds....through chemical warfare,shooting straving, being worked to death, or beaten....If you can not clearly see the difference you really need to look at a history book ......or go to goggle and search death camps... Goverment B i have no idea who you are refering as i don't recall anyone being threaten with force to sign up...but perhaps you are one of those that perfer not to fight and can not understand why someone else would sacrafice everything they have for freedoms and rights . You are joking right....you need to open a book ....our lives would be kinda like now...ya as long as your not jewish, Jypsy, Russian or slavic, or of any other race other than white...and even then you had to be pure german...to be safe....Kinda like now...have you been outside of North America... every time i come home from an operations i kiss the ground....and thank God that i'm a Canadian. we have so much while others have so little....not only in pocessions but in rights and freedoms.... I as a Canadian have as much freedom as i can handle right now...and i'm sure that the kind lady in the white dress will be by shortly with your meds .... everything will be alright...stay away from the windows... I don't mean to mock you but what freedoms do i lack...

Black dog: He also said in the same movie...A soldiers job not to die for his country but to make the other SOB die for his.... Soldiers are not stupid people , and you give them no credit ..don't you think after the had everything they had lost in the WWI and started to invade France don't you think they would have known that they were no longer defending anything but instead invading europe... There is no allegely, they will and have been defending all your rights and projecting Canada's values around the globe....Like it or not....as for the blokes, i'll leave that up to them....and your imagination...I would say i don't think they'd be happy ....and if you were looking to start a bar fight that would probablily do it... I think the historical answer was Canada wanted to fight in europe so it could keep the fighting as far from Canada as possiable...WWI, the majority of Candians wanted the country to assit Britain or the mother land....WWII the same reason only more on Canada's terms and you can't tell me that Canada suffered economically during WWII

Black dog: I am familar with the War measures act, just as most Canadains. It's an act that provides the goverment with the powers to act in the best interest of the country....and it does temporily suspends some of the citizens rights that are grant to them key words are temporily and goverment ...you know the one that we all voted in...the one that can change the act if there was enough support by the people ...And it is the military that is general the instrument of implimentation...but that is not an example of soldiers taking away or destroying any rights that have been given to them ....it's an example of the Goverment ordering a temporily limitation...I'M not familar with the winnipeg general strike so i will not comment on it .....However the NW rebellion was an RCMP operation and again they were acting on the goverments orders as they were dealing with a threat... And they are instrments of the state to a piont...there has been cases were the military has acted agains'nt the state for the better of the country...Cuban missle crisses...prime example....Canadain military deployed against the wish of our goverment....I also believe that to be true today...Our military leaders will not obey orders that are unlawful or not in the publics best interest.... Yes , you are in fact correct but that would be impossiable without the freedom to do so....IE it was extremly hard for thinkers to make any changes in the Nazi regime .... I think it is a medical picture, that some how the insurgents got a hold off... It is geared more towards the installations and equipment ...but if said journalist was in the struture they would be collatoral dammage...To answer your question...Yes,terrorism or murder depending on why the killing was done...again journalists are not a form of communication... Does this mean now we are bringing in town cryers...everyday at noon everyone can gather at the town center and listen to the news....I believe there are enough forms of media today that if one wants one can stay informed....or are we going to force them to watch or listen...... How many times have you used a search engine looking for a certain topic and your search comes up with unrelated topics ...I once looked up dog food and ended up with 3 porno sites how the two are related i don't know but it happens ...my piont is family and friends of this soldier may accidently find these pictures or have them sent to them...we both have agreed they are extremly graphic and would cause them undo grief....so why have them at all...i know that anything and everything is available on the net....but there is a need for some controls ...as they have put on child porn etc etc...Censorship is a slippery slope and common sense must prevail... The problem with estimates is they are just that estimates, Unfortunatly accurate counts are not kept...even if we both agree that 100,000 is correct over 4 years those figures for Canadain traffic deaths are pretty close...and our popualtion base are very similar...

Black dog: The above is your quote is it not....how do you get the below meaning out what you wrote above.... No, if you read my quopte again, you'll see I said the majority joined up for reasons other than "the cause". Maybe it was financial, or maybe it was educational, but I wonder how many fighting in Iraq actually belive their leade's rhetoric. Hence why i asked you do you think there is a problem, that US service men are joining just to kill Arabs... as your comment suggests if you did not mean to suggest it why did you mention it. Do you honestly believe that there is a problem ...that American service persons are joining up only to kill Arabs....is that the reason the are having recruiting problems because everyone wants to sign up and kill Arabs... There is alot more to it than just believing in a cause, their goverment, Thier Country, thier patriotism, thier moral values, and thier up bringing all plays a big role on thier decision to join up and serve thier country. And it does make them a better person.... How does that make them a better person, Because they are willing to fight or defend all the rights and freedoms that you enjoy today, to ensure that you have them tommorrow....And they are willing to lay thier lives down to accomplish that...But hey, everyone is entitled to an opinion and if you don't see that as an unselfish act and one that is honorable then that is your opinion....I just would not express those views in front of vets or currently serving soldiers... What interest did our country have in defeating the germans in WWI and WWII what interest did we have in korea....are you saying that those wars Canada should not have gotten involved...that those that died in them were wasted... Care to prove that, and provide me a link...Explain to me how Canadian soldiers have held back or destroyed any of your rights that you have today....If it not been for the acts of Canada's soldiers on the battlefields just what rights do you think the Nazi's would have gave you....The unions, civil rights advocates, etc were made up of alot of ex service men who fought for those very rights...and to ensure me and you held on to the rights we have now....Don't give me that crap that scholars, intelects gave you everything we have today....without freedom you would have nothing.... Is it tell me how the showing of this picture in question can be good for said soldier or his family and friends....if that was your son lying on that table would you want to see this picture...would you want it on the net .... Lets try to debate about something you know about....any and all media outlets are prime military targets,TV, Radio,and Print...as they are means of communication without them the enemy is limited to military communication which can easily jammed... plus has no means of cummunicating with the civilians to cause unrest, or unwanted attacks... And really, I make an effort to make myself informed of the "other" side: how many others do that and how many more simply accept the dominant narratives of the western media? Who cares what the other people are doing if they are not going to take the effort and inform themselfs then they deserve to be misled...but that does not give us the right to use this soldiers dead body to educate those that are to lazy to educate themselfs. Explain to an old army guy how you can do both....and explain to me what censorship means to Canadains and why we have it.... Like I said before that is your opinion, In my opinion ,it means support those that are doing the fighting and dying ...it does not mean that you support your goverments decision to go to war....those soldiers need that support as well as thier families... Like i said before, everyone has his or her own reasons why they join the military or why the sign up to fight....but they do... Please go to that site again, this time read the bottom portion it includes Civ cas and deaths...And i think you miss the piont of all those stats "more Canadains are killed in traffic accidents in one year than all the cas in Iraq....it also goes to show you that the US suffers more murders than all those killed in Iraq.... Why did i show you these ...to disbute why we do not publish extremly graphic photos of those events when it is clear that more people die here on our roads or are murdered ....if there ever was a cause that people need to be educated on it would be one of those two.... I also want to make it clear that i am not trying to negate any of those deaths that are happening in Iraq due to conflict...but to piont out that we do not use those type of pictures to educate a clearly larger problem , and why we should not use them to dishonour or cause undo harm to those family members or friends of this young soldier who has paid with his life....

Black dog: It was disbuting your claim below. Like i said before those numbers are taken from a palestinian web site, it's ironic they don't mention any additional numbers or support your claims that would be to thier benifit. I'm not saying they are not true just they are not mentioned... Again according the this PA site they cliam they are the adminstrative authority...they are in control of the goverment,police forces and thier security forces ....sounds like control to me... Yes they do, that is not disbuted...but Israel claims that the PA authority can not control the Terrorists ,or it's citizens Just what is Israel to do turn the other check...I do agree with you that these incursions do nothing but provide excuses for more violence....that said the PA has to also control it's own people... They may not conduct the raids, but they have condoned them and have encouraged them....They have done nothing in routing these groups out of thier lands. You have a funny way of showing that. a majority of your post place blame on Isreal and say very little of the PA and thier reponsabilty in all this... I believe if you re read my posts i have repeatly admitted that Israel is not pure good or that i agree with everything that Israel has done....but instead tried to show you that the palestinians are just as much to blame for thier current plight. It has been my experiance that constructive engagement is not going to work, it has not worked in any peace keeping mission i've been on....total separation is the way you have to start....if the palestinian claims are true all want is there land back....It is going to take great effort to accomplish just that one objective...your not going to get the State of Israel to pay welfare for a hostile state as well.... The other Arab countries are going to have to take on that role...until peace stabizes and the people are given a cooling off period... Israel has every legal right to shut its borders to any state or group....and how would that chock the life out of the last palestinian if the truely want peace ,to have thier own state, to build thier own nation then why would it matter....They have a sea port, access to the out side world...

shakeyhands: What is the big difference ?, do those families not greive the same way,over thier lost one.... or do you believe that soldier does not have the right or for that matter earned the right to peace...to be buried by his family so they may carry on with thier lives...

Eureka: How is it different, we are talking about needless death and destruction are we not....then why is it we do not see extremly graphic pictures on these deaths below...we are talking about making the public more aware....making the world a safer place.... Below are a few statistics on death here in Canada and the US. It should be noted that these are for "ONE" year only In Canada: There were 2,778 deaths due to motor vehicle traffic collisions in the year 2001 - a rate of 8.9 deaths per 100,000 population.1,2 In 2000-2001 there were 24,403 hospital admissions for traffic-related injuries, corresponding to a rate of 79 hospitalizations per 100,000 population.3 Many victims are young and traffic collisions are a leading cause of premature death and long term disability. Motor veh accidents. Violent crimes causing death in Canada. Murders in Canada. ---The murder count for 1995 totaled 21,597, a total 7 percent lower than 1994 and 13 percent lower than 1991. The murder rate was 8 per 100,000 inhabitants. ---Based on supplemental data received, 77 percent of murder victims in 1995 were males, and 88 percent were persons 18 years or older. By race, 49 percent of victims were black and 48 percent were white. ---Data based on a total of 22,434 murder offenders showed that 91 percent of the assailants were males, and 85 percent were 18 years of age or older. Fifty-three percent of the offenders were black and 45 percent were white. ---Fifty-five percent of murder victims were slain by strangers or persons unknown. Among all female murder victims in 1995, 26 percent were slain by husbands or boyfriends, while 3 percent of the male victims were slain by wives or girlfriends. ---By circumstance, 28 percent of the murders resulted from arguments and 18 percent from felonious activities such as robbery, arson, etc. ---In approximately 7 out of every 10 murders reported during 1995, firearms were the weapons used FBI murder rates. American Deaths Since war began (3/19/03): 1714 1346 Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list) 1577 1238 Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 1247 1042 Since Handover (6/29/04): 848 713 Since Election (1/31/05): 282 241 American Wounded Official Estimated Total Wounded: 12896 15000 - 38000 My Webpage Judging by the above stats it seems that you guys picked the wrong cause ...figures seem to sugest that it is alittle safer in Iraq than on our own streets....and forget about the US....

Black dog: Do you honestly believe that there is a problem ...that American service persons are joining up only to kill Arabs....is that the reason the are having recruiting problems because everyone wants to sign up and kill Arabs... There is alot more to it than just believing in a cause, their goverment, Thier Country, thier patriotism, thier moral values, and thier up bringing all plays a big role on thier decision to join up and serve thier country. And it does make them a better person.... How about asking yourself who gave you your rights to ask those questions...Soldiers gave you those rights Men and women that fought and risked thier lives to enusre our way of live remained as it is today....And yes it is not only your right to ask those questions but your responsabilty as a citizen to ask those questions of our goverment to ensure it is the right decision. With all that said what is your right to dishonour this soldiers death, by causing undo harm to his famly and friends. Threaten by whom ? and yes all media centers are legitimate targets during any military operation....BD your a smart guy, you can not tell me that you believe everything you see on the media....you and i know that if you want to get the full truth about what is going on in the world then you have to go to other sources...Arab TV shows another slant watch both and take the average... My question is WHY does the public need to be exposed to highly graphic pictures like the one in question...The majority of the public does not want to see those pictures...nither does those vets returning from combat, or the families of the dead....Do we not show "them" any compasion or do we just tell them thanks for coming out oh by the way here is pictures of your husbands boots because that is all that we could find as he was blown up by an RPG....why are we doing this because the public has the right to know....we need to see those pictures so "we" know what wars effects are....When did we become so cold... They are showing you the results, Just not in extremly graphic pictures. And it's to late to decide anything once the death and destruction is started, you've made a commitment ,soldiers are paying for that commitment with thier lives , changing ones mind after the fact is telling those soldiers that their lives meant nothing. As for The public deciding ...If they don't already know that war has terriable effects before the decision to send troops over then something is wrong....then perhaps the public needs to get off it's a$$ and do something about that situation. They don't need extremly graphic pictures to do that... Soldiers already know the risks of war, slogans like "support the troops" are used to rally the people to show those that have agreed to fight for thier country that they are being supported and thier families are being looked after....you live in a nation that gives you the right to freedom of speach,ETC you can use that freedom any way you choose...but you do not have the right to judge "ANY" of those that have taken up arms to defend thier nation, or its ideals.... I don't believe that statement, everyone can be motivated to bear arms and fight for thier country..... That was part of it, ask a recruit at the recruiting center (why are you joining ) Number one answer is (to serve my country, and for the adventure and to see the world) Ask a trained soldier why he is fighting Number one answer is (to protect is buddies, his section,his platoon,to ensure they make it back in one piece) They'll tell you out right it's not for his country or out of Patriotism.... When they get back home they will tell you the standard answer....I answered the call of my country and fought for my buddies...

eureka: I will agree with you that pictures are a more powerful media than script...a tasteful picture can also tell a powerful story...IE when the allieds liberated the concentration camps there were thousands of pictures taken, pictures of the dead piled high, pictures showing the conditions of those that survived.those told a very powerful story all without showing graphic pictures of bodies that were mutalated by guards, half eaten by prisoners, bodies that were 1/2 decomposed from waiting to be burned or buried.... They told a story, that needed to be told, all with showing as much respect to those that were photoed. These photos are in most history books and can be viewed by ANYONE at any age.... If you think that you have found the Holy grail that will stop wars by showing it's effects...your sadly mistaken....The only thing that is going to stop wars is by changing the way man settles disagreements....war has been around since man learned to use a club, and is here to stay long after we are gone....you really want to make a difference then send your politions to fight.... And these pictures are going to change that ? the people will stand up and revolt.... how much civil unrest did Vietnam cause the US goverment and how long did that war go on for....These pictures will not stop our goverment from sending soldiers to war, niether will it's citizens .... lets not forget one thing Pictures did not bring you peace, Soldiers and thier sacrafice brought you peace...Soldiers made up of ordinary people from all walks of life, citizens that answer a call from thier country and served ,risking thier lives and spilling thier blood thats what brought you peace....Pictures told thier story but that is all they did.... As for relative peacefulness you are talking about Canada and the sense that Canada is not involved in a major conflict. Because at this time in the world there are 36 conflict zones of every size people are dying every second from war and conflict....but hey maybe those people never got to see those pictures... They get to see it every day How is it that Iraq and the war is being sanitized, I've seen plenty of news footage of the war, and the dead from both sides have been shown, the conditions of war have been shown, the effects of war have been shown....they have shown american soldiers dead laying in a pool of blood, however you can not make out who the soldier is, or who the person is....out of respect for the dead....they show American soldiers who have been wounded and being worked on by medics... How much more does the public need. This Soldier in the picture has volenteered to answer the call of his country,He is made aware of the risks and consquences of the job he is being asked to do...and yet he still serves, he pays the ultimate price while carrying out his duty...all they ask in return is his country's respect, and to be properly buried....Not to become someone else's cause.... We don't do this for any other job, such as policemen or fire fighters, who are asked to risk thier lives carrying out thier duties...we don't show medical pictures of shot policemen or badly burned fire fighters because we want them to continue doing their jobs. it's not the same thing BS, every country needs an army, and it needs soldiers....it is a fact of our times....so why is it exceptable to show medical photos of a badly mangled soldier... Soldiers don't start Wars, they have no control over anything in war...Our goverments start wars, and decide when to end wars....lets show some respect to those that have died in the service of thier country whether or not you agree with the cause or not ...You want to use your freedom of rights to end the war by reasonable means give'er....But remember those that have paid the ultimate price have paid enough.... If you can't drive your piont home with out these type of photos then your case is pretty weak...

Shakeyhands: The American public are very aware that they are losing soldiers in this conflict, Those cas figures are published every night in most if not all media stations across North America....How is it that not showing a graphic picture is lying ....they've told the public of the deaths...they informed the family... What good does it do anyone to see those grapic pictures... The American people are not stupid, they don't need pictures to form an educated opinion on this conflict....These pictures do nothing but cause undo harm to the family and relatives of this soldier...and diminish moral of those serving now... Perhaps you would feel different if that was your wife,husband, brother,sister, or child...and someone sent those pictures to you...thier is a reason censorship works in this country and this is one reason why we have censorship...it is why we have a rating system in this country....and yes there are things that go beyond what anyone should have access to those graphic pictures of a soldier with half his head blown off are a case and piont.... Ya right again how is this lying....have you seen those photos ...can you honestly say that the public needs to see those graphic images to really let them know what can happen on a battle field .... would you show them to your kids...your wife...And why is the reason we don't do that with vehicle accidents to promote safe driving ,or drinking and driving ...Or airplane crashes to promote flight safety...to let the people know this is what happens to a human body when it falls from 40,000 ft...You need a reality check on this one ...and think of the harm or pain that could be cause by those pictures why do you think the insurgents put them on the net..... Did they release any pictures of those killed in Afgan by that american pilot with a 500 LB bomb...NO....was it not enough to know that we lost 4 good soldiers in a tragic mistake ...Now you say you want pictures....

Gosthacked: History books are full of pictures of the dead and dying, (they are not as graphic as the ones shown on this insurgent site).... and they do have a shock value, they do show the price of war. You need to change the chanel, the media does cover all that you mentioned, Those pictures are much to graphic to be shown period.... and if its shock value you want why do we not show pictures of horrific traffic accidents put them on prime time so the families can really get a good image on what there spouse, father, mother, kids, looked like when they died...maybe we will all stop driving saving our resouces, and all those that die in traffic accidents.. They to are available on the on the intra net,and those that are to graphic should also be banned...and censored for the same reason... And you can...handle real violence....those soldiers will be honored given a military funeral, and buried by thier families....that is all that should happen they have paid the ultimate price and should not be asked to be used to further your cause.... Are you American or Canadian? reason i ask is you use "Tell them (we) are doing all (we) can to help Iraq." We as Canadians have a past time of throwing rocks at glass houses (what are Canadains doing to help the people of Iraq)

Black dog: They are worth a thousand words, and they do have an impact on the moral of a entire nation, but out of respect for the dead they should be censored ,these men and women have served thier country and have paid the ultimate price, They did so voluntarily as chimera pionted out because they believed in that cause...What right do we as the living by using thier deaths thier sacrifice to step on thier believes... to further another cause that these soldiers don't support...The coffin issue is not as large as the other issue of showing American soldiers mangled bodies ....where is the pay out for doing that, where is the respect for that soldiers ultimate sacrifice for his country, the respect for his grieving family.... Was it there was footage from the Iraqi side, during the first Gulf war...the Iraqi's decided that they did not want thier people to witness thier defeat...during the 2 and Iraqi war they had a problem with finding journalists that were willing to risk everything and traval with the insurgents something about they like excuting them...that being said there was some reporting going on by the Arab side ...you actually have to change the channel or have sat TV... Thats exactly what I'm saying, Have you been in a war zone...To a small degree they have but war is a thousand times more graphic....and if you think by watching some TV and playing some video games will prepare you for war your seriously mistaken....Can you honestly say that you would be prepared to see that guy in those images die, render first aid, haul him back to the aid station....then get back in combat soaked in his blood... No, i don't ...do you think there is a need for the general public to be aware? and where do we draw the line...The battle field is full of wpns far more deadly than the assault rifle...do we show them the results of getting hit with a 25 mm cannon shell, 40 mm HE round , or perhaps a anti personal tank round. we could take vidio on what happens to the human body as a 70 ton tank runs over it... All to what... show the public what it is like on the battle field so that man will stand up and proclaim the end to violence against each other to end war... Have you read a history book, has there been a time without it...mid evil warfare was alot more gruesume than it is today, with the families cleaning up the battlefields in which thousands died did that make a difference....NO we just got better at killing .... NO, it does not in any form make a difference,as a soldier seeing to much death and violence turns off those feelings it makes you cold, unfeeling, it makes those involved better killers as they don't want to end up like those they've seen...and it takes along time to re generate those normal emotions expected by every day society....

Black dog: Below is from a palestinian site, It should be noted that Begin was acting independently from the formed Goverment of Israel it also disagrees with your numbers " of many many more were driven out" as it quotes 10,000 were driven out ( a few compared to the entire population)... although his acts were acts of terrorism, it goes to further the piont that both sides are guility of terrible things, was Arafat not a terrorist..... It also goes on to say that the Arab countries attack Israel in 1948 with the intention of wiping them out...and at the end of that conflict those areas that were left was annex by Jordanian and Egyptian administrations.which answers another one of your questions should the Palestinians be held responsiable for thier actions "yes" As palestinians were themselfs involved in those attacks over 5000 of them in formed palestinian units....again making them responsiable for thier actions.... When the United Nations (UN) General Assembly approved in 1947 a new partition plan, 749,000 Arabs and 9,250 Jews lived in the territory where the proposed Arab state would be set up, while 497,000 Arabs and 498,000 Jews lived in the part which was to become the Jewish state. To drive the Palestinians from their land, a detachment of the Jewish terrorist organization Irgun, commanded by former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, raided the village of Deir Yasin on the 9th of April 1948, killing 254 civilians. The wave of terror drove 10,000 Palestinians from their land. Israel unilaterally proclaimed itself an independent country on the 14th of May 1948. Armies from the neighboring Arab states attacked immediately, but failed to stop the consolidation of the newly-proclaimed Jewish State. The new Jewish state had, in fact, emerged from the 1949 war against the Arab armies with a land area larger than one proposed by the United Nations. More than half of the Palestinians had to abandon their homes and headed towards the West Bank and Gaza Strip, where they lived as refugees. The West bank had been annexed by the then Hashemite kingdom of Tran-Jordan , a territory which had been annexed by the Hashemite kingdom of Transjordan; the Gaza Strip was then under the Egyptian administration. To the United Nations and, consequently, in the eyes of the international law, the Palestinians were not a people but simply refugees, i.e. a “problem” to be solved, although the 780000 Palestinian refugees were a direct result of war and forcible displacement to accommodate Jewish immigrants from Europe and the Arab world. palestinian web page ( here it mentions that over half the population left in fear and panick because of the war...while the remaining stayed ) As a result of the war, 780,000 Palestinians became refugees. About half that number left in fear and panic while those remaining were compelled to make room for Jewish immigrants from both European and Arab countries. The refugees spread into neighboring countries where they have maintained their Palestinian identity plus the desire to return to their homeland. With the establishment of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in 1964, they had a governing authority. In 1967 during the war between Israel and the Arabs, Israel occupied the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and other previously Arab-controlled areas. Ghaza Strip and the West Bank have been returned to Palestinian control as has been provided for between the Israelis and the Palestinians following the Oslo Accords. And above they say those areas have been giving back to PA authority... If the PA has authority of those lands, why do they continue to launch attacks in Israel..... My Webpage What was the activity of the PLO from 1964 to the Six Day War in 1967? PLO Emblem Since Jordan controlled Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) including East Jerusalem, and Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip at the time the PLO was founded, the PLO was committed to the dissolution of Israel, mainly through the use of armed force. Their emblem includes a map -- Israel is part of their concept of Palestine. True to the Palestinian National Covenant, since its founding, the organization has sponsored innumerable guerrilla raids on Israeli civilian and military targets and has been responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians -- Israeli, Palestinian Arab, and citizens of every country where the PLO has resided. From early 1965 to the Six-Day War in June 1967, the PLO through Fatah pursued a consistent policy of border attacks, particularly along the Jordanian and Lebanese borders. Criticism of these activities by the Arab governments and by local public opinion persuaded Fatah leaders to adopt a new approach known as "the entanglement theory." This involved using sabotage to force Israel to adopt an offensive position, which in turn would force the Arabs to step up their military preparedness. This cycle of action-retaliation-reaction would lead to a gradual escalation of tension on the borders, and eventually to war. The Syrian military offensive against Israel, with Fatah’s help, among other things, did indeed trigger the Six Day War in 1967, but with disastrous consequences for the Arab armies and governments. The PLO managed to launch significant terrorist attacks against Israel throughout its existence, with a particularly horrific record in the 1970s and during the al-Aqsa intifada following the collapse of the Oslo peace process. Formed palestinian units indicate that the PA authority did take action against Israel and lost again....how many times does Israel have to defeat them in battle...how many times to they have to give those lands back before the PA decides it is not worth the risk.... Below are from a Israelis web site....so what part is true which portion I'm i to believe... What about Israeli atrocities against Arabs? Pro-Arab sources cite examples of Israeli massacres and other atrocities during the 1948 War of Independence. Some Israeli revisionist historians support the atrocity claims as part of their political agenda, but mainstream historians do not think the claims are credible. The crux of the issue is whether the Jewish forces acted in a manner which goes beyond the normal course of warfare or if, on the contrary, any casualties were either opposing Arab armed forces or civilians who were accidently killed due to battle. The weight of evidence from eyewitnesses and sparse documentation is that: The Jewish population came under attack from Palestinian Arabs in the latter days of the British Mandate and, after independence was declared, from the armies of Arab nations. The heavily outnumbered and under-supplied Jews fought both conventional and unconventional battles against their foes, but did not engage in atrocities, massacres, or other improper acts. Arab casualties that did occur were either Arab armed forces in battle, or civilians caught in battle areas. Since Arabs often attacked from civilian areas, most of these casualties were the result of such Arab attacks. The most often mentioned location is Dir Yassin, one of the bases of the Arab forces maintaining pressure on the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv road. For the full story on this battle, see the Dir Yassin page. Other atrocities attributed to Jewish forces in the War of Independence timeframe include this list and more: Yehida: 13 December 1947 Khisas: 18 December 1947 Qazaza: 19 December 1947 Al-Sheikh Village: 1 January 1948 Naser Al-Din: 13-14 April 1948 Abu Shusha: 14 May 1948 Beit Daras: 21 May 1948 Tantura: May 22-23, 1948 Dahmash Mosque: 11 July 1948 Dawayma: 29 October 1948 Certainly claims of massacres and atrocities should not go without investigation. The problem is that, like the case of Dir Yassin, even when the claim is shown to be unfounded, the legend persists. It is convenient for the enemies of Israel to portray her armed forces as ruthless savages, but that propagandistic position cannot be supported by any facts. For example, Tantura. A Haifa University revisionist historian, Theodor Katz, claimed in his M.A. thesis (released January 2000) that an IDF unit had massacred over 200 Arab residents of the village of Tantura in the 1948 War of Independence. He was brought to court in 2001 by surviving officers and men of the unit who presented contrary evidence including review of Katz's tape recordings showing how he had manipulated the testimony of survivors. Katz admitted finally that he had selectively used reports from Arab sources, taking only those that supported his thesis. The lawsuit was dropped after Katz signed a renunciation of his own work and Haifa University pulled the thesis from library shelves. [it was revealed in September 2002 that tormer Palestinian Authority minister Feisal Husseini paid $8,000 for the legal defense of Teddy Katz.] The University conducted its own review of the evidence. After six months of work, the committee had managed to review only a little more than one-fourth of Katz's tapes, mostly in Arabic, which bore direct relation to the question of whether any massacre took place. Yet even in that limited selection, 14 major discrepancies - in which the tapes didn't accord with the written text - came to light. No pro-Palestinian Arab source had ever pointed to a massacre at Tantura before Katz's thesis appeared in 2000. The thesis has been completely debunked. Nonetheless, there are now hundreds of web sites that cite the "Tantura massacre" as historical fact. And while Arab sources rushed into print to trumpet the news of Katz's thesis, none has mentioned the retraction save a few who cite it as an example of a massive coverup My Webpage What about Arab atrocities against Jews? Rosh Zurim Settlement, Gush Etzion Violence by Arabs against the Jewish civilian population of Palestine was a periodic reality. During the Mandate period, whenever Arab dissatisfaction reached a peak, or when anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic Arab leaders needed to provoke the British authorities, rioting and Jewish casualties were created. Major rioting flared in Palestine during 1920-21, in 1929, and during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. This was not so different from the experience of Jews all over Europe and was part of the motivation for creating a Jewish state where Jews could control their own security. The day after the UN partition resolution of November 29, 1947, violence against Jewish civilians began to escalate. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. By the end of the second week, 93 Arabs, 84 Jews and 7 Englishmen had been killed and scores injured. From November 30, 1947 to February 1, 1948 427 Arabs, 381 Jews and 46 British were killed and 1,035 Arabs, 725 Jews and 135 British were wounded. In March alone, 271 Jews and 257 Arabs died in Arab attacks and Jewish counter­attacks. These were not military operations, but terrorism against civilian targets intended to achieve political aims for the Arabs who were dissatisfied with the United Nations partition plan. In February 1948 there was a bombing on the 1st in Jerusalem against the Palestine Post building (later renamed the The Jerusalem Post) which killed six people and injured dozens. Then on February 22nd, three booby-trapped trucks positioned in Ben-Yehuda Street exploded, destroying four large buildings, killing 50 and injuring more than 100. On March 11, a car bomb exploded in the courtyard of the Jewish Agency building, killing 12 people, injuring 44, and causing extensive damage. Arab acts of hostility prior to statehood reached their peak in March. Arabs controlled all the inter-urban routes. The road to Jerusalem was blocked, settlements in the Galilee and the Negev were also cut off and daily attacks were perpetrated on convoys. In the four months after the UN resolution, some 850 Jews were killed throughout the country, most of them in Jerusalem or on the road to the city. On April 13, 1948, Arabs set mines in the road in the Sheik Jarrah area to block a convoy of 10 vehicles -- trucks, buses and ambulances -- carrying supplies, nurses, doctors, scientists, and patients to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus. In the attack, 78 were killed and their bodies mutilated. Dozens are wounded. British soldiers delayed intervention in the attack for 6 hours while the killing continued. The hospital was cut off from Israel until it was recovered after the Six Day War in June 1967. The largest Arab atrocity of the war was on May 13, 1948, the massacre of dozens of surrendering defenders, including some twenty women, at Kfar Etzion in the Etzion Bloc of settlements (Gush Etzion) just north of Hebron, in the territory allocated to the Arabs under the UN partition plan. The Etzion Bloc had already seen a massacre in January 1947 when a Haganah platoon of 35 soldiers sent to help them with medical supplies and ammunition was massacred by hundreds of Arab militants. Their stripped, mutilated bodies were found the next day by a British patrol. The final battle for Gush Etzion took place between May 12-14, 1948. Massive, heavily armed enemy forces overran the Jewish positions. A handful of exhausted defenders, equipped only with light arms and very little ammunition could not withstand the attacking forces. On Thursday, May 13th, Kfar Etzion fell, its defenders killed, most of them slaughtered by Arab rioters after the collapse of the defense. Gush Etzion was destroyed in the aftermath -- everything of value was removed, then the buildings were reduced to rubble. Hundreds of thousands of trees in the orchards -- individually planted by the Jewish farmers -- were uprooted Whats all this prove ? that both sides like to go out on long walks on the beach together holding hands, singing comb ba ya....i think not it proves that they where at war and will continue to be for years to come....there is deep seated hatrad and it will take generations of peace to get rid of that...Both sides need to get a firm cease fire in place...both sides need to agree on pull backs of settlements and portions of the wall that are on palestinian land...they also need to finsh the wall legally and seal thier border, close it to all palestinians....complete separation until both sides can live together....