Army Guy

Lets not forget about the Snow, GTA actually called in the army to shovel the stuff....the mere sight of a snow flake now sets them off..... Lets get back to reality here....The whole thing would be over in less than a night, and you'd here about it all on the drive to work the next morning....shit for most of Canada nothing would change....Maybe the stops signs in Quebec....or the way the cops asked you to get out of your car.... Less than 100,000 in the military....thats funny... 3 mil hunters....they only own 2 rifles so they can find one of them the next morning after boozing it up the night before....As Canadians very few hunt to feed themselfs....they hunt to get out of the house and awy from the wife with as much beer as they can carry.....and unless you give out a free 24 with every US soldier they bag your not going to get them out of the house....

Just curious in Islam are women owned by men, do they really have any freedoms ?

Max you got my vote.....

Thanks Borg, and your right i'm not looking for pity, just a fair shake and to explain it from a soldiers piont of veiw....... As for the Beer, never sat down with to many zommies, but there is a first for everything.... Peter as funny as this seems honor and professionalism is all we soldiers have at the end of the day....I know that and 5 bucks will get me a beer....but that being said it means much more to them if it is given by the very people we serve....

Can anyone honestly tell me this was entirely about prisoner abuse, and had nothing to do with getting media attention for a group or person....for those with an agenda this military investagation will mean squat, another means to drag this out in the media by crying foul letting the military investagate itself..... 3 detainees out of the hundrds that where taken....and only 3 had similar injuries.....and that was enough to launch an investagation....no i believe that was enough for the media to run with a trumped up story....because it sold copies....it's OK to shoot the little bastards, but don't bruise them....is the message we got....what message did you get ? That some soldiers where beating the shit of unarmed prisoners like Somolia, tell me that did not cross your mind..... Because that was on the minds of every soldier once we took prisoners, we took extra care not abuse them....ensured they where looked after according to or better than every law and convention we signed....

Then lets put it in the right context shall we, RCR just finsihed buring 11 of thier comrads, have well over 80 lying in hospital beds, some in critical condition...The remainder of the Bn returns to KAf from the op weeks later....only to have this incident smeared all over the media.... Now some Prof who has never even seen a battlefield, let alone know what it is like reads a few paper reports and decides we mistreated prisoners....Kind of like saying the 76 Canada Russia game was faked, Canada had cheated to get the win... what do you think moral did. I was there and i can tell you it was a slap in the face....we all felt let down by the Canadian public...it was a kick in the nuts, to those that had given so much, during that op.... So did the RCR's collaspe into a heap of jello....NO, did we manage to continue our mission yes, did we like being accused NO, it pissed us off, it brought moral down.... Soldiers moral is effected by many things including what civilians do, don't kid yourself....moral is a fragile thing when you add it to all the other emotions that a soldier goes thru in the run of a day...such as watching 11 of your comrads one after another get loaded onto a herc,.or walk into the hospital ward to see a buddy and see 80 plus soldiers lined up in beds it takes a toll...last thing you need is to turn the TV on and hear someone whinning that a serious of bruises may have been attributed to abuse...thats BS, all we wanted to do was reach out and choke the shit out of the prof....drag his ass down to the battlefield and show him a few of his darling prisoners....then show him a hospital ward full of wounded Canadian soldiers where bruises are the least of thier worries.... The whole thing gave the impression that we where not trusted, to carry out our jobs in a professional manner any more....so it di effect moral...In our jobs professionalism is everything to us....

Thats the problem, nobody had, the alligations were made from some old Military police reports, which like a medical examiners reports would record any and all marks that are not normal....it is from these reports that the prof made his alligations...once made they took a life of thier own, and soon there was presure place upon the government thru many different venues to have this investagated.... However what most fail to account for is that these injuries are from combat, and not some police station downtown where criminals have rights....In combat, our nations soldiers job, while blunt as it is ...is to close with and destroy the enemy....As long as we remain within the walls of our national laws, inter-national laws and the conventions Canada has signed, none of these alligations should see any light of day....and a wall of Canadians should have stood up and said so....and any thing less is extremily harmful to moral of those very soldiers we have tasked with this mission....And while i agree it should have been investagated, just not the way it was played out in Canada with polictical parties and media already judging those that we trust with the defence of our nation.... And while i truily don't believe that all Canadians are waiting in the wings for our forces to screw up, there was enough of them or so it seems to push this thru until it was a major national issue...which concerns alot of soldiers, and confuses alot of soldiers, has our trust, respect, with the public been eroded, as our very future depends on it...and vice versa.

It was a criticism, a huge criticism....I'd like to start out that as Smallc has pionted out we the soldiers of this nation are Human, and we do make mistakes, and it is the responsability of the people to ensure these mistakes are investagated, and brought to justice, .... That being said the time period in question is refing to OP Mudusa, one of the largest Canadian ground operations in the entire Afghan mission...one that produced our greatest losses, not only from the enemy but from freindly fire as well...And from a Canadian soldiers piont of view it was our finest and darkest hour...We had taken the fight to the enemy, and mauled him badly....we also suffered some huge set backs as well such as a US A-10 straffing one of our companies postions, and in seconds making 150 men combat ineffective, taking them out of the fight for the most part....Not only did we have cope with close combat with the enemy, but also the unknown status of so many of our close comrads and freinds that where in that straffed company.... During that battle it is thought we honoured our Nations flag, we honoured our regt's name, and we honoured the RCR soldiers that served before us on previous battlefields across the globe...and we did so despite our losses....Op Mudusa was a badge of honour for us that where there... That was until we found out that a Canadian law professor from ottawa began making unfounded accusations of prisoner abuse....Carried out by those very soldiers that took part in OP Mudusa....placing a black mark on our nations flag, our Regts name, and the names of every soldier that took part....for us it was a slap in the face.... This accusation was made not from eye witness reports but intially from paper Miltary Police reports describing bruising of prisoners in certian areas around the arms and legs.... We've all seen how police take down and restrain bad guys on TV, it's not pretty....and for the most part our take downs belong in some football greatest hits vidio....police take downs on steriods...but these are not your average Bad guys and it's not made for TV...these guys are religious fanitics who will fight you until they have nothing left... a small minor example a buddy of mine required 24 stitches after one insurgent left 3 of his teeth burried in his forearm, after he was biten....like i said nice guys....and yes the bad guy did get a few bruises that day...but once he open his mouth and released my buddies arm the bruising stopped... With no real proof this accusation took on a life of it's own....people in Canada jumped on the band wagon....they did not care about anything else....they had the rope out and where shouting for a linching.....and soon, our good names were mud....and the poor bad guys where the victims....Damn army guys went to far this time....brutes.... What i find ironic is this for the most part Canadians like thier soldiers, respect them and what they do....they trust us that we will lay our very lives down if need be to defend our nation or foriegn policy...they trust we will do that. because we are professional Canadian soldiers, some of the worlds best ...but just in the back of some of thier minds they are coiled to spring at the first sign of a wrong doing....never assuming we are smart enough to stay away from being unprofessional....but rather guilty bastards....before any evidence is heard....

Well Soldiers have been offically cleared of Prisoner abuse....I wonder just what all that cost the tax payer...and whats next Soldiers

Oleg i think your to soft, I've been on the recieving end of Omar's kind to many times...to show any mercy, flexiability, turn the other cheek crap....I rather have them all fear Canada and what we are capable or incapable of....than have thier respect

It's in our nations law, it's in the genvenva convention, and it's again'st inter national laws....And we are suppose to turn a blind eye to all that.... I doubt very much we could convict anyone, with the lack of evidence collected on the battle field....No CSI team roaming around looking for convictions in a war zone....So either the laws need to be changed or amended, to account for that...or we stop bringing these people in front of civilian courts of law....or stop taking Prisoners.... Sure it is until he moves next door to you....

I know i don't always see eye to eye with SmallC but he may be on to something here, and after doing alittle research on the topic i don't see how, the C-27J beat out a C-115 redesigned aircraft. Perhaps there are other missions that the Buf's accomplish or new missions which will suit the C-27J better....but as a sar aircraft maybe we should be looking at a home grown version. Viking I can see how the C-27 beats out the C-295 but i'm lost at how it beats out the redesigned Buf Comparison

No your right one should never take for granted someones experiances, however ever historical fact was once started out as someones experiences or accusations. That being said the UN historical facts work again'st it here. There have not been that many sucessful UN military peace keeping mission, or for that matter other UN missions be it humanitarian, peace keeping, diplomatic, etc etc....Given the fact that it really does not have the means to enforce anything.... It has plenty of recorded facts about coruption, enabilities to get the job done, corporate failings etc etc ...

Unfortunitly you can not separate the two, when your talking about setting up a military to defend your nation, as offensive operations go hand in hand with defensive ones.... You can however separate the two when it comes down to the governments decision to send it's troops away.... But both require the same type of equipment.

Yes the militaries budget has gone up, but what you failed to mention is how long have they run in the red, what has the military cut in order to just operate....and how much of those lost or cut abilities have been replaced now with this new money.... Yes alot of funding goes into personnel, it was not all that long ago, my local garbage man was making more picking up my trash, than i was in a combat operation recieving danger bonues... and you'll have to admit having our nations soldiers collecting welfare and going to food banks was kind of shameful.... And that has since been corrected, and i'm sure there is not many soldiers today that could complain about any of our pay rates.....

I'm not pionting fingers smallc, trust me every government since i've joined has not done our defence dept any large favours, they all promised lots but none have produced much.... And your right the money has to come from somewhere, but here is the catch it's crunch time, and major decissions need to be made, either fix it or decide what portions of defence or elements we could do with out....

Here is an interesting report although it is somewhat old it is still used as a ref document as it has not been redone or revisted since 2005. Here is what some of the generals from all 3 elements had to say about the military's condition and state in 2005. Yes some things have improved somewhat, but those areas that where a problem in 2005 are still problems today... Army: What compounds these challenges is the persistent factors plaguing the army caused by chronic under-manning, under-equipping and under-funding. They are: lack of trained personnel; high personnel tempo; outdated equipment; ineffective recruiting; inadequate training capacity; decaying infrastructure; and a reserve structure that can’t be counted on in the crunch. COMMITTEE’S TRANSLATION: The Army is facing a triple whammy. We are too underfunded to correct the weaknesses caused by past underfunding, we are too underfunded to meet our current responsibilities, and we are too underfunded to prepare for the massive changes you want that will allow us to serve Canadians in the future. COMMITTEE’S TRANSLATION: You expect your army to defend Canadians from current threats at home and abroad, while transforming itself into an institution capable of succeeding in theatres of modern warfare in the future, but you are not providing us with the money and resources we need to do that.We simply can’t do what you say you want us to do with the money you’re giving us. A 20 per cent “missing” rate essentially means that this institution – already drastically short of the personnel it needs to fulfill its many mandates – is only running on three good wheels. Lack of Qualified Technicians and Spare Parts NAVY: Three inter-twined deficiencies increase the difficulty of the challenges faced by the Navy. The Navy is short of: 1. Trained personnel to crew the fleet; 2. The funds necessary to supply its fleet with all the parts it needs; 3. The capacity – either its own or in industry – to maintain its fleet in accordance with its maintenance policy The funds necessary to supply its fleet properly or do all the repairs that should be done to ships and infrastructure. Committees Translation: Were falling apart and we think that Canadians will start to notice when the ships start to sink... Our Overtasked Navy COMMITTEE’S TRANSLATION: “We cannot do our job.” COMMITTEE’S TRANSLATION: “Instead of instituting a rational process of purchasing and repairing according to what we anticipate we will need to do our job, we are forced to keep patching our equipment after things go wrong. That’s not only a stupid way to maintain capital equipment, it endangers sailors’ lives.” Airforce: Old aircraft. A shortage of pilots. A shortage of trained technicians. A lack of airlift to move personnel and equipment quickly in emergencies. Fast track replacement programs switched to the slow track. Helicopters older than the parents of the pilots who fly them. COMMITTEE’S TRANSLATION: “We’re barely keeping up appearances here.” Largest Underfunding of Any Environment The Air Force’s Impact Statement for fiscal year 2005-2006 shows that it is being underfunded by $608 million this year alone, which simply adds an exclamation mark to more than a decade of underfunding.[79] The report is filled with ref's and many other sites all commenting on the state of our military....all i ask is you read it ...it paints a totally different picture than what the media has painted and it's not even close to what our governments have put together....now or in the past... 2005 report Government 2009 report goverment

Until the 20 or more years of decay is repaired , but i'm only guessing.... And while we have been increasing the budget, it is just now coming into the black....allowing DND to do more small internal purchases but do you think that all this in house bickering would be going on between the elements if they had enough resourses to do the jobs we've asked them to do...

Yes they have over 20 years ago the military informed the government that these helo's needed replacing....you don't get a restart because you cancel a contract...the fact remains they needed replacing some 20 years ago....you can't will that away, as you say... As far as willing them faster....thats bullshit....Money makes the world go round....if it had not been for the odd specs we ordered those helos would have been in service years ago... It has everything to do with spares a tail hub is a spare part, each piece of equipment is assisgned x amount of dollars it can spend every year on parts...no more funding no more parts no more hubs helos don't fly..... Not helos that where spec purchased for that very mission SAR....yes there are utility helos that could be made available, which detract from the reason they are used within the airforce ....in fact our entire aircraft fleet could be used in a SAR role if required....does not address this problem....Shitty helo, no parts, no solution....except perhaps a new helo type and new mixed fixed wing componet. JSS is a naval myth that will never come off the design tables....a project like this happens when the army sticks it's nose in Naval bussiness....all the Navy wants is a AOR....it's not good bussiness sticking a 1000 men on a ship full of jet fuel....and why we are doing it is deyond me... We should have slowly been replacing these capabilities over the last 20 years....instead we are here today, with everything needing to be replaced yesterday....and while it is easy to say there is no money left....or you can't have everything....you really need to be thinking about is what we as Canadians could live with out in regards to our defence until we can or do get the funding....

Thats was cretiens problem was it not ? the problem here is that our military is part of government, and it is our governments responsiability to maintain and effectively defend our country.....to effectively mange all the governmentental profiles and depts....not just the ones that contain votes....

I don't think it is a matter of "if there is money to be had" we've put that off for far to long, and i'm sure that if it is a capablity we could live without it would have already been indentified....I think it will be more of dig deeper, or cut something else.... To be fair, those replacements have been coming for over 20 years now. In that time requirements change, numbers required change, so does our defensive needs.... As for the other breaking, your right for the some of the part, the helo is crap....however if the funding was there so would the spare parts to keep them flying....along with everything else in the forces there is just not enough cash to purchase spares in qty's needed to keep everything running all of the time...

I've always knew that the airforce is one of the poorer cousins when it comes to budget allocation....but this is interesting. Airforce. Drones Army also has it's concerns in ref to more of those tax dollars. Army

Do make this shit up as you go.....If the terrorist had the intelignece to separate fact from fiction in regards to there religion then perhaps we would not have them going into Macdonalds or the local market and blowing themselfs up ...did i mention randomly........all in hopes of getting a few used virgins....i mean they must have run out by now or is there a huge virgin tree out back....come on binney give us the low down....is there really a virgin tree....or some one with a wand "POOF" your a virgin again""' because if us christians got ahold of that we be set for life....virgins running around every where ...muslims running around with nothing to look forward to...shit we'd rule the universe.....we could bring our soldiers back the war for everything would be over....

And in those 80 pages you've yet to make a case for why Omar should be treated above and beyond any other Canadian child....that has committed a serious crime....Because he is a child soldier and gets a free pass....because he was tortured, because he was abused as a child....which ?

Let me ask you this did you think being involved in Yugo had anything to do with preserving our security..... And while our current mission does make referecnce to our nations security i think the main reason we are over there is Canadians good will, assisting another nation in need....not for Oil, or resources....just assistance....