Army Guy

I think thats the problem nobody cares who started what, it's been generations now....and both sides have no idea why we dislike each other....just that we do.....does it really matter to know who started it....we both wake up scratch our balls, spit on the floor, and wipe our ass with our favorite middle eastern dictactor toilet paper.....look out the window and snarl "wonder what those damn middle easterners are up to today".... But for years it had been contained to one side shooting down a jet, the other side blowing up this or that....ya we disliked each other .....but 911 and OB brought all that into our front rooms....they attacked on our soil....WTF was he thinking ""bring the war to America he said"""....i guess he was counting on the US not doing anything.....Surprise, surprise ,surprise.....my five year old could of told him that was a bad move.....and then they act like they were surprised at the amount of NATO forces pouring in to Afghan....OBL gave them the keys to the door all the US did was kick it down....and now some of us are wondering maybe we started this whole thing....""""WHO CARES"""

Not having the edvidence for trial and being innocent are two very different things....72 out of the 500 already have re arrest warrents out for them, for being involved once again with terrorists or commiting terroist activities........ I can't speak for all prisoners, but the ones we handed over were normally taken off the battle field....where seconds ago they where trading shots and gun fire with us....Most NATO nations operated the same way we did....so lets drop the innocent crap....

I don't think you get the gist of the post "who cares"...... what radical muslims did do is bring it into our living rooms ....and awoke the bull, and now they are going to get both horns....

Perhaps that would work if the punishment fit the crime, but it is not, very few of these War Lords see the court house, so for them to actually take that into consideration is questionable... I do think that each child's case should be dealt individually, and not covered by a blanket policy, or law....as most of these crimes they have commited are very serious, from murder to rape, to recruiting other kids into the cycle....not all of them are as inocent as we would like them to be...

I've looked at the picture plus the many more that were taken by US forces, most as they were working on saving young mr Khadr, I've aslo seen first hand poeple shot dozens of times, so although i may not be a forensics expert but i have been trained to tell the difference on a exit and entrance wound.....So to answer your question no i'm not winging it.... Have you seen anyone shot by a 5.56 mm round, this is not the movies, if he was shot in the back he would have been thrown to the ground face first...lets not forget he was shot multiple times....the odds of him landing on his back as you suggest is very unlikely....So if he was covered in rubble as one statement suggests he would have been laying face down....and yet he was not...Thats a problem..... Later you claim the wounds are covered in dust....well once again read your statements, tthe part about firing a few rounds down the lane way, the soldier sight is obscured by the amount of dust raised by firing his wpn...this dust affectionately known as Poo dust , is like talcum powdered, about 6 in thick in most places, just walking in the stuff can raise or reduce visability, and it gets on or coats everything it touches....moving Omar to a safe area to medically work on him would have been enough to coat the wounds....that and the fact that when performing first aid, one does have to check and treat both wounds exit and entrance which could involve rolling him over...into guess what the Poo dust..... Just to make things clear making a false written statement carries the same punishment as making one under oath,sitting in front of the court....The picture explains nothing except clearly showing he was shot in the back.... Plus the fact that only one soldier out of the 4 that where there or seen the entire thing has changed thier statement....the other 3 have not....my question to you is why is this one statement true and the others false....what fact or piece of evidence changed your mind.... Thats exactly what is going to happen if he is brought to Canada and put on trial here. we all know that key evidence has been ruled out , as torture was involved ....he'll be found inocent and set free to roam your neiborhood....back with his family who loves thier new country, well everything except our way of life, did i mention us as well....I'm sure a young man with a bone to pick with not only the US but Canadians as well, will make an ideal next door neibor.... And if we are right, and he is set free to carry out his mytradom on some high value target.....i just hope it's not my neiborhood. And i will add this ....your Apology will mean squat to those lives omar takes ....

Thanks peter...sorry guys...

Monkeyman you got something to say....just say it....This is not about Iraq, not about being being racist, not about religion ...it's about being a terrorist....and you could be white, brown, black, purple with warts on your dick....i don't give a sweat F***, your going to get the same treatment.... You've clearly stated serveral times that most Muslims are again'st violence and terrorism....so lets clear the air right now are you one of those muslims....are you again'st violence and terrorism.....if so then great we are on the same page....if not then you got a problem....thats where the line in the sand is....pick a side .....

Your mish mashing serveral statements to support your argument.....and perhaps confusing your self in the process The other man shot in the skull was found only feet away form omar...which according to you he Omar ,was cover in rubble, or as the statement you provided said the top floor of the complex ...anyways alot of rubble....One would assume that the other man would be covered in rubble as well...because he is only a few feet away....but he's not...the defense is saying that this man Could have thrown the grenade....Omar could not have because he was covered in rubble....Can we have it both ways.... The photo shows Omar laying on his back with gapping wounds in his chest >>>those are exit wounds, meaning he was shot in the back.....entrance wounds are small and clean, exit wounds are alot larger and messy as the bullet passes thru flesh it expands, or fragments as it hit bone causeing a much larger hole upon exiting....... All this photo proves is he was shot in the back....kind of hard to do when your laying on your back buried in rubble....

Tango's and a few others here, believe that child soldiers are not responsable for "any " of thier crimes including murder....it a free ticket to ride.... Lucky for us terrorist acts are not covered in the GC, or Canadian law...

Here is a good read about some of our media and how they discrib events in Afghan.... post

All muslim countries are not again'st terrorism, in fact some out right support it, now and in the past, while other tolerate it....so your blanket statement holds no water....i will however agree that there is alot of muslims that do not advocate the use of violence....perhaps even a majority.... Thats not the answer i was looking for, both cultures are totally different with entirely different sets of morals and values....but one must admit thier laws are very strict, and not very forgiving....and while ever changing and improving in western eyes....it is in my opinion that once found guilty of a serious offence there would not be very much compassion for his release....medical or age wise anyways.... As for Ali yes he was great at knocking the shit out people, and everyone loved him for it....but thats another topic....

I don't believe this is a matter of race or color, or religion....as far as i know Argus is a great supporter of this mission and what our military is trying to accomplish.....that is to help the people of Afghanistan (mostly a muslim country)recover from muslim extremists and thier brutal reign over them....I think the world would be better off without any terrorist or extremists....cristian or muslim or for that matter any race, color, or religion.....would you not agree...

Your right Tango case dismissed, one statement over rules all others.....but now we have some other problems....like who threw the grenade....the other only possible terrorist alive in the compound was found only feet away from Omar....was he buried under the same rubble...how could have he possiably thrown anything....so now we have the case of the magical bouncing grenade.....was there even a grenade....who knows now.... one more question how did omar recieve the gunshot wounds to his back if he was buried in rubble....and whom did the other two soldiers see on his knees... and who did they shoot on thier knees and thru the head........remember 2 soldiers claimed they see someone on his knees.....and since there was only 4 men , one was killed, another was performing medical aid to speers the medic .....that claimed they seen Omar, or someone in omars postion someone has to be lying..... or we are missing 2 bodies....

Yes your right it takes Canadian law to remove Canadian citizenship, Law that our government has put in place, a government that we the citizens have voted in.... And yes during that incident the government did do it's duty, regardless of those that held Canadian citizenship as a convince, for what ever reasons....what i was suggesting is that there should be some form of rules or laws in place that govern citizenship.... I'm not an expert on this subject, but rules that could negate citizenship of convinence, rules that are expanded to include acts of terrorism, perhaps even a tougher immigration process put in place, one that is funded and manned with suffiecient people to full investage all claims. Thats not what i was suggesting , but rather revamping the process to eleminate those that just want to hold a Canadian passport and citizneship for all the extras that they bring.... Here is where my opinion becomes a little jaded....I have comrads that have been crippled or died in this war on terror fighting the declared enemies of Canada....yes they all recieve top notch medical care, on our tax payers dollars, and they will also collect the same finicial assistance because they are no longer able to work, or buried....but where i draw the line is this, the entire Khadr family has in some way shape or form assisted those very same declared enemies we have been fighting, they have already made it very clear they hate what we stand for, our morals and values, we already know what thier moral value systems and beliefs are we see it displayed in the media everyday in Afghanistan...infact the very thing the love about us is our weakness to make the tough chioces...that we are always bound by some sort of rules....that will always work in thier favour... Now we are saying we will have to turn the other cheek, suck it up... because someone declared that Hey they are Canadian citizens....entitled to our forgiveness....i include our forgiveness because we already know that young mr Khadr once returned to Canada will be set free, one can not try anyone that has commited a crime on the battlefield and make it stick in a civilian court of law......entitled to our Generosity....and all that goes with that including medical, ,mental, dental, health care, welfare, etc etc etc....and perhaps a large money winfall because we as a nation could not prove any of his misdeeds, which would lead into perhaps a suit again'st our nation for failing to act soon enough,.....entitled to everything that Canadian citizenship holds and means.... So yes it pisses me off somewhat that he may recieve more, than say a Canadian soldier that had his legs blown off by an IED ....planted thier by Khadrs borther in arms..... It pisses me of that the Khadrs will not be the last, once this precident is set..... .Our current courts of laws are not set up to bring about justice right out of the battle space....that being said how is justice served....we know he is a terrorist, and has carried out terrorist activities be it from from what little evidence collected at the scene, his own admission, etc etc but because he was tortured, most of it unuseable....so we let him walk....and for most of Canadians we will have to wait until his next act to punish him or see justice served....i just hope it's not me that gets blown up by one of his future IED's ...or worse... That has got to say something about our justice system....here in Canada he walks....yet our nations military has ROE's that could have taken his life in Afghan no questions asked, no trails, no mercy, not a peep out of anyone here in Canada.....just one dead 15 year old Canadian fighting for the wrong side ....might have made the middle section of the paper.... And part of defending those values is ensuring someone is not pissing all over them....and if that means sending a terrorist back to the country of his crimes to face justice there so be it.....

Fact remains he was found guilty, sloppy or not, I'm sure Scotlands justice systems mirrors most western countries, and a guilty verdict has to be proven with out a shadow of doubt..... No, i'm the kind of guy that does some research before blowing things out of his ass.... If that is the limit of your knowledge of the gulf war 1 or 2 then i can see how you've come to that conclusion....but if you look at all the info" available on the web on all the resons that the US and coalition invaded Iraq and you'll see it's not as simple as a few photo's.... That being said you never answered my question do you think he would have been found guilty in a muslim court of law,, you pick the country....and do you think they would have released him because of health reasons.... As for the anecdote, i think most average muslim countries are for anything bad that happens to the west....be it disasters, terrorism, etc etc....so it is not just a western ideal, it is shared by both sides....

He was found guilty in a western court of law....do you think that the verdict would be different in a muslim court??? i've seen muslim justice in serveral countries , lets just say i don't think he'd be released for his medical conditions... It's kind of hard not to find fault with it, i mean they where cheering for a convicted terrorist, which killed over 200 people....maybe it is just a ugly western value but we don't cheer for mass murders..... but then again i guess all those cheering after 9-11 did'nt support terrorism either.....

You must admit that alot of "citizens" of Canada carry citizenship for convenice only, prime example was the recent up heaval in lebanon, where over 5000 Candain citizens needed to be evac, on our dime....yet in media interviews alot had admitted not to have been to Canada in over 10 years or more....that evac was payed for on our dime...tax payers of Canada, something these people had not done for quit some time....payed taxes....not that paying taxes makes you a citizen, but those that are contributing to this country, and are citizens and paying taxes, should have a say in how it is run.... The same reason the Khadr family returned to Canada, Afghan medical system sucks frankly, and while Omars brother was indeed born in toronto he had spent less than 2 years in country....this is the same brother wounded, and put into a wheel chair, during a fire fight that killed his father, ....Nobody will determine or can prove that this young boy did or did not take part in this fire fight....but he was granted full access to our countries medical system, once again on our dime...What other reasons could the Khadr family have by returning to Canada....it's not because they love Canada, infact they have already stated in the media they loath our values and way of life... So one could assume that it is a citenship of convinence....done for the sake of thier son...wounded in the war on terror.... There should be some set of rules which govern our citenship, more than exist today, written by Canadian for Canadians, to protect what for some of us hold near and dear....I don't the problem with the fact that if a state wants or has the ability to grant citienship it should also have rules governing that citenship, plus have the right to revoke it as they see fit...be that in our courts or in parliment....citenship is not a right...but a privilage... there needs to be a line in the sand now, Omar is not the only Canadian fighting on the wrong side in the war on terror and there will be more cases....

Tango, you sound pissed .....it is not my intention to insult you, if you took it that way i apoligize, it is my intention to make the facts clear, as they are still very clouded to some....and with an issue as important as this it needs to be very clear.... Below is taken from the witness report from the soldier known as OC-1....I think once you read this i think it will become clear that you are confusing some of the facts....as to whom was in the rubble, and where Omar was found.... OC-1 witness report - took a low position at the southeast corner of the alley. This was the first time - stopped moving since the initiating (sic) the approach to the compound. He saw a man lying underneath some rubble and debris (he presumed resulting from the air strikes) that he believed was clearly dead. He heard moaning coming from the back of the compound. The dust rose up from the ground and began to clear, he then saw a man facing him lying on his right side. - identified this man as the man photographed in Attachment 7). The man had an AK 47 on the ground beside him and the man was moving. - fired one round striking the man in the head and the movement ceased. Dust was again stirred by this rifle shot. When the dust rose, he saw a second man sitting up facing away from him leaning against brush. This man later identified as KHADR, was moving. (- identified this man as the man photographed in Attachment 8.) ] - fired two rounds both of which struck KHADR in the back. - estimated that from the initiation of the approach to the compound to shooting KHADR took no more than 90 seconds, with all of the events inside the compound happening in less than a minute. - moved into the alley and noted that the man under the rubble was in fact dead and there was a second man dead under the rubble next to him (see Attachment 9 for details of the alley. Attachments 10 and 11 are photos identified as the two bodies under the rubble). A damaged AK 47 (appeared to be damaged by air strikes) was on the ground next to them - said that the nature of the injuries, which included burned, the dust and debris on top of the bodies, and the general state of these two bodies caused him to believe they were dead prior to his entry into the compound. -moved to the back of the compound and checked the first man he shot. The man was decased and in addition to the wound to his head, he had two gunshot wound two his chest. - believed that these chest wounds were inflicted by the 12 rounds he fired down the alley when he crossed the alley's entranceway. - noted this man was armed with a pistol in a holster in addition to the AK 47 by his side. - observed a small weapon (a pistol or grenade, - could not recall which) on the ground near KHADR. - then tapped KHADR's eye to see if he was alive. KHADR reacted and was placed on his back. - then turned him over to be secured by other personnel who had now entered the alley. - noted an additional AK 47 in the alley and several grenades. (The location of the grenades are marked "G", the pistol is marked "P" and AK 47s are marked "AK" by - on Attachment 9). This is not true, below was taken from wiki, but is also mentioned in several other statements....Omar was asking soldiers to Kill him, in english which surprised soldiers ....it was spec ops guys that prevented other soldiers from carring out Omar wishes....It was not until later did they find out that he was Canadian, his age, or is relation in the Al Quadia family.... wiki Lets put some things into context shall we, Most Afghanis know during this period of time that NATO is involved in combat operations ...Combat operations again'st specfic targets or groups....a line in the sand was clearly drawn... He would not need to defend himself if he was not involved with the Taliban or other terrorist organizations.... When the Afghanis soldiers walked towards the house , to announce thier intentions of searching it...they were gunned down....by omars buddies ....they knew that they did not want NATO to find anything they had hidden, or what the house was being used for....to build bombs...they also did not want to surrender.... The just defending yourself excuse does not wash..... HE was'nt under any rubble.... And one interrogator out of the dozens that interviewed him state this the rest say he is guilty of something.... Some of the charges he was charged with on his 2 and trail..... He was charged with Murder in Violation of the Law of War, Attempted Murder in Violation of the Law of War, Conspiracy, Providing Material Support for Terrorism and Spying That being said if brought back into Canada to face trail what would we charge him with...it has already been decided that most of the evidence could not be used as it was obtained thru torture....so what does that leave us with.... Does that mean we will never know....because our justice system is not set up to handle these type of cases.... wiki

There are 2 soldiers statements, one from a soldier who was advancing with the US medic that was killed himself was wounded in the eye read his statement he claims Omar was not buried in any ruble, but sitting up with his back turned towards them....he was later evaced, and did not see the rest of the battle outcome... the second statement comes from the soldier on the flank that put 2 rounds into omar back, as he was in a sitting postion with his back turned towards the shooter....he is the only one to have seen Omar imediately after the fire fight was over, as he checked Omar to see if he was alive or not........he also confirmed that there was a body not far from Omars shot in the skull.... So my question is this how could young mr Khadr been shot twice in the back if he was buried in ruble as you claim. as Omar was the only one left alive on the battle field, who else could have thrown the grenade....the million dollar question? All this proves is that it is made in the US and like i said everyone has access to such wpns, including Taliban and other terrorists.... So you are concluding that the rest of those people that spoke to Omar are not very good at there jobs....that is what you are impling that we should forget about the other statements as this is the only one that is to be believed.... My intention is not to vilify anyone or make defamatory remarks towards you just someone need sto set the facts right...i have provided you in the past with all the links to these very same remarks you've made.....and yet you presist on carring on the wrong path...

I just want to clarify something here, to be declared a terrorist means that individual has carried out some form of terrorist activity, once you've done that then yes you are a terrorist for life, and are accountable for that, regardless of age....just as a criminal is responable for his crimes here in Canada...only there is no time limitations... And yes there has been cases of terrorists being taken down with deadly force without warning....IE while eating breakfast, etc etc ....good examples of this are high pri targets taken out via sniper actions , or UAV missle attacks noramlly reserved for high pri targets.. but it has happened, but normally reserved to high pri targets such as high profile leaders, or high profile members of some terrorist group... That being said a normal action is for NATO to try and make an arrest, similar to a Swat operation you've seen on TV only we have bigger guns and more of us....and we don't sit around and try to talk you out peacefully....we arrive, we enter , we take them down hopeful alive and leave....

Tango; Your misleading not only the posters on this board but the truth as well. repeation does not mean BS becomes truth defense team has one statement from one soldier that believes Omar did not throw that grenade....the have plenty that have stated they seen nothing, and more than one statement that states Omar must have thrown the grenade....nobody else was alive.... ....it proves shit.....You can have 10 people watch a train wreck and each statement will be different. How does Forensics prove it is US issue ? was a serial number recovered off the piece that kill the US medic....no what forensics have proven it this grenade was manufactured in the US, and is in use by dozens of militaries around the globe....and also available on the black market... As for the interrogator, one of how many that questioned mr Omar, over his course of detention.....one out of dozens, including our own CSIS...whats the odds that this one guy, is the only interrogator capable of doing his job....capable of getting at the truth while the other dozens have not a clue on proper interrogation techs...or are totally useless at thier jobs....

Your right in a perfect world we should be defending everyones rights, but life is not always like that, and our history is full of examples of Canada doing just that defending the rights of Canadians we chose to .... Argus provides a few names of Canadians that perhaps are more deserving of our time and resources but are pushed to the side lines forgotten....Mr Khadr is still in the news....hence why all the hoopla....hence why everyones britches are in a bunch...or people are scrambling to get in the lime light, get thier piece of the pie....

Just so we can clear this up once and for all , why don't you provide a quote or citation that states that SOME meaning more than one us Soldier whom was present at the fire fight that seen Omar capture.....believes he was inocent of the murder charges now filed again'st him.... And while here in Canada the Age 15 is considered a child, not so in Afghan he was considered an adult....free to do or go as he wished....And while you continue to paint this young man as a hopeless and misguided child....your mistaken...He has made a chioce to take up arms again'st NATO troops, lets not forget that our own nations troops are part of that coalition...and where on the ground fighting with US forces during this period of time.....

Argus well said....

I like a quote on this because there are provisions within Canadian and inter national law that "DO" allow a nation to strip one of it's citizens of it's citizanship.... I call Bullshit on this one as well, one US soldier wrote a statement, one out of the almost 20 that where there....that does not make a decisive turning piont in this case.... As for the grenade US type ordance is common in this area of the world, and for the right money i'm sure one could but almost anything....It does not prove friendly fire.... How many times are we going to cover this same ground.....Terrorism is not covered under the child soldiers covenant...not now not yesterday and not anytime in the near future....Check under the UN , inter national , and Canadain laws they have not been amended to include children under 17 years of age....Mr Khadr is shit out of luck hence why he has not been declared a "Child Soldier" by the defense team....or do the posters here know something his defence team does not..... Mr Harper is in charge of running the country, last time i checked anyways....not the courts.....So until that changes it's the courts and Canadian people that will have to suck it up.... Once again one statement does not mean he did not do it, besides how do we explain other charges that could be laid....acts of terrorism, perhaps treason, plus others.... No it clearly shows that our justice system is not set up to put these scumbags on trail....what you forget to mention is that out of those 525 released some 75 have been gone back and are involved in terrorist activities....those are the ones that we know of ...Mr Khadr is the clearest case your going to get...in a war zone....until someone invents a new way to put these guys on trail or gather evidence in a war zone....these guys are going to be let free to roam our streets....i know it gives me a warm and fuzzy.... ny paper.