Army Guy

in 2010 the federal goverment spent 7.5 Bil with INAC eapenditures with another 980 mil promised for other projects another tidbit, over 50 chiefs are paid more than PM,160 paid more than Premiers, while 634 made over 100 k per year.tax free.one chief in the maritimes made over 1 mil , he has almost 400 on his reserve. First Nation's communities administer more than 80% of the Indian Affairs Program’s annual budget. Total population in 2006 was 1,176,000 SO in compared to what, lts say homeless people in 2005 was 3.2 mil federal portion of budget was 1.4 Bil in affordable housing. There is plenty more I think the money is being mismanged...

ust so i understand , for the most part we are talking about rescues at sea, on ships that landing the helo is not an option. And yet the SAR cummunity has a history of pulling off some pretty hairy rescues regardless. And i get it the fact that once a spin starts it can or could be violent, but considering the other options, satying on board a sinking ves, i think most would rather have the shit spun out of them rather than stay on board... Being a grunt i have not had the pleasure of a hoist, i've fast rope and repelled dozens of times and have never had any problems with down wash or spin...so i'm assuming it is just with the trip back onto the helo... If it was simple then everyone would be doing it...i guess that is why you guys get all that fancy airforce pay...but i thought the larger the helo the more range and time you have over target, the smaller the aircraft the less down wash you experience...which one really holds the most benifits,or wieght when picking a SAR aircraft...perhaps what we need is 2 or 3 different aircraft sort of mission specific... As derek mentioned white out and brown out in Afghanistan are pretty common, most landings are brown outs, where pilot and FE can not see anything there are no references and in some cases pretty violent....Not sure how the pilots mange to put us on the ground whether its just pray and keep lowing the aircraft, or by instrument...but the do it every day...

Where did you get this...Have you looked at what our soldiers make....A cpl with 3 to 4 years time in is making well over 50 k a year...how many industries can match that,with only grade 12 education...yes there are some but not many...Pay is not the problem, what is, is the lack of infra structure to house them all, not enough equipment, thats the problem....

Correct me if i'm wrong but a longer winch will allow for the aircraft to obtain a greater hieght , thus negacting the dangerous down wash would it not, as for the pilots lossing reference, i thought the Cormorant had an Auto hover capability....that and i thought that was the Flight Engineer's job to keep the pilot informed on where the helo was in ref to crew on the ground...could the Osprey not have the same tech put in side it.

Are you saying that more Canadians died on the battlefield than gang members were killed in our cities, because stats would say different...

The Taliban are going to play a role one way or another, be it lead by the US or by what ever Afghan party is in charge...Keep in mind the US will be calling the shots, and if the Taliban screw it up, the US will be back in there ....so they have to play by the rules, or wake up to a stealth helo, and 30 Navy seals... Thats a myth...i will give you this it's not down town toronto, but it is thousand times better than it was when we arrived for ROTO 1.... Another Myth ? taliban eradicated free farmers from growing it, however they taliban were not stupid, and used the drug trade, to finance alot of things....When we were doing patrols here in Roto 1 there were Poppy field every where...and that was in Kanadar right in the heart of Taliban country... Not sure how much of it is used for the legal drug market, i do know that it was talked about using the opium for just that market as a cash crop for farmers...but i don't know what became of it...

It's not that i support them, i just see this incident as minor in nature...Unfortunately we are always going to be on the recieving end, it is what we get paid for, much like leaving unit calling cards, or signs hung around the dead that read "compliments of such and such unit",there are hundrds of practices most armies do that would be considered disgusting by some....Provoking an enemy reaction is what war is all about...War is hell, and does not and will not follow any deep moral values we think should be followed...And as i said before there is no Moral high ground..not in war anyways...it's about killing more bad guys than they are willing to lose...moral high ground, right or wrong has nothing to do with it...and if you can do that you win , you get what ever it was you went to war over....Moral high ground is for historians and civilains to talk about over supper.... One could say it prolongs the war, it is a recruitment tool, etc etc but this war is over 10 years old now, if you asked the average insurgent how the war started he could not tell you, for some he is fighting because the war in some way has touched him personally and he wants revenge, or pay back,for others it's a way to prove his dedication to his religion, But for most he's fighting to provide for his family. For the west, it's about telling one nation they crossed the line, a message to the rest of the world as well cross that line and you'll end up like them... Well there is alot of to what end, the Taliban have been removed from power, they no longer pose a threat to the modern world, they don't have power over the people of Afghanistan....Life in Afghanistan was improved leaps and bounds from what it was under the taliban....but it all comes at a price, one everyone has to be willing to pay...or it is not going to work....we have the vision, we just don't have the will or patients anymore.

What proof have you presented that there is a problem with discipline and command in the entire US military, you've cited a few problems and a few cases , which has been countered by the fact every military has these few problems...and that each one of these problems the military has addressed each one, and has dealt out punishment... what you've failed to mention is that the majority of the military conducts itself within it's rules and regulations and moral values set out by that nation.....If i was to use this logic , and look at our nation, Criminal stats say there are 50 DUI across Canada every 12 hours, does this mean Canadians are drunks, not to mention the amount of Rapes that happen every hour, are we all horney, deprived monsters....your argument does not hold water. And as Bush has explained these militaries are made up from across the scectrum of the entire nation, and reflect upon the entire nation, and it is not just a military problem but one that reflects on the nation itself as a whole....So how can it not be about Americans... If it is common, then it needs to be considered.... Nations and there people claim to hold the moral high ground which is bullshit...they talk a good game but very few people practice it....Soldiers say they do, again we say just about anything we are told to say..but any time in combat and we don't even come close....Yes we can stand up and claim we have not draged and multilated corspes of dead soldiers across town for the media to see... But in WAR there is no moral high ground, Our nations sent us over there to Kill as many as these bastards as we could, as fast as we could, as set very few rules to do it...Think about that for a minute....you have given us a green light to kill....by bullet, bombs, fire,chemical,knife fork and spoon if need be...day and night, while he's sleeping or awake...you don't care you just want us to kill....then you get all creeped out because 4 guys pissed on one of them....But you don't say a word when i use a 25mm cannon on one of them , and vaporize everything about him except his shoes.....My entire piont was this ....nothing is what it seems in combat, your imersed in the horrors of war, eventuly the rules become greyed....or seem minor in nature...Pissing on these guy was menat to disrespect him...it was meant to prevoke a reaction by the enemy....

Some of NORAD's missions. link

We have to continue to fight terrorists and terrorism were every it rises, if we give in anyone that uses terror as a wpn to get what they want will do so....and total caus will erupt... The west has actually gotten very good at fighting terrorism, regardless of what everyone thinks, they have developed new tactics, new methods, new equipment....

cybercoma, You have not just judge someone but you have judged the entire US military, in fact you've judged an entire nation...you done so with the knowledge that Canadian Armed forces have done similar things, in fact if you have done any research you'll find similar instances from just about every nation that has taken up arms.... And yet you remain silent about these crimes or acts instead you have chosen this case to further your SLAG THE US campaign...So which is it is this about slagging the US, or is this about the horrors of war... Your not comparing this act with the above are you.... This statement just reinforces that this is not about the act but instead about the US military and how you feel about Americans as a whole...What your failing to consider is this is not just about the US military but about War in general, and how humans react in a world gone insane...There are examples out there on every nation and how it has conducted itself in war, Not one nation is the exception...ALL have recorded inapproaite behavior.... So what is your piont ? that the act is disgusting and shameful, I think everyone here will agree it was wrong....But that is not your piont is it....it's deeper than that.... And yet i think you have this conception that War is full of rules and conventions that every soldier must conduct himself as perfect citizens of the country they represent...and while that may look good on paper, it fails to recongize the horrors of war, reality in the real world of things...This is where you have made a judement you fail to understand...To you, the act ranks right up there with the beast of criminals, to a soldier that has seen the hoorors of combat is was a minor mistake, yes it is wrong...but in comparison to all the wrongs in war....it is minor....

Talk about post drift....this post has gone from what 4 US soldiers did to some dead taliban to lets bash the entire nation US of A... Frankly it's leaving me with a sour taste in my mouth....What a bunch of hypcrites you are, it must be nice to sit here in your glass towers and throw rocks down on our southern neibors just because we think we hold all the cards...That we are the keepers of western civilizations moral values that we as Canadians have the right to hold our noses up high, to snub our southern brothers and sisters is our right, our duty, it is how we confirm our god like moral standards..... The post started with what 4 US servicemen did to a dead taliban insurgent, it was confirmed what they did was wrong and they were going to be punished for it....The details are very vaugue at best, NO one knows exactly what happend or why they did it....Very few here have been in combat, and don't know what it is like to live in a constant enviroment that has gone insane....Sent there by your nation, sent there with the blessing of most of your countrymen....to do insane things....I'm not making excuses for what these 4 did, but actual combat will give you the largest natual high you've ever experienced....your adrineline is pumping at it's max....your brain is in survival mode....one second it's screaming runm, flee next second it refuses to move from fear...all this time your fighting with all your energy to push down your fear, which has your body trembling , hands shaking, speach is somewhat slurred, vision is narrowed, like tunnel vision, top that off with bullets whinning all over the place, explosions going off , people yelling orders, people screaming in fear, people screaming in pain.....it is total confusion or so it seems for the first time....finally you get control over your emotions , you convince your brain your going to move, shoot, and destroy the enemy.... you jump out from your cover, spot an enemy only 25 meters away, pull your trigger out of instinct and watch the back of his head explode painting the back of a mud wall....you enter the closets mud hut under heavy enemy fire....you've seen 3 comrads go down in great balls of pain.... you push on clear the first floor of enemy with 3 other soldiers, together you've killed 4 insurgents (later you'll find out one of them was only about 8 or 9 years old....you climb the stair well to the second floor...on the stairs is what looks like a dead taliban soldier on the way by you notice he's got serveral exit wounds on his back....as you and your 2 comrads run up past him he stands up, places his rifle to the back of the head of your comrad and fires....he's thrown into me....you turn around he's to close to shoot with your rifle , you pull your pistol, pump 3 rounds into his forehead ....watch him tumble down the rest of the stairs....then turn and carry on with clearing the second floor....the rest of our Bn jioned the battle shortly afterwards....my sgt told us to eat some lunch because we we going to join the Bn in 15 mins... I eat my lunch in a bag next to the boy i'd just shot with my pistol....I was so jacked up with adriniline i could not hold my spoon still enough to put any food on it....nor did i notice his brains split on the floor..so i paced back and forth until we left that building.... everyone handles this stress differently, one guy sang stupid country western songs, he hated country western, other guys had pissed themselfs....another could not stop talking .....That was my first day in Operation Mudusa....it went on for 3 more weeks...all the battles run into each other....but everyone handled their stress differently... Not saying what they did was not wrong...but in combat they're is very little you can do that is wrong...i mean we are talking about killing after all....we are talking about sending kids into battle, were their entire day and night is doing nothing but killing or thinking about it....it consumes you...and in a very short period of time it is what you become.... Yes we have rules and laws...we need to follow, but sometimes what you become ,,,these rules and laws become some what faded....or minor in nature...So before we condemn these guys to death, we need to understand what was going on, what happened during their tour...that made them see a clearly defined law so easily broken....before we make judement we need to step in their shoes... We need to stop throwing rocks, and judging people, we need to consider all the facts, walk a few miles in their shoes....4 marines do not get to destroy the reputation and honour of their comrads, or thier past members that have served around the globe with honor and valor....No sir, it's going to take more than 4 marines...or 10 or 20 for that matter....to destroy the reputation of the entire Marine Corps...let alone the US Army.... They will police their own...you don't have to like the policies or their findings but these young soldiers will pay a price that is higher than you could imigine or understand....

Not a big fan of OPL1Fan but i think he does have a piont, perhaps not articulated well but he has one, Canada has thousands of laws in regards to enviroment protection, and yet when you look at most massive industries that we as Canadians enjoy or profit from, or work at we are ruining the enviroment that sustains us...And for the most part everyone turns the other cheek because we are all tied to making a buck, be it profit or a pay check... Yes we have laws in place to protect the enviroment, but as mentioned they can not be enforced not enough employees,nor funding ... and they are PS employees and we all know how we feel about them and big government....those laws on the books hardly go far enough to really protect our enviroment,enough to ensure it's sustainment into the long term.... and the cost to put inplace effective laws and practices is all about money...proof of that is with the Koyoto Agreement and back in the day government said how much it would cost to meet our goals ......at the end of the day it was to expensive...SO money does talk , and at the end of the day it always wins...so the answer to your question is Yes if we continue on our current path we will ruin our enviroment for a quick buck... It is who we are... Don't get me wrong it is not what i want, i'd like a governemtn that could put in place tough laws with a dept that could enforce them...to clean up our enviroment...but while some of us care about the enviroment, if there is a dollar to be made...look out.

Not sure i'm following the math here, Just so i'm clear you mentioned that 55,000 Canadian citizens served in the American civil war, Canada's population at the time was over 3 Mil Signals.cpl did the math and and 1.5 % of the population was effected.... While the WAR of 1812 14,000 Colonial regulars and militia out of a population of roughly 150,000-200,000 people.That’s anywhere between 7% and 9% of the total population, and that’s just a rough estimate. ( using Signals.cpl numbers. That would mean in regards to % of population involved it would be the largest... If it was based on Numbers alone i'd have to give it to WWII hands down. Another problem i'm having is you said 55,000 served, does that mean over the entire conflict, or does that mean at one time...big difference in % of population effected.... Had the WAR of 1812 been drawn out as the american civil war was it to would have had a massive effect on everything, Also had the war gone bad for the dominion it would have had massive effects... Not sure where your going here Correct me if i'm wrong but the WAR of 1812 was a dircet attack from the US on BNA, while the American civil war was just that pretty much contained to the US...Although BNA was threatened by instabilty of the region...

Was'nt justifying anything, my piont was Israel is not the only player in this topic...but you already knew that...i forgot this was the LETS SLAM ISREAL forum.... How about we stick to the facts BUD, and leave out the pers comments if my info is wrong give me a source, and i will gladly correct it...

I guess the other link is tainted as well the forced migration online....lets make this easy you tell what links you like and what ones BOB does not work for and i'll redo the research....So just so we are clear none of the info is true that is what your saying. Glad i could help, just thought since we were discussing the Palistinian problem we should include the entire problem not just the Israelis side of the story....

No those headstones represent a segment of Canada's population that decided to put thier lifes were it counted.... To preserve and serve this nation because they believed in it...there commitment and sacrafice are not in question by me...but are being twisted by yourself to serve in this piontless argument of yours... You still miss the piont, only because you fail to do your own research....Yes we have been involved in alot of peace keeping missions, in fact our largest peace keeping commitment has been in Yugo....back when the forces was still in the mid 80,000 we had what 2500 soldiers over there at the peak....when other nations had twice that number and 1/2 our size...in fact for the early part of my carear it was like winning the lottery tring to get on tour do to the size of our commitments....where our only commitment was Cyprus less than 700 troops, even at that time Cyprus was a beer drinking tour for the most part....And yes soldiers did die there and in other missions as well like i said it's dangerous job and alot of accidents happen, in fact 80 to 90 % were accidents. Very few died due to direct enemy action...Not that there is a difference as dead is dead and they died serving their nation. But don't come on and act that Canada is a major player on the inter national scene we spend more time trying to get out of our commitments than we do living up to them....and when we do start living up to them well that government is labeled CONS war mongers extreme.... What we do is a dangerous job, but if you were to take a look at the missions we have been on, and the caveats attached to them, you would see Canada has done for the last 30 years what most Euro nations are doing now in Afghanistan...avioding the hard jobs, the fighting and dieing jobs.... Take alook at NORAD and all of it's caveats, find out who pays for what....thats our own air space...Take a look at NATO, see what the other nations contribute in regards to dollars and troops....then take a look at ours....then sit back and tell me i'm full of shit.... Your Kosovo/ Bosina was a perfect example here during this mission Canada had 2 Bn sized org named CANBAT1 and CANBAT2 ,this is waht our allies called us CAN"TBAT1 and CAN'TBAT 2 because the caveats placed on us by our government would not allow us to do anything dangerous....goggle it you'll find it....

No, it's not, a load...I know your not advocating fighting this war on terror in our streets , so i take it you disagree with Canada taking the fight to them....What do you think Bin Ladin and his merry band would be doing today if the US had just sat down and did nothing and said we give up... where do we draw the line in the sand with people who use terror as a way of getting what they want... Heres a good relevant question for you.What was the 3rd largest conflict(possibly the largest when factoring population per capita ratios) that Canada/BNA has bein involved in? Cmon Army Guy don't let me down buddy! I going to have to go with Signals.Cpl on that one the WAR of 1812, keeping in mind that acurate record keeping back in this time was not as it is today, and i'm not sure those numbers reflect localized Militia or town defense units...nor do i think it includes Native American numbers....those numbers would push it well over 10% of the total population... According to the Cenus in 1811 the total population was only 77,000 which would drive that percentage up alot more... link I do your piont , but history has shown us that sometimes using your military only at home is not an option...Should we have waiting for WWI and WWII to spill into north america before acting...That would be a hard call, but i think in WWII's case the war may of changed outcomes with out North Americas assistance...

Shwa: Maybe you can show me were i dishonored any of our fallen soldiers, Because i called into question our nations stand towards it's defense commitments....Your reading way to much into my post if thats what you think i'm doing... And in case that is what your reading into my post STOP, I've never once called into question any of our soldiers contributions to any mission we have been sent on... I've since re written my post serveral times, taking offense to you questioning my honor, loyality, integrity as a Canadain Armed Forces Soldier, i won't bring myself to that level...I've been called alot of things on this forum, and in the real world and normally let it slide , all the while considering the source. So SHWA if you are or where a soldier i will say it was not my intention to dishonour any of our military deeds...It was my full intention to question our Nations commitment to those Missions/Operations and to our Military pacts we have signed.. I used Britain as an example because we've been on almost the same mission, my piont was for you to do some research and compare their level of commitment to ours....in fact you can use any nation really, compare their total troop numbers with how many they deployed at one time ...simple math really....and then compare ours... Seems to be a theme here on this forum that any one that has served or supports the military is a WAR MONGER/ killer whatever ...but then again it's easy for anyone who has not experienced in the military or the effects of war to spew these things when he runs out of inteligent things to come up with... .As for wannabe I've spent almost 30 years serving my country, been to almost every shit hole in the world and seen first hand what evil men can do to each other, the last thing i am is a Wannabe WAR Monger, However i do know that there is a time to carry a big stick and there is a time to swing it...

When was the last time you drove any where in Canada and seen signs of conflict...when was the last time a suicide bomber blew up a market in Canada...or an F-18 dropping bombs in a town near you...we are over there so you don't have to live through that...It's not a red hearing, it's reality...

Guess so, here is a small list of conflicts that Britian has been involved with. And while it may be true we have been involved in some of these take a look at our contributions and military size at the time, and ask your self did we pull our wieght. India, Palestine, Malaya, Korea, Suez Canal Zone, Kenya, Cyprus, Suez 1956, Borneo, Vietnam, Aden, Radfan, Oman, Dhofar, Northern Ireland, the Falklands War, the Gulf War, Bosnia, Kosovo, Take a look at our present defense pacts and take a look at how much we pay or how much we give up...do we pull our wieght not in my opinion....

.link At the time, the population east of the Jordan River contained over 400,000 Palestinian refugees who made up one-third of the population of the Kingdom; another third of the population was Palestinians on the West Bank. Only one third of the population consisted of the original inhabitants of Trans-Jordan, which meant that the Jordanians had become a ruling minority over a Palestinian majority. Jordan: King Hussein of Jordan was maligned throughout the Arab world for having attacked the Palestinian resistance, and although he had now averted the physical threat to his throne, his legitimacy had suffered a crippling blow among Palestinians (who made up the majority of the kingdom's inhabitants) and on the regional Arab scene. Only a few years later, in 1974, the Arab League (and then the UN) would recognize the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, denying Jordan's long-held claim to ownership of East Jerusalem and sovereignty over the Palestinian West Bank population. I think you can check with some of the other countries in the nieborhood for their laws... Yes lets get specific because at one time Jordan and Eygpt were occupping forces as well...But YA we are slamming Israel i get it.... How many Palistinians were expulled from Occupy terrorities again.... When the Haganah went on the offensive, between April and July, a further 250,000 to 300,000 Palestinian Arabs left or were expelled, mainly from the towns of Haifa, Tiberias, Beit-Shean, Safed, Jaffa and Acre, which lost more than 90 percent of their Arab inhabitants.[10] Expulsions took place in many towns and villages, particularly along the Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem road[11] and in Eastern Galilee.[12]"] linkBetween December 1947 and March 1948, around 100,000 Palestinian Arabs fled. Among them were many from the higher and middle classes from the cities, who left voluntarily, expecting to return when the Arab states took control of the country.[9] When the Haganah went on the offensive, between April and July, a further 250,000 to 300,000 Palestinian Arabs left or were expelled, mainly from the towns of Haifa, Tiberias, Beit-Shean, Safed, Jaffa and Acre, which lost more than 90 percent of their Arab inhabitants.[10] Expulsions took place in many towns and villages, particularly along the Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem road[11] and in Eastern Galilee.[12] About 50,000-70,000 inhabitants of Lydda and Ramle were expelled towards Ramallah by the Israel Defence Force during Operation Danny,[13] and most others during operations of the IDF in its rear areas.[14] During Operation Dekel, the Arabs of Nazareth and South Galilee were allowed to remain in their homes.[15] Today they form the core of the Arab Israeli population. From October to November 1948, the IDF launched Operation Yoav to remove Egyptian forces from the Negev and Operation Hiram to remove the Arab Liberation Army from North Galilee during which at least nine massacres of Arabs were carried out by IDF soldiers.[16] These events generated an exodus of 200,000 to 220,000 Palestinian Arabs. Here, Arabs fled fearing atrocities or were expelled if they had not fled.[17] After the war, from 1948 to 1950, the IDF expelled around 30,000 to 40,000 Arabs from the borderlands of the new Israeli state.[18] My link Really name one country that has offered to take them in as equals....in any numbers...Racist crap...it's the truth...and you know it...Maybe if you did some more reading....

Seen any terrorist downtown montreal yet...guess we still making the right choice

There are trade offs all the time, Your not going to tell me in the last 50 years we have been pulling our wieght in regards to any of our defensive pacts are you. (Afghanistan is the exception) All one has to do is look at our pact with the US, then look at who foots the bills or most of it...

SHWA: Please fill me in then ? Since korea were have we split our blood in a military adventure ?