Army Guy

I think it is a problem when people , citizens start to organize to ensure someone else does not get voted back in.....it is the system we have in place right now, there are lots of systems or laws that i don't agree with, I'm a big fan of capitol punishment , but you don't see me shooting convicted felons, why because it is again'st the law, and the rules that govern our nation..... It is a way to to misuse the system, while it may be ok for you to use it to upset the Cons, what if it was used in other ways.....to discredit or swing votes to say the Green party.....

Come on, are you that disillusioned to think that a new government be it NDP, or Liberal, or a combination of both, will bring sunshine and rainbows.... The current system may not be perfect, but it is the one we have in place right now, to change it is going to require the new government to put that in place.....until then the current system is what we have to work with.....and it was never intended for strategic voting.....which can be used to undermine the whole voting process, or outcome of a fair election.....[/size] That old white guy living in that rural area has different concerns than you do, so what....do you think someone in the city gives a rats ass about dairy production, or farming..... If that many people want to get rid of Harper, then there is no really worry is there......[/size]

Let me ask you this, is it morally ok or just to vaporize and man, leaving only his sandals....and his pink mist on the desert floor....knowing full well this man was a bad guy, but also a man, with a wife and kids.....and then the next day be flown home to your family and kids.....do you think that would cause some Moral cognitive dissonance ..... Nothing prepares a man or women for the realities of war....once you've seen it there is no going back to a normal state....it changes everyone....some more than others but everyone changes.....

That is not what this is about for me, i not loyal to one party.....i vote for the party i think best suits me, and what i think is best for me, my family,my riding and for the country........in that order....not because i want second place, unless they had something to offer.....but because that was the original intention of voting....I thought you would understand, and you were talking about supporting the green party, because you liked may 's platform, and the green candidate in your riding, because she was the better choice... you've said your not a big fan of the NDP....so why would you vote that way.....because the greens are not going to get elected....again i support the idea of having a back up vote, but this whole idea of convincing someone to vote stratigically ....to ensure one canidate did not win, well in my opinion i don't think it's right.....

No i'm not, "do you think the voting process and rules and regulations intended that strategic voting be part of the process....can you provide me a link....as i'm still confused......

Do you honestly think that our democratic process was designed with Strategic voting, and you don't think that this whole idea could not be used to undermine the whole process.....Psst ... hey vote for miss may, i'll cut your lawn for 4 years....for free.... And if harper decides to run his government they way he does then that sounds like the democratic process at work....he was elected by a majority.....

I'm inventing some standard perhaps you can show me where it states that the democratic process is just about voting...It sounds like you and the crowd around this whole topic have found a loop hole and are inventing a new way for the country to elect a PM.... I did not say they the voters owed me anything, i said and have repeatedly said it was not the intention of the voting process.......And the people that are suggesting this hairball scheme are not inventing something.....like this nation has been doing it since the inception.....I get it you and many others don't like harper, then get your asses out of your chairs and vote for who i don't give a shit.....you want to base your vote on anyone but harper, then i shows your not interested in what is best for Canada, just "as long as Harper does not win" that is a telling strategy, so much for the theory of democracy ......but the polls show that support for harper, is not declining.....last time i checked this was a democracy, and the party with the most votes wins......And your scared that might be Harper.... Because our system was not designed for strategic voting.....it was not intended for that at all.....unless you can show me in some law or in the constitution........ Why should Harper supporters give a rats asses about why you hate him so much, that your willing to waste your vote for a party you don't support.....because platforms mean nothing , promises mean nothing.....maybe to you....not to me....

Not sure what to comment here, i'm sure if you goggled it. It would explain the whole process..... This system that you have a problem with IS the system that we currently operate under.....It takes an act of Parliament to change it......last time i checked no one has a bill to do that....in fact no party has even put forth a bill as of yet.....But this election , because harper is not going down like a wounded deer, NOW everyone wants to change it..... No "we" don't choose which Candidate is the best suit for the country.....That is done at the party level, really it's politics 101....Once that is done then you get a vote, one vote .....for the candidate of your liking.....Also politics 101....You can't change it mid stream because your limp ass party is not going to remove a party or candidate you don't like.....And who is the "we" bullshit, since when do you talk for the rest of Canadians.....Oh i forgot 70% of Canadians want a change, IF that was fact then there should be no problem booting out the cons or Harper....but the polls show something very different....so different that the citizens who don't like Harper are afraid and have cooked this hair ball scheme of strategic voting....in an act of desperation....

The democratic process was set up not to defeat a government currently in power with the assumption that ANYONE is better than that guy.... but for Canadian citizens to vote for the candidate who's platform suits his or hers needs or the countries needs best..... Not to organize a movement that will undermine the process....it is my opinion that this move contradicts your statement that 70 % of Canadians want harper out.....and yet thats not what the advanced polling charts are showing..... Your not happy with the current voting system, i get that neither am i, but none of the current parties have that on their platform.....why because it seems it is not an issue.... I think your putting to much faith into a lib or NDP coalition, both platforms are miles apart, they have both said they would not work well together....i think any minority government will fall, and we will be back at the polling stations before to long.....and we will continue to do so until platforms change or leadership changes.....And like you said the war chests are looking pretty slim.....and the tories know that.....

If the majority of Canadians felt that way, why are the polling charts continually show the cons tied with the libs, and NDP dropping faster than a japanese bullet train.....If as it is quoted here somewhere, that 70 % of canadians want harper out.....then the other parties would have a clear advantage in the polling charts....instead they don't and now they are forced to come up with loop holes in the voting system, as a last desperate act..... Good luck with that....and remember you may not like the outcome....the Libs and NDP are miles apart when it comes to platforms, and we'll be stuck with a coalition, or a party we don't want and a platform we don't want.....for 4 years.....but hey it does not matter harper will be gone....about you just vote for the party that suits your needs best.....i know it's a novel concept...

I think it takes away from the democratic process, it is a loop hole that only a party in trouble would use....do you think it keeps with the original intent of our voting system... while my gloating is premature, you can't say that there is not major concern from the opposition parties that they are in trouble......How long do i think a minority government will last.....not long, for any minority government .....but their may be some good news, it may have the party look at changing the leadership up....maybe Harper will step down....for whom not sure....

Then i would say you don't understand War and what it means to experience it, good or bad cause it is the same to the guy on the ground......

Must piss you guys off to no end that there may be a chance that the Cons might win once again.....How desperate do you have to be to devise this scheme up.....And still call it a democratic election.......My party can't win , so i'll vote for the other team.....it's finding a loop hole in the system and taking advantage of it.....desperate times i guess.....and desperate people.....whats next paying people to vote for your party......

Nice deflection.....but that was not what the question was,

If history has taught us anything at all, it is not being prepared for conflict costs our nation, the lives of it's soldiers, and citizens. WWI and WWII were perfect examples of this.... WWI Canada had started the war with only 3110 officers and men.....and they had been given Sam Hughes, who actually thought he was a soldier, he gave canada the ross rifle, MacAdam shield shovel, Boots and webbing designed for the boer war, and the colt MG, not to mention the total screw up of intial training in Valcartier and so on, where soldiers were given a few small amount of training then sent to the killing fields of europe, where they either learned their craft or were buried in some field in France.....Canada would go on to accomplish many great feats during the war, forced to become a professional force.....but at what cost Canadian lives....WWII Canada military force stood at 4169 officers and men.....armed with WWI left overs.....can anyone see a trend here....i could go on and talk about Korea, etc but you get the point..... I don't think anyone in Canada is calling for a huge military, that includes those that are pro military....it is not who we are as a nation.....what we have been screaming for is a force that is properly equipped and trained with the latest wpns....this would allow or stop the needless slaughter of troops with little training or experience during the outset of the conflict, as the previous lessons we forget about, and you know you still see today, how can we forget wrong camouflage uniforms, iltis jeeps, no desert climate training, the list goes on .....and they all have one thing in common....soldiers had to die to force change.......i guess perhaps you are right, better to pay out the cost to bury Canadians than to spend funding on equipment....it's cheaper, a soldiers life is worth one years wages, a coffin, a flag, a small honor guard, some music ......and some memorial with names and numbers on it when it is over.... And while this may be true, to alot of canadians, "that thinking it is to expensive" to have a ready, fit , military is a waste of money...... what i see in each and every soldier, Airmen, Sailor is a hero , people that believe that this nation is worth the cost, regardless of what others may think, that being a canadian is more than watching hockey and collecting pogey......All they have ever asked in return is for the Canadian citizen to have their backs,...that would include ensuring they are properly equipped, properly trained, and ensuring the Government does not send on fruitless missions, so they might have a chance to return to their families and loved ones......Not a whole lot to ask for, when they are willing to risk their lives..... The military industrial complex is a major world player, any nation, group or individual can purchase anything if one has funds....including the latest tech, See F-35, or Leo MBT's.....i remember Russia offering us a less expensive alternative to the C-17..... What possible threat to our nation would the us ignore, OK i get what your point is, But then again what possible threat to the US could we ignore.

That is part of it, but having sovereignty means alot more, a nation must earn that respect, it must have the means to enforce that sovereignty through alot of means not just militarily, but through it's courts, it's laws, its moral values, it's immigration policies, it's border protection services,CSIS, Coast Guard , RCMP, and the will of the people to stand by all of that....it must be able to defend all of that with force if necessary, if there is no consequences then nations might be tempted to take what they want when they want.... How so ? are you saying Canada has no say what so ever in any sovereign matters.....I disagree "alot" Canada and the US have gone through periods where there relations have been strained, Canadians have made their own way through history....on a vast topics that has not been in the US best interests. Perhaps those same policies where also in our best interests as well.... Can you provide an example? not sure i'm following you here... Canada has always been afford the opportunity to develop Nuclear wpns, I think if you check history you'll find that it was Canadians that decided that it would not go down this route.....There is a misconception that people have thinking because you have Nuc wpns you are suddenly immune from outside aggression , how is that working for Israel by the way..... Not true, the second invasion of Iraq is an example,

When we talk of Military independence, what does that mean exactly, for me it means having a military large enough and strong enough to be able to handle not only the nations day to day security issues, it's foreign policy issues, and maintain all of it's defensive agreements, but also able to defend the nation from an aggressor the same size as Canadian forces...without having the need for another nation to step in when required.... Currently all those tasks overwhelm our current Military, to the point it may only be able to do one or two of those tasks at the same time..... The consequences of not having a military that can accomplish all those tasks , means having agreements with other nations to fill in,such as the one being discussed..... it also means that another nation may do that by with it's own set of rules and regulations in order to protect it's own troops.....which is a loss of sovereignty unable to enforce our nations laws, unable to protect it's citizens, unable to enforce our own political will on any topic.....How does that not concern Canadians.....and yet the majority is quit happy to have things as there are today knowing full well it is a double edge sword.....And while America is one of our greatest allies, they will act in their own best interest....The Americans have been reminding us of that since forever, that we are free loaders..... Canadians have taken advantage of this alliance for far to long....it's time we paid for our own defence, to have a seat at the grown ups table, to be able to put a canadian spin on world events......or we sit down in the corner and STFU, because we don't have a voice, or nobody is willing to listen or take us seriously....

Good Soldiers do follow orders, but it is also a fact that Canadian soldiers do question orders, and report what is wrong, we also have moral values, that we use to guide us and our actions..... I was commenting on my experience, and not degrading any of the other soldiers experiences ....the conflict has thousands of reasons to effect those that served there....getting PTSD from not destroying poppy fields is a stretch, it may of been a concern....but a major cause of mental disorders, never heard of it from any soldiers i served with....once again not saying it did not happen, just maybe not a major issue or cause of PTSD.... Mental disorder is a part of conflict.....regardless if the cause is good or bad....

Your comments make sense to me, blame it all on the man in power, and yet turn on the news and tell me you can blame all that violence on the men in power.....Man has been killing each other since they picked up the first stick.....it's not the governments fault, violence has always been there.....

Just so i understand what you are saying, are you saying things our current military size is just right.......and because we sit beside the largest super power in the world we can afford to sit back and forget about little things like sovereignty, foreign policy.....

Are you suggesting that it is the same act, same moral thinking and thought process.... to intentionally kill someone or killing someone through a mistake. The link you posted was this done intentionally, there was no mistakes....no bad intel, wrong location, etc.etc.

WOW.....this topic just takes my breath away....and your right the kooks are out of the bushes now.....Maybe just maybe if Canada had taken the defense of it's own Sovereignty serious we would not have to depend on the US assistance.....

You can take the high ground if you wish, but conflict is what has pushed our advances that much is a fact....We could also solve alot of problems through peaceful means....but man COULD do alot of things....if he was not prone to solve issues with violence....that is not going to change anytime soon....maybe one day we'll cure cancer, maybe even the common cold....

I just want to take a minute and comment on these two topics you have brought up. I won't lie to you and say it never happened or those soldiers reports are false, but i can tell you what happened on my 3 tours.....It was a well known rumour that Afghan men enjoyed what we called dirty thursdays..... When we first arrived in country for the first time, the old corp would give you the lay of the land, and things you should know, we concentrated on lessons learned to stay alive....and left the rumors to last....these stories were frequent, .....but with those stories, were also those that included Canadian soldiers reporting what they had witness, and those responsible had been taken away or transferred...what happened i don't know, like i said i was concentrating on staying alive, doing my job.... Within our company there was a incident of a SGT walking in on such an act, him and his section were involved in a 15 min mexican stand off, with ANP....which resulted in an Afghan officer having a C-7 pointed at his head until, the boy could be removed and returned to his village.....that officer and his men were never seen again.....A report was filed and action taken .....what happened i don't know.....nor did i look for answers....Not because i did not care, in Afghanistan those that normally did not return it was because they were buried in the desert some place......Like i said i don't know what happened to those men..... We did not have orders to turn the other cheek....we were told time after time to report , these reports were actioned by both sides....how i do not know... When were dealt with new ANP or ANA members we would tell them out front that we did not tolerate these activities....there would be a few jokes but the topic would not come up again.....they knew we ran our patrols at random hours and random days....they're was no way for them to hide this activity from us.....we would also confirm this by talking to the villagers when they were not present..... In my 3 tours i did not run into this behavior ever.....Not all the ANP or ANA were dirty as portrayed in this media piece....during my tours we covered almost all the Canadian AOR, yes we all heard the rumours.....but me and my guys did not see any of it first hand.... The second was opium fields, yes we were told to leave fields as they are, not sure what tour it was, but i do remember getting this in an O group, for a couple of reasons, most of the fields were owned and controlled by local farmers....trying to make a living in a very harsh country....in turn for not messing with their crops, they kept the IED's off the roads in their area....and it was not just opium fields there was massive Marijuana fields, the largest plants i'd ever seen, to give you an idea, a LAV stands 12 feet from the highest point, i have a picture, of me standing on the turret, and below my waist is covered in plants....those of you that think you can grow pot....you got nothing on these guys..... We hand our hands full at the time fighting terrorists, we did not need to add farmers to the list....that being said crops belonging to war lords that worked with the terrorist were targeted for destruction....and we did alot of this type of work...... While Canadian soldiers are not perfect , we are human, for the most part we share the same morals and values as you do.....don't judge them until you've walked a mile in their boots....

Why is this even a news worthy topic, what do these women do for driver lics, when they go to the bank , get pulled over for a driving offence, or check, when going to the airport to board a flight, showing their passport.....picking up prescriptions at drug mart.....there are thousands of places where all people must show there faces....why not make this another one....what is the big deal.....and why does this offend you....