Army Guy

I see you have meet our local terrorist cheerleader, I've been trying to hook him up for a trip to middle east so he could meet his hero's in a one on one meeting...

Here is the problem with your challenge, no one can guarantee what the future brings us...The CF-18 has been used in combat 4 times, so we have used our air force in combat related missions both in air patrols and bombing ....Europe is preparing for War with Russia within 5 years...That should be a red flag for Canada, China has stated it would reclaim Twain within 5 years....Looking back on our history we have always gone to war with our allies except once Iraq...My point here is you can't purchase equipment based on we will never or rarely use it for that purpose...you buy equipment for the worst case scenario...because we can not produced it fast enough, meaning the next conflict is come as you are... The number the Air force gave the government was between 130 and 150 aircraft to fulfill All of Canadas needs, meaning to protect our air space, to provide aircraft to support ground operations, and our sea lanes, and logistical routes...Canada purchased 138 CF-18's of which 3 sqns were put in Europe...and while the F-35 is more capable aircraft, the number 88 barely covers our air space...does not include support for ground operations, nor does it count in expeditionary missions...and finally it does not include any mention of aircraft crashes....to date there has been 18 F-18 crashes those numbers are not accounted for, or training aircraft, aircraft in deep maintance, or regular maintance ........not to mention everyone is forgetting the fact our next aircraft is going to be around for 40 plus years... Where do you see the gripen in 40 years, operating with gen 6 or 7 aircraft... I'm sure if you were to look at the issue with a micro scope one could justify a much larger purchase, for those reasons... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/cf-18-hornets-1.1003648#:~:text=In 1991%2C the Canadian Forces,against Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi. Reliability is a factor to be taken into consideration, but is is one of many that need to be taken into account...The primary factor should be what advantages does it give our pilots over their enemies, keeping our pilots alive is the air force most value resource as it takes years to grow and shape a fighter pilot...the F-35 specializes in killing at distance, spotting the enemy before they even know the f-35 is there...those that shot first kill first... Your 100 % right there are no guarantees in anything who knows what the next American president will bring......just like you can't guarantee we will not need these aircraft for combat... American have attacked us for good reason if you were to step back and look at what they wanted I can not remember a US president that has not asked us to get our military and other security apparatus in order, including Obama, What trump did was leave us no other options... I think the word your looking for is dependency, and thats is the US main point Canada has become dependent on the US for almost everything... to include things that give us our sovereignty, and trump has given us the nudge we needed in my opinion...I don't think both nations will be taken long hot showers with each other any time soon, but we are tied to each other for our mutual defense of North America and we need to have at least a business relationship, one that we can purchase military equipment as well as most of our other goods... To be honest Cdnfox, neither of our opinions count for much, i don't think the PM reads or even takes into account any of our opinions....So all of us here are talking into the wind....To your tax point, Yes we all pay taxes, including those men and women that have signed on to unlimited liability.....and whose sacrifice is almost never seen , heard or acknowledged when it is their lives that are on the line...Why is it we chose to ignore their voices.

You do know each aircraft can be used for a specific mission, ie killing air defense , fly Combat patrols, air strikes....once air defense are dealt with, air superiority is established even a guy in a para glider could drop bombs on targets...The F-35 does all of that...better than almost any other aircraft in the world... Being combat tested is one of its measures that most combat aircraft are measured against, actually it is one of the measures that most combat equipment is measured against.... You don't have to like it just is...It is not a requirement it is a measure like any other spec... Liberal party would say different, it was to expensive for the liberals....and the sticker price was priced out for 40 years which freaked out the public.....as well , history is recorded in our media... https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-f35-trudeau-harper-monday-1.3237046 The CDS and prime minister will decide where the aircraft will be used...period you or others stating what they will be used for is irrelevant. Canada has a long history sending troops into combat with inferior equipment, why do you think this aircraft would be any different... Canada has defensive agreements that it must honor as well and while the defense of Canada is the primary mission, NATO, 5 EYEs may dictate these aircraft be used in other operations. That's seems to be the crux of your argument , we don't want to deal with trump...and yet we have 3 more years of trump then what...lets cut off our nose despite its face...How many other US presidents have we had any serios issues with.....Not purchasing the best equipment available because you don't like trump is a silly argument There it is again....You and others on this forum think that those in the military just like shiny things....because they look cool...or it is the latest fad....why not just keep the f-18 do another upgrade and fly them for another 40 years, it would save bils... Combat is final you either win and live or place second place which means your remains is shipped back in a rubber body bag....hard not to want every advantage we could give them....i mean .it is only Canadian lives we are talking about...Where does this attitude come from give them sub par everything.....?..one would think that those men and women that signed on to unlimited liability, that sacrifice for this country in many ways other than willing giving up their lives as ordered...That they don't somehow deserve the best equipment money can buy....No instead we are talking about giving them sub par equipment...because it is cheaper....Why in good god reasons would any Canadian want to volunteer to serve this nation when it does not give a rats a$$ about their lives....the current state of the military is telling and reinforces everything i have said...

Well one of the best air forces in the world decided it was contested enough to use stealth air craft to bomb its nuclear facilities... then there is the Israelis who hit Iran with F-35 on several occasions...I mean if everyone could bomb Iran why not use a bunch of gen 4 aircraft...and risk fighting your way all the way to the target and then back out again... Just to be clear Canada should purchase 88 F-35....That's not my opinion but rather the Air force chain of command both past and present....The idea of floating another fleet for expeditionary fleet is well into the future, and should not be the gripen, despite all the efforts to bring them into the country... F-15EX would be a much much better choice, the US is also exploring the idea of pairing F-35 with F-15 EX to be used as a missile truck, with the F-35 being the control aircraft... The Gripen is Not a combat tested aircraft, it's main selling points is it is cheaper to maintain, WOW, research the capabilities of the F-35 and compare them it is apples to oranges...F-15 is combat tested on hundreds occasions...,104 air to air kills with zero losses....that's got to peak some interest... plus it offers more capabilities than the gripen...Not even why this is bone of contention... Just a years ago Canadians were freaking out over the price of the F-35 purchase...one of the reasons it was canceled....The air force has gone to great lengths arguing against a mixed fleet, already mentioned here, if anything why just not buy more F-35, or wait until, the Gen 6 aircraft comes out....The entire Military needs a massive rebuild , which is going to soak up bils upon bils where does the funding for this second fleet come from....I mean Carney promise to get to 5 % is a just a dream...we are not even going to get close to that... And getting in and out of a hostile nation with modern air defenses without getting spotted or engaged might not impress you, but I'm sure the pilots that fly those missions really enjoy those capabilities....which prove that many of the F-35 touted capabilities do work as advertised. We will not hear about the gripen doing such operations any time soon....

It has been used in combat dozens of times, including attacking Iran in one of the worlds most heavily contested air space...By the US and Israel...perhaps you can show us what proven track record the gripen has...

How much media attention did the conservative floor crosser get, then the retirement of another Conservative members....but barely a mention about over 8 plus liberal cabinet members leaving, or being sent out to pasture. Not that they will be missed, but the liberal crowd is pretty quite...

Yes the F-15EX is more expensive, but your getting much more capabilities and more aircraft, More range , faster, more weapons, etc etc...everything that others have have touted the gripen being better than the F-35....and can be used as both a fighter and Strike aircraft , one that has combat experience with zero losses...And while F-15EX is more expensive i'm pretty sure if Canada did order them it would be a much lower price.... That is not how this combat fighter will be used...The next conflict will be come as you are...todays assembling lines would not be able to keep up with losses....16 F-35 are not going to contribute much....and then they will use those gripens in a high intensive conflict...Canada has a long record of using low end equipment in dangerous situations...that's the problem and the number one complaint from the military, they don't want a sub par fleet be it expeditionary or not...and if so why look at an aircraft that placed in last place every competition...why not the rafale or Typhon...as a secondary fleet if required...Aircraft that would have a much higher survivability rate.. This concern needs to come over the price tag...Canada has a long history of keeping equipment well past it's expiration date....F-18 will be closer to 50 years old upon their retirement...That should speak volumes to everyone in the room....Canada also has a long history of buying from the cheapest bidder, because life is not the top factor...price is... https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/newest-f-35-f-15ex-contracts-are-set-but-how-much-do-they-cost-exclusive/

I think your missing moonbox's point....

He may have said 2 fleets after 88 , F-35 are purchased and delivered and established ...So no mixed fleet at this time....USA is the back bone of NATO and NORAD, and while our politicians are having issues with Trump, Canadian military personal don't have these issues there is still respect and trust between our closet allied. Yes he has suggested we eventually "Could" purchase 2 fleets of aircraft, but not until we purchase 88 F-35...The other two European aircraft have scored much higher than the gripen, but much more expensive, and yet NO Canadian politician is fighting for them, but rather an aircraft that has placed last in 3 separate competitions, because of the offsets That have been offered...I mean lets face it politicians don't score votes just by purchasing equipment unless they get offsets... Now in my opinion ( which counts for nothing in the lager picture. )instead of chasing the last placed aircraft thats scored poorly in the competitions, IF it is decided that a second fleet ( expeditionary fleet) is required, i would purchase more F-35, as the 88 is the minimum required for the defense of Canada, This would increase the amount of offsets and jobs in Canada we original as US official have already said.....we originally purchased 138 F-18 to defend Canada and to have an expeditionary fleet in Germany......or run another competition strictly with 4.5 gen aircraft in mind, The US have been talking about pairing F-35 with F-15EX which would be used as a missile truck while F-35 controlled the engagement... F-15EX out matches the gripen in every category including price...

I've posted this 3 times now, i guess no one watched it....Your author is taking Gen Blondin words out of context...and twisting them to support his augment.....He is not in favor of a mixed fleet he thinks "it would be disastrous" Lets keep in Mind 88 aircraft is just for the defense of Canada, there is NO extras to perform other NATO missions, and doing so takes away aircraft from the defense of Canada...He adds that if you want an expeditionary capability then purchasing another fleet would be acceptable... Again he mentions Why it is not a good idea to have two fleets, we are short on Fighter pilots and to transition to F-35 and then the gripen is a huge mistake and would put incredible pressure on existing pilot numbers....not to mention maintenance pers, purposeful built infra structure already being constructed....supply chains etc etc...He is not the only EX air force commander to say the same stuff....I know you've already written that off as all he wants is the shiniest stuff...Almost like he cared about his pilots, or like any other boss out there in the world....I mean i would take the word of an top security and intelligence expert who must have years of experience flying and commanding air units in Battle........over an ex fighter pilot and commander of the air force any day....WTF were they thinking.... And the idea of putting our F35 in Norway is on the fringe....in order to do that we would need to increase the amount purchased, from 88 to what ever number you want to place in any European country... Anyways, the liberal government is going to do what ever it wants to, whether it makes sense or not, mean while back home in Canada gripen is the song they sing because F-35 is an American machine and right now we hate anything American....we would prefer to cut off our nose despite our face, they will use the offsets which are exactly that brides and pick that over capabilities.............and in typical fashion the military will stand to attention and say yes sir... F-35 already provides over 5000 Canadian jobs today, and not in 30 years from now.......I stand with the people that are tasked with this countries security period. I trust their opinions on the topic more than any other source.....i trust them with my life, Something Canadians have failed to do so for decades...Canadians don't mind them dying for their country, but don't trust them to do what's best for the nation.....and in some cases trust our politicians more... Anyways i do enjoy our chats beaver, i just don't see anyone changing their minds on this topic so I'm going to call it a day....

I get it, most Canadians feel betrayed, by the trump...But what has he really done that we as a nation did to our selves...trump has pointed a lot of problem areas out to us....and for the most part we shrugged and did the minimum necessary, increased 1000 border guards, did the same to the RCMP...Border services has said many times they are 2000 people short, the RCMP has said 3 thousand short so we really did not fix the issue , we just put another band aid on it...Our military well we all know the story there....we have starved them of funding to the point they can't buy spare parts for it's equipment....PMQ's or married housing was built inn 1957, some of them don't have working bathrooms, or clean drinking water, and the rent is the same as those on civy street....Some Infra structure is CONDEMNED....not fit for use, and still military persons working in them.... His threats are meaningless...off the deep end, meant to scare us into doing something , anything....I mean every US president has asked Canada to get it's military in order for decades...and we smile , and under our breaths say FU charlie brown... well trump is telling us, not asking us and that what got so many pi$$ed off, but some times you need to kick someone in the a$$....to get them moving....Why do you think Justin father purchased Leopard tanks, and CF-18 he was threaten to do so or pack his bags in Germany...

It would take 3 to 5 years just to build the plant here in Canada, THATS a huge part of the proposal..... then there is training the staff to build it, tooling, Then they can start building aircraft, slowly at first because the work force is not experienced...and your right nobody knows today when the F-35 is going to fix all of its problems....but one thing we do know is the F-35 is 100 % more aircraft than the gripen, and while it is chasing balloons maybe....the F-35 will be another opportunity we missed out on...

1...Current CF-18 availability rates are 40 % and below....f-35 availability rates are between 50 and 60 % US wide ....Canada is waiting for block 4 upgrades which were suppose to be completed by 2026, and have been delayed which would solve a lot of the problems they are having now.. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f35-contract-royal-canadian-air-force-1.7487233 With Block 3F as the final build for SDD, the first major upgrade program is Block 4 which began development in 2019 and was initially captured under the Continuous Capability Development and Delivery (C2D2) program. Block 4 is expected to enter service in incremental steps from the late 2020s to early 2030s and integrates additional weapons, including those unique to international customers, improved sensor capabilities including the new AN/APG-85 AESA radar and additional ESM bandwidth, and adds Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receiver (ROVER) support.[74][75] C2D2 also places greater emphasis on agile software development to enable quicker releases.[76] The key enabler of Block 4 is Technology Refresh 3 (TR-3) avionics hardware, which consists of new display, core processor, and memory modules to support increased processing requirements, as well as engine upgrade that increases the amount of cooling available to support the additional mission systems. The engine upgrade effort explored both improvements to the F135 as well as significantly more power and efficient adaptive cycle engines. In 2018, General Electric and Pratt & Whitney were awarded contracts to develop adaptive cycle engines for potential application in the F-35,[N 9] and in 2022, the F-35 Adaptive Engine Replacement program was launched to integrate them.[77][78] However, in 2023 the USAF chose an improved F135 under the Engine Core Upgrade (ECU) program over an adaptive cycle engine due to cost as well as concerns over risk of integrating the new engine, initially designed for the F-35A, on the B and C.[79] Difficulties with the new TR-3 hardware, including regression testing, have caused delays to Block 4 as well as a halt in aircraft deliveries from July 2023 to July 2024.[80][81] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II 2... then you should be a big fan of just keeping the CF-18 now and save the extra billions we spend on fighters....I mean if most of it's time will be chasing weather balloons and flying over the grey cup which is a big % of the job...and as for the weather balloons we had to use a F-22 to down it...because the F-18 was not up to the task.... And in case you did not comprehend some of my early posts " Most of Europe is preparing for the next war, estimated to be here in 5 years...And since we are Part of NATO that would include Canada, but wait China has told the world it will retake Taiwan within the next 5 years....and we are also part of that defensive pact....So we are not buying aircraft because the Air force only does occasional fly pasts and air shows.... it buys aircraft to Defend Canada, and it's foreign policy and despite our conversation, and our governments opinions, the pilots want to strap into an aircraft that would have the best chances of coming back home to their comrades and families not sure why that does not resonates with Canadians...knowing it was the cheapest bidder does not instill confidence in your equipment which reflects on your fighting abilities.... 3.... Thats not true, Americans had a frigate design of their own, as part of the Frigate replacement program, also had New Destroyers , which in reality our new frigate of choice is as large as most Destroyers...Not to mention we could have chosen Nuclear subs....which really is what we truly needed to fully patrol our artic waters...and for a country busy trying to justify spending 5 % of GDP nuclear subs would not be out of our price range... 4....There are literally thousands of aircraft flying today....by a good portion of NATO countries....so the logistical tail gets smaller because there are more spares, weapons available...Leopard tanks would have had to been approved by the government it is how the process works...Not sure what your point is here, but i'll concede the tank purchase to you, even a broken clock gets it right twice a day....both of us could give a huge list of political purchases gone wrong... Canadian air force has a long history and most of it's aircraft are not US....i would say in recent times yes, but look at these aircraft and tell me there was a better choice.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_Canada's_air_forces As for Helos US had the MV-22, CH-47F, or even the UH-60 L or M , US did not want to live up to Canada's demands for off sets....remember these are all about what the politicians want not what the military wants... 5....You keep thinking that some general only wants the shiniest equipment...for their own enjoyment....And while this may be a foreign concept but these people p[ick this equipment because they know LIVES depend on it...they are not buying construction equipment or a few new cars... they are buying Combat equipment, and they pray that it will only be used on parades and fly pasts.... But our Government has sent soldiers, airmen and naval pers into situations that put their lives in danger if you could guarantee that in the future sure F-18 are fine....but you and i can not, and young Canadians will be strapping themselves into this equipment, where the world that is at it's peak for self destruction.... The next conflict is come as you are....if you think 16 F-35 is going to make the grade in the next conflict, your mistaken...Airmen in Germany would tell us when they launched the complete fighter wing, only a 1/3 would return to be rearmed and resent out on additional missions...none were expected to return after the third sortie... those where brand new CF-18....Modern warfare is even more deadly....4.5 Gen aircraft are not going to last long with gen 5 and 6 aircraft in the skys....Don't rely on what i say, ask a fighter pilot.... 6.... Americans were tired of paying for most of the bills...there is a point that Europe took advantage of that fact including Canada...trumps actions have turn that around, Europe is investing big time, had not been for trumps actions they would still be relaxing by the pool.....look at what Trump has done for Canada, do you think we would ever exceed 2 %, let alone 5 %....and yet here we are ... 7....reliabilities rates are between 50 and 60 %, Block 4 upgrades are expected to bring those numbers way up....and it is not the worlds most expensive fighter, it sells for 80 million a copy or less....dropping even lower...Gripen cost more...and offers much less..NO what your proposing is kill the purchase of the remaining F-35 and fill those numbers with much less capable aircraft to do fly pasts, and chase balloons...And yet the Airforce is screaming to anyone that will listen NO we don not want a mixed fleet, we want a single F-35 fleet...The government wants Canadian jobs, it wants to produce and aircraft here, it wants off sets, which really is a politically charged word for kick backs...See the difference you and the government are all about saving money, while the air force is all about saving lives... 8...Yes there is a design , a Canadian one, that was a competitor for the P-8 contract and we shut it down.....of course that was before trump but that contract is already signed....and the P-8 are going to be reality.... https://www.iai.co.il/p/eli-3360-mpa https://bombardier.com/en/media/news/bombardier-defense-and-general-dynamics-mission-systems-canada-are-collaborating-deliver Yes the military is going to have their say, they will focus on what they want in they're presentations....which is in a written report....which will be read by politicians , who will be reading what offsets they will be getting and how many votes can they buy.....and in most cases they fail to provide the best equipment for the military....and occasionally they get it right, C-17, C-130, CH-47, and a few more but i could list dozens they got wrong...

That would make sense if our government did not volunteer our military forces to hot spots around the world...

This makes no sense at all....we just purchased the P-8, which is on a 737 airframe, and over looked its counter part also on a 6500 airframe....now because it looks good politically and trump is such a bad man , we can't buy the wedge tail because we have a lip on.... Tell me how this is a military decision because they are cozy with their American counter parts....This is ALL political, and further illustrates just how powerless the military is when choosing it's own equipment...

So buy more....the F-35 has 100% more capabilities than the gripen...it has more growth than the gripen, it does a sh!t ton more than the gripen , why do you think the air force by passed it 3 times in a row....What people do know is in less than a decade when gen 6 aircraft are being produced gen 4.5 aircraft will be nothing more than targets....to anyone daring to fly them....

1..Problems that are being worked out, problems that do not keep it from combat operations.... 2..Both typhon and rafale are much better than the gripen.....Both of these aircraft placed in the top three in all 3 of those competitions Canada held... But we are not thinking about those aircraft.... 3...Yes they have canceled their orders not because of faults with the aircraft but rather problems with trump and his policies...try again... My entire point is that we don't use US military equipment for all our needs the largest purchase this country is going to make is going to Germany or south Korea...The second largest is a British design made here in Canada....your point is blown out of the water... We have been using the leopard main battle tanks for decades....Why because our military likes it better than the Abrams... we don't have the logistical tail like the US, to feed it with fuel which it drinks like a drunken sailor... It was widely reported that Elvis was seen leaving the building, You don't understand how procurement works, it does not matter if our military was sleeping with American manufactures....they don't pick any of our equipment, it is set up that way because guys like you believe there would be bias of some sort... military writes up a spec sheet on what they want it to do, or accomplish....Civilians from our procurement dept scour the globe for equipment that fit that spec....military test it , writes up a report on what it found during testing ....The sitting government picks what they are going to buy....So sucking up to our American brothers by our military has zero effect...Maybe you got another theory... SO if I'm following your train of thought we should buy something that barely makes the grade, and if or when a war comes we could go to war in sub par equipment....Military always plans for the worse case situation, and adapts to all the rest...I mean these are Canadian lives we are talking about....And we have a long history of doing just that, buying cheap and burying our dead... Not sure where you got that, NATO is expanding faster now than anytime in it's history, NATO in Europe are preparing for the next WAR today....some countries invoking conscription or thinking about it, massive military spending...countering your augment. America will not be on the side lines....America wants the rest of NATO to stand up and be accountable, and invest into the organization they belong to....I'd like to see where you came up with that idea... Air Command past and present are saying NO, NO, and NO to a mixed fleet they are also saying NO to the gripen....The F-35 is the path they want ....it has more growth than any 4.5 gen aircraft already at it's end of life

F-35...everything else favors the F-35 a gen 5 aircraft with capabilities the Gripen could only dream off....it's sensors can spot enemy aircraft well beyond their own radar coverage, shooting first is a wining strategy and killing at distance is the F-35 domain...It has been battle tested by Israel and the US.... We only have 3 more years of trump....are we going to be that petty as to depriver our pilots defending this country by flying the best aircraft on the market right now....

No they don't have to be the same aircraft.....but how many are buying more 4.5 gen aircraft to replace older aircraft.....why is that...ever wonder why the gripen is lacking sales....Yes they are investing into gen 6 aircraft, but they have already purchased F-35 and no they are not buying a cheaper gen 4.5 to save on money.... Your making promises you can not have the knowledge / experience or access to Military intelligence to make...if it is impossible Why are we about to spend bils on artic defense ? Now if you think if Russia invades Europe that Canada will not mobilize its forces your not thinking this through. Most European NATO countries are preparing for war...NATO predicts within 5 years....now I'm not a military genius But I'm pretty sure NATO generals have thought this through millions of times, and they are convinced their predictions are real....All of them think Russia is very capable of burning large portions of Europe to the ground... Air command has shot down the idea of mixed fleets for many reasons...watch the videos i provided.... Yes the old adage of the military wants the shiniest most expensive US kit.... I mean why would they want the best equipment it is only their life's that are at stake....And yet our new subs are either German, or South Korean, our new frigate ships are British designs , our Main battle tanks are German. Your message comes in loud and clear, you don't trust our own military leaders to make the best choices....again why waste all the effort in having the military pick out specs and then test this equipment when we could just have a vote and All Canadians could pick on what they like....

Your source is dated 2019....and is very outdated, It does not have issues in cold weather, they operate out of Alaska, all the time and there is no palm trees there... https://www.eielson.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/3591523/f-35-lightning-ii/ https://breaking-news.com.ua/en/news/world-en/defense-express-compared-the-operating-costs-of-the-gripen-with-other-fighter-jets/ A mixed fleet is the way to go according to you, and yet Many of the commanders of air command don't see it that way , maybe you can give us a source on what your basing this opinion on....or maybe like the other posters on here it is based on nothing really. Yes Gripen is more cost efficient to fly, one could also say the spitfire would also be more efficient to fly and maintain, but lacks everything the F-35 offers, your comparing a 4.5 fighter to a 5 th gen fighter it is not apples to apples ...Canada has a long history of keeping equipment for 40 plus years...the world is working on gen 6 aircraft now....and god knows what they will be working on in 40 years....SO why invest in a fighter that is outdated already.. If it is all about saving money then like i said buy spitfires....I find these comments funny because Our own military pilots have chosen the the F-35 in 3 separate competitions. each one of these competitions found the Gripen placing at best 3 rd place because 2 European competitors dropped out... Nobody is even bringing that point up....why would we pick a fighter that does not even place in the top 5.. Are you suggesting that OUR politicians know better than the men and women that fly these machines....or maybe we don't value their Live's enough to buy the best aircraft available at the time...which one is it...

I agree the out come was planned for in advance, Everyone said the would vote down this budget....but in reality conservatives do not have the polling numbers , NDP is broke, Bloc was the only party that voted in good faith and did what they said they would.....I don't see anything changing by spring either...

Being interoperable with the US has Always been our first priority...for lots of reasons, NATO demands it, AMMO resupply, munitions be it aircraft or ships, Spare parts, if you operate a small fleet such as the gripen parts are going to be an issue where as F-35 has thousands of aircraft in service and parts are readily available for dozens of nations. Our continental defense is on NATO plate and they have been trying to get Canada to keep its promises for decades now, the fact that none Artic nations within NATO are responsible for NATO's northern defense such as UK, etc....is telling... Right now European NATO countries are preparing for the next war NOW, some have adopted conscription, massive military investments, they are telling the world within the next 5 years Russia will attack...SO you or i can not say for certain that Canada will not be attacked, in some form or another. That's not NATO trying to scare non euro countries into action they are spending and investing at levels not seen before...Out military plans for all threats including invasion.... Nobody from Air command is pushing a mixed fleet, and certainly not a gen 4.5 aircraft....if that was the case we would have went with the super hornet much more capable than the gripen....both are outdated when dozens of counties are investing in gen 5 and 6 aircraft as we speak...might as well be flying kits....Nobody from Air command is pushing the gripen....that's our politicians and others, and Canadians which have a knot on for trump....which in this case over rides what the air force wants or what pilots pick out for survival... I have to ask do you let your wife pick out your power tools, that's what it is like when politicians pick out military equipment....

Your 100 % RIGHT, we don't have to buy the any aircraft really, we could just upgrade our F-18 fleet once again.........I mean it would fit in with Canada's long held look at its military, it is cheaper to bury them than it is to buy modern equipment... I mean look back through history we have purchased most of it is not top tier....and yet our politicians have never taken that into account when sending our troops over seas...the result is dead military members....If lives do matter then spend the extra dollar and bring our men and women home.... if your as cheap as Canada is you get a highway of hero's.....Our government has continued to send our troops into danger without even considering the equipment they do it in.....and Canadians don't give a f**** either...or we would not be allowing our government to send our troops any where with out the proper equipment...

Nobody within the forces is recommending a mixed fleet , it is mentioned why they are not in several of the U tubes i posted....it offers no advantages at all at this point in time, with no funding for training , lack of pilots, not to mention they are already constructing infra structure tailored for the F-35... Can ANYONE in Canada guarantee what these aircraft are used for....What you leave out is what our F-18's have ben used for, Part of NATO's European defense, doing combat air patrols over Iraq, and the gulf, attacking Iraqi naval ships, participating in operations in Syria, Libya, Iraq, Kosovo and many more.... Lets talk about what combat operations the gripen has taken part off.. playing a role in NATO defence.... The F-35 has done multiple combat sorties against Iran, one of the world most heavily defended countries in the world, Iraq, Syria, Not including any of the US operations....And not one combat loss recorded....I ask you which one would you want your children or grand kids to strap up in.... Canada has a long history of keeping equipment well past it's due date, F-18 is a prime example and is coming up on 50 years before being fully replaced....Gen 4.5 aircraft are already outdated with Gen 6 aircraft coming on line....even with so many gen 5 aircraft...Canada might get in on a gen 6 aircraft, but like the f-35 it will be very mature before we buy in, and then other nations will be getting a gen 7 aircraft...