Moonbox

A couple of questions Michael: If you are running these projects, and you ask for money without producing a budget, what happens? If you begin the project and start spending money, but you don't record where any of it was spent, what happens when you request subsequent installments? If the progress of your project is abysmal, and you can't account for where 50% of the money you were given, what happens? Which, when you get right down to it, is a pathetic state of affairs. $50-60M unaccounted for? Oopsie. Well, at least they're doing better now. That's a joke.

No offense intended, but do you have ANY experience with handling large sums of anyone else's money? It really doesn't seem like it. Regularly producing receipts, proving the work you're doing is both necessary and has actually been done, progress and expense reports etc. are all requirements in the real world to keep money flowing. If that doesn't happen, money is withheld. There's a good reason for that. It's so that potential misappropriations are either caught or rectified before even more money is misappropriated. In this case, you can't exactly withhold money required for survival of a community, but you can take over its distribution and remove the offending parties (Theresa Spence and the Attawapiskat band) from the equation. I think that's due less to your measured and level-headed approach to the issue and more to the fact that you don't seem to really understand what an audit is and what this audit determined. Your response to its findings seem more appropriate for a Kindergarten classroom than any sort of rational debate. "Oh! You made a big oopsie! Let's try to do better moving forward okay?" Oops. $60M of taxpayer money is unaccounted for. No big deal. Let's move on. We're doing better now, right, and that's all that's important?

Itemized bills and receipts explaining what was spent, what it was spent for, where the money went, the cost breakdowns etc. They don't have that.

Get over it. It's a word. The only reason you took extra exception to it is because she's a member of the First Nations, and for some reason you keep trying to add racial implications to comments that had none, just like the Vegas one previously. Theresa Spence is deserving of every ounce of mockery and criticism she's getting, and it's not because she's Cree. It's because she's an idiot or a crook, or just as likely both.

Whatever Theresa Spence is doing isn't going to lead to productive engagement either. She's making a joke out of herself now. Her protest has turned into a mockery in light of the accounting scandal on the reserve under her watch (as either Chief or Deputy Chief) and now after getting basically what she demanded from the start (a meeting with Harper) she's moved the goalposts and is demanding something else. Yawns, laughs and sneering contempt are what she's going to end up getting. Her reputation is ruined. Even other First Nations Chiefs are distancing themselves from her. “I admire what Spence is doing, but it’s tough to defend those numbers,” Kanesatake Grand Chief Serge Simon told the Montreal Gazette shortly after a damning audit into Attawapiskat’s finances was released.“When something like this happens, it kind of rubs off on all of us,” added Ryan Rice, an administrator for the Kahnawake Mohawk Council.

I couldn't care less what you think that word means. I used it because I wanted to avoid something like piece of s***. If anyone wants to try and make that argument, they are free to make the attempt, but I'll assure them I use the same sort of language for anyone public service who abuses their public responsibilities, which the Attawapiskat band clearly did. No. We know that both she and the band are incompetent and/or untrustworthy, and that the co-manager she was assigned is also untrustworthy for engaging in a romantic relationship with the chief of the organization he was supposed to be overseeing. Anything beyond that is pure conjecture that you're throwing in here to confuse things. Don't even try and pull that sort of bullshit. You're the only one who's trying to bring race into the discussion, and you keep doing it over and over and over again. You seem intent on diverting the discussion in that direction, perhaps to distract us from the money trail, but let's stick to that shall we. Money went to Attawapiskat. Over half of it virtually disappeared.

Not really. There's more a policy of appeasement than anything. I couldn't care less about what sort of emotions you express about the situation. I'm merely trying to point out that most of what you're saying is just political-speak and fluff. "Elevate the dialogue" might sound good to you, but it means absolutely nothing. Theresa Spence and her band are protesting outside Parliament about the apathy and terrible treatment they're receiving , yet her band has grossly mismanaged the funding sent to them and can't account for where most of it was spent. Maybe it wasn't enough money. Maybe it was. Maybe they stole and misappropriated it, maybe they didn't. Nobody knows. All we do know is that she and her band are either colosally incompetent or completely untrustworthy, and that any dialogue with such a creature is bound to be fruitless. If that reserve wants any sort of meaningful dialogue, they need to find better representatives.

There is no trust. When you're entrusted with that much money ($100M+) and you won't account properly for where over HALF of it was spent, despite numerous requests and warnings and literally flout common sense practises with spending public money, you forfeited that trust. There's no specific evidence that money was stolen or hidden, you're right. There's also no evidence that it was spent properly either. That's the problem here. In the world of accounting and money tracking, the burden of proof lays on the person responsible for handling and disbursing the money. It's a responsibility to keep track of it. The Attawapiskat band did not do this, so there is literally ZERO way of knowing whether the $50-60M was stolen or misappropriated. The monumental stupidity of the band (with Theresa Spence as Chief of Deputy Chief at the time) would in any other circumstances suggest either criminal incompetence/neglect or gross corruption. There is a fiduciary responsibility here that was blatantly ignored or wilfully abused and the more you read about this the more likely it looks that we're looking at gross corruption. In what world is it appropriate that after discovering enormous accounting irregularities (a very bad and damning term in the accounting world), the co-manager imposed on the reserve ends up in a romantic relationship with its Chief, WHILE he's co-managing the reserve!?!? There was no conflict of interest he says!! Not only that, but he was earning +$150,000 a year with a CGA designation (something a monkey could get), while sleeping with the woman he was basically supposed to be watching over!

Okay so we've transformed this into an environmental debate now? If you want the garbage picked up, take the people on welfare and put them to work doing it as a condition of welfare benefits. Maybe increase their welfare benefits. $20/hr to pick up garbage though? Nope.

Sad story. That's what happens when the government tries to trim the budget. Garbage picking isn't hard work. Anyone can do it. It's boring and it's manual labour, but it's definitely an expendable job! The government could, if it wanted to, create jobs for every single Canadian who wanted to work for them. Most of these jobs would be a waste of money and would add very little to the economy, but that never seems to be an issue for you!

For someone working 'in business', you seem to have a poor understanding of what an audit is. As smallc stated, according to the auditors the majority of the money they spent was spent without proper supporting documentation. There are apparently six figure items where the only paperwork backing them up is a little note saying something like, "Repair X" with no bills or receipts or paper trail. Some of the older items literally have no explanation for them and the taxpayers are just supposed to take it on faith that whatever explanation is given is true. When we say that there are tens of millions of dollars that cannot be accounted for, that's literally, and factually exactly what we're looking at here.

What about it am I misstating? Millions of dollars are completely unaccounted for. Either they have no idea where it went at all, or how the decision was made, or how much it actually cost OR they don't want to say. First off, I'm no less outraged by government boondoggles. I could give you a long list of federal civil servants and politicians who should be in jail right now. This is very different though. The amount of money unaccounted for in the Attawapiskat's books are on the same sort of scale we'd be horrified at on a provincial or even national scale. The band in charge of a community of 2000 people can't account for tens of millions of dollars. If they'd misplaced a couple of hundred thousands, that would be bad enough, but TENS OF MILLIONS? FOR TWO THOUSAND PEOPLE!?!? It's one thing for $50M to go missing in something as big as the the Ontario Health Ministry (still deserving of jail IMO) where small errors can accumulate to a larger scale, or where one department has no idea what the other is doing, but for it to go missing on a tiny reserve governed by a handful of people? F*** no. Something is SERIOUSLY wrong there.

Volunteer work =/ Employment. Sorry to bust your bubble. You volunteer your time for a cause or service you believe in, and if your causes and beliefs aren't supported by the market then you don't get paid. I would spend my whole day walking dogs and puppies at the Humane Society if someone paiid me a salary to do it. I love dogs. I don't particularly love finance.

To start, reserves like Attawapiskat need to have their band replaced and third party management in the near term of their finances. Further oversight (auditing) of the books on problem reserves needs to be taken. In the long term, the reserve system needs to be dismantled because it's completely broken and works on a flawed premise and has been proven unworkable throughout history. Under the current reserve system? Absolutely. I do not believe there is a chance in hell that any people, from any creed/race/religion, First Nations or not, that would thrive under the current system. It's a system that's doomed to fail and that will encourage the culture of outrage and defeatism for as long as it's in place. No. I think Attawapiskat's band specifically can't be trusted to manage itself, because it's been proven to be untrustworthy. The improvements that have been made were not voluntary, and were not made in the spirit of cooperation, but rather because they were forced and overseen by the government. Not being able to account for $100M of taxpayer's money is gross negligence on a colossally stupid scale at best and in any other circumstances would be cause for criminal charges. The members of the band council responsible at the time should be in jail. They will not not face any consequences because they are First Nations, however, and without consequences, human nature will assert itself and we will have this sort of thing continue to happen for as long as things remain the way they are. The worst part is that they know this and happily throw it in our faces. See Theresa Spence's protest. Whether she was responsible for it or not, she knows very well that her band royally f****d things up and yet she's still out there protesting about...who the hell knows what!?

They tried that and it was struck down by the courts. With the audit as evidence, however, this may end up being reinstated. Given the ongoing and long-term incompetence/corruption, however, this doesn't seem like just an option. It appears necessary. It's an important thing. Improving after gross incompetence and/or corruption, however, does not excuse it, and if that's what you're suggesting then you and I live in completely different worlds. My playlet was a brief paraphrase of exactly what's happening right now. Theresa Spence's summary dismissal of the audit is indicative of how much she cares. It doesn't matter to her that millions of dollars are unaccounted for. Acknowledging a problem is the first step in fixing it, but Theresa and her band can't even go that far. Is this a good indication of their chances for redemption? Not any meaningful consequences. The imposition of third party management was struck down. Nobody was really held responsible. The criticism appears to be perfectly accurate. The mockery going along with it seems well-deserved. Again, I point to the irony of a First Nations Chief protesting/complaining about government neglect when her band won't prepare or keep a budget and won't/can't tell anyone where they spent money the government previously sent to them, despite numerous warning/complaints against such deficiencies. Whatever the plight of the Attawapiskat reserve, it's becoming quite clear that the band has made the situation much worse and is continuing to do so.

WOW! That's one of the most hilarious things I've read here in a long time. Anyone with a shred of common sense could see why this wouldn't work. Ignoring the fact that volunteer work ceases to be volunteer work if people are getting paid for it, did you give this any sort of rational thought before you posted it? Did you consider that there is a demand for volunteers because volunteers don't get paid? Follow that train of thought and see if you can come to the only possible conclusion.... I'm worried about you man.

What do you mean, "why should we even deal with them?" We don't have a choice. As for your other point, why should any of us have any faith in the Attawapiskat band? This wasn't just a one-year whoopsy. This was an enormous violation of trust, a slap in the face for taxpaying Canadians and it was ongoing for years despite numerous warnings and complaints. That's bad enough, but the worst part of the problem is how the band's chief has been on a "hunger strike" for weeks now decrying her reserve's treatment at the hands of the federal government. The gall, arrogance and stupidity of this woman is appalling. Theresa Spence: "The federal government is neglecting us an leaving us destitute!" Federal Government: "Well what on Earth did you do with all that money we sent you!?" Theresa Spence: "Umm..We don't really know, but that's not important. What's important is that we're not getting enough money!" That's insanity. Michael, that's a bunch of balogna. Incompetence or corruption both need to have consequences. If it was the government, there'd be charges laid and the people involved would never be re-elected (see AdScam). The First Nations already enjoy an enormous double-standard here, but clearly something needs to be done. They've proven they won't operate competently or in good faith. Now what? Not business as usual, sorry.

You deserve a big eye roll for that. Is there a sneer emoticon too? Criticize them responsibly? That's pretty rich. Is this some sort of new standard you've developed specifically for this conversation because you've taken exception to my criticisms? My criticism goes where I feel it's deserved. In this case, I can't think of ANY valid reasons for not keep records of spending taxpayer money. I doubt you could either. If you can, please list explain them. Keep in mind, however, that you have a responsibility for responsible opinions...

The Attawapiskat band is at the very least deserving of mockery. Not keeping books for moneys raised by taxpayers and spent by the band is indicative of at least a couple of the following: -Gross Incompetence -Contempt/Arrogance -Corruption You make the choice. Personally, I don't really care which of the following it is.

and yet you still said: That really doesn't make a lot of sense, especially in the context of subsidizing First Nations reserves. The people who are held responsible first for mismanagement and/or fraud are the people who should have caught it earlier? Sorry, but no. The people who are entrusted with the money are the ones responsible for its use/misuse. If proper oversight wasn't being done, the auditors might be held responsible for that, as was Arthur Anderson over their failure to properly audit Enron years ago. In the case of Attawapiskat, however, it was long known that they weren't keeping proper records, but there was little action the government could take against them. You can't cut off funding for a barely surviving community in northern Ontario. The government tried to impose third-party management, but that was struck down. There aren't a lot of options here, but at least now the band's galling arrogance, hypocrisy, incompetence and/or corruption is out in the open and will come back to bite them in the ass. I'd suspect the Idle no More protest, and Theresa Spence's hunger strike start experiencing some headwinds in public opinion moving forward.

You don't know much about the real world, do you? This is pretty basic stuff bud. If you are getting money from the public purse, anyone with half a brain would know that a full accounting of money spent would be required. The Attawapiskat Band, the people getting the money, did not do that. Wherever that money went, it went where they decided it would go, but they felt it wasn't necessary or wouldn't look good to write down where it went. smallc is trying to lead you to the logical conclusion here, but some connections seem to be loose on your end. The Attawapiskat band was warned numerous times to keep better records. They refused to do so. They ended up under third-party co-management because the government deemed they couldn't be trusted to spend the money wisely. The government appears to have been right. Now, after numerous warnings and imposed co-management, SURPRISE: They get audited and millions are missing. Hmmm... Where did the money go? The government has records that it went to the band. The band does not have records where they spent it. Because the First Nations like to pretend they're independent. The indignity of having all of their records carefully scrutinized by the Canadian government just isn't fair or violates their Treaty rights or whatever else they feel like crying about. It's long been the M.O. for the government to send money to the reserves with few/no questions and then let them do their own thing. When they start fussing and protesting etc like Theresa Spence is doing, however, or when humanitarian crises get declared, the government HAS to start looking at where the money was spent. This is going to start a domino effect. I'll bet further investigation into other reserves will find similar 'discrepencies' and the corruption and hypocrisy of the chiefs and their bands will be revealed.

They didn't keep records. That's nobody's fault but the band and the chief. If proper records had been kept, any missing money would be the result of fraud, in which case you can go chasing after the perpetrators. With no records, anything could have happened. At the very best, the band is being run by some combination of incompetent, arrogant morons. At the very worse, we're looking at gross corruption and criminal intent. Regardless, Attawapiskat's credibility is now close to zilch. Sure, the government could have audited the reserves more closely, but this is something that the First Nations protest regularly. They don't like the oversight. Unfortunately, it seems that's the way it has to be. They're clearly not capable/willing to keeping track of the money themselves.

Michael, corporate memory loss is a tongue-in-cheek term. You keep records and receipts of everything when you're dealing with corporate or public money so that staff turnover, which inevitably happens in any organization, doesn't erase the records of the past. The Attawapiskat reserve apparently didn't feel this was necessary, and there's literally zero excuse for that. Canadians should rightly be outraged about this. Here we have this joke of a band indignantly protesting their hoooorrible treatment at the hands of Canadians and basically demanding more money from the government, yet they can't tell us where the money has been going so far, can't prepare or keep a budget and just tell us, "More money please. No questions please." It's a freaking joke.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/07/john-ivison-whatever-the-canadian-state-cedes-to-theresa-spence-it-will-never-be-enough/ At a time where Theresa Spence is righteously crusading for a fatter ride on the gravy train, I found it interesting how little she's held accountable for her band's management of the Attawapiskat reserve. Canadians need to shell out hundreds of millions for a craphole town of 2000 in the middle of nowhere, and it seems that she and her band don't have to tell anyone what the money's for or where it went. Yep...I think I know everything I need to know about this slob.

Assad has already lost. The rebels are in control of most of the country already. There will be no invasion unless it's just a quick in and out to secure dangerous weapons stockpiles.