kuzadd

You just don't get it do you: truthies are considered to be a bunch of raving lunatics by the majority of people. Most posters on this forum think I am wasting my time even responding to your rediculous claims. If you want you arguments to be taken seriously then the onus IS on you to provide an alternate explaination. Deny it if you like but that is the reality. A court room is an artifical environment and the rules of evidence used there do NOT apply. Aluminimum was used in the constructions of the WTC tower and the planes. Alumininium is a combustable metal. IOW - once again you have your facts wrong. Phone calls from passengers from all planes reports arab hijackers. That is evidence. Furthermore, you have ZERO evidence that anyone other than muslim hijackers took over those planes. Provide a plausible alternate explaination and you might have a point. Until then you are blowing a lot of hot air... "You just don't get it do you: truthies are considered to be a bunch of raving lunatics by the majority of people." and so? Is that supposed to PROVE something? IMO, it means zip! Yet, you use it, to justify your righteousness, hilarious! Most people thought, many people, great thinkers, scientists, truthtellers, are "raving lunatics" who are then persecuted or imprisoned and them time shows them to be correct. The only thing that demonstrates IMO, is , that the masses will swallow any swill, from a "leader" be it political /religious etc., In fact, there are reams of human history that demonstrate that! The few that stood up to Hitler were persecuted, but, they were right. The few that stood up to numerous other dictators, Stalin , Mao were persecuted and killed. BUT the MASSES, went along. So by saying that you are demonstrating that the masses, will go along to get along and fail to question authority.?? well, nothing new under the sun, BUT, it doesn't make them right now does it? Do me a favour, stop "wasting your time" you accomplish nothing, I won't be broken up lol editted to add: one is left wondering, given your 'masterful debating skills' (facetious) your 'superior' knowledge (facetious) and the 'ample evidence' (facetious)provided by the Bush admin, why riverwind you resort, to the #1 propoganda device, repeatedly???? Name Calling-giving an idea a bad label-is used to make us reject and condemn the idea without examining the evidence. Those who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative symbol, instead of looking at the available evidence. It's a vestige of the weak, and yet, since you come from the position of 'righteousness' why is it you resort to it????

I am with you gosthacked and somewhere back there, I made a statment in kind "one needs history, an understanding of US foreign policy, a knowledge of oil interests, some understanding of geo-political strategy, and bingo! To NOT question 9/11 and the US govs. involvment is to be willfully blind." which I believe you replied to. Bombs and planes aren't necessary. see above quotation.

Aluminimum was used in the constructions of the WTC tower and the planes. Alumininium is a combustable metal. IOW - once again you have your facts wrong. Wrong Riverwind. Aluminium is non-magnetic and non-combustible, properties invaluable in advanced industries such as electronics or in offshore structures. http://www.world-aluminium.org/production/...properties.html More at the link. Try again, or don't bother and spare us all. Please...aluminium burns and melts. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg1782...nium-burns.html So be sure to remove your hat when outside in the sun. ROFLMAO! absolutely clueless! from riverwind's article "In a large vacuum chamber, aluminium wire is continuously melted, vaporised, and burnt in a stream of oxygen, and deposits a coating of aluminium oxide onto a web of polyethylene terephthalate (PET) film moving past at high speed from reel to reel. Counter-intuitively, the process even improves the vacuum through a "getter" effect, by mopping up any traces of water vapour present" again aluminium wire is continuously melted, vaporised, and burnt in a stream of oxygen, in a stream of oxygen in a stream of oxygen apples and oranges, apples and oranges.

Aluminimum was used in the constructions of the WTC tower and the planes. Alumininium is a combustable metal. IOW - once again you have your facts wrong. Wrong Riverwind. Aluminium is non-magnetic and non-combustible, properties invaluable in advanced industries such as electronics or in offshore structures. http://www.world-aluminium.org/production/...properties.html More at the link. Try again, or don't bother and spare us all. Riverwind doesn't grasp the difference between combustible metal and non-combustible. nor does riverwind understand that combustible metal would NOT be used as a construction material in a highrise, where FIRE is a grave concern. Riverwind has been wrong so many times it is immeasurable.

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/229004 "The United States may be about to do something really stupid, which is to launch a trade war with China. Such a misguided step would do much damage to the world economy and reinforce the view, not only in China but in other emerging market countries, that the United States does not really want them to succeed. Moreover, China would be bound to retaliate. What's driving the "blame China" crusade in the U.S. Congress is itsgrowing trade deficit with China. It's true the United States has a huge trade deficit with China. But the actual deficit is seriously overstated since many Chinese exports consist of parts and materials imported from other countries and simply assembled into finished products in China. Chinese value-added, or content, in its exports is only about 25 per cent of their final price. The real problem the United States has is that it seeks to maximize consumption today and forego savings for the future. The U.S. financial system encourages families to take the equity out of their homes through new mortgages so they can spend more, or to assume even greater levels of other debt for current consumption. You can't blame the Chinese for that. They are supplying American consumers with products Americans want to buy with this extra money. At the same time, the United States has a massive budget deficit that shows no sign of disappearing. Americans are fond of lecturing others on how to behave, as they are now doing with China. But as The Financial Times asked in a recent editorial, "What would Capitol Hill think of a Chinese `get tough' ultimatum, declaring Beijing's patience at an end, requiring immediate action to cap mortgage-interest tax relief and cut public spending, on the pain of sanctions? The reaction would be gibbering, uncomprehending rage. Yet those American policies have seriously destabilizing global implications, just as surely as does China's decision to peg its currency." Perhaps the biggest issue is the U.S. has yet to come to terms with the reality the world is changing and, in relative terms, it is a declining superpower. In fact, acknowledging we are moving into a different world is a problem for all Western countries, including Canada." and so forth and so on............................. read the rest at above link

cybercoma: I'll do you the favour of answering based on the scenario presented in your article. NO, doctors SHOULD NOT be allowed to refuse treatment based on their religious beliefs, why because logically thinking THEIR religious beliefs, are THEIRS.They are not mine, or necessarily yours,they may be shared by no one. therefore they are irrelevant, to the necessity for medical treatment. Treatment should be based on what is necessary to treat the patient in the manner that is BEST for the patient, in the case of this woman, being raped, she REQUESTED the morning after pill, which was the BEST TREATMENT, for her in this case, she knew it , she asked for it and she should have gotten it!

Absurd. The evidence to shows that four planes were hijacked by muslim extremists and crashed them into buildings. You would realize this too if you took the time to put together a plausible alternate explaination because you would find that there is no plausible alternate explaination. "The evidence to shows that four planes were hijacked by muslim extremists and crashed them into buildings." No riverwind, the evidence, does not show that. The evidence, shows that ONE plane, had been hijacked. http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidenc..._transcript.pdf It does not indicate, who or why. There is NO evidence, wrt the other planes, only conjecture and speculation. no recorders were found from the other planes, therfore there is NO evidence. You really do not grasp evidence, do you?

more persecution complex?

lol, is right! BC chick. criticism is criticism is criticism and Israel as a nation state, can be criticized , just as much as any other nation state, and if Israel's government acts in a manner that is outrageous, perhaps, they will garner more criticism then say, Jamaica? That's the way it is, simple as that. All nation states can be criticized as evidenced by criticism of iran nuclear power program. what's good for the goose is good for the gander. It only becomes problematic when some posters cannot ever discuss in a rational manner, and feel, ONLY,and EXCLUSIVELY, Arab countries are deserving of criticism and no other countries are. This is a display of complete irrationality, and BC chick, "persecution complex" is quite good also. "A persecution complex is a term given to an array of psychologically complex behaviours, that specifically deals with the perception of being persecuted, for various possible reasons, imagined or real."

Yah, you never think at all, that is quite clear. vacuous. Does anyone notice, Rue promotes stereotypes of Jewish people relentlessly? The very same one Hitler promoted? of the Rich and Powerful Jew??? read Rue's comments, one will notice it over and over it's odd.

Wow, next you'll hear that the Israelis add blood of Muslims to their Pesach matzohs. sorry, just discussing something out of the book, tough for you! Look at a map. Think about how much aid italy and israel both get from the US. military bases etc., Use some common sense. Oh never mind. "The Italian investigating judge Ferdinando Imposimato asserted in 1982 that the Red Brigades had been infiltrated by the Israeli Mossad no later than 1978. Based on testimony from two jailed former members of the Red Brigades, Imposimato reported that the Mossad had provided the Italian terrorists with weapons, money, and information"

democracy? accountability to the people? NOT! dictatorship, authoritarianism YUP!!!!

Vice President Cheney has bigger balls than "God"...scratch that...Dick Cheney IS GOD! now that is creepy.

Sorry - it doesn't work that way. The overwhleming weight of the evidence available supports the widely accepted explaination. The US government has done its job. If you seek to convince others that the government has not done its job the the ONUS IS ON YOU to provide an alternate explaination. Your are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.The fact that you refuse to provide one demonstrates that are simply blowing a lot of hot air. Why should anyone take you seriously? oh but it does work that way riverwind, despite your incoherent arguements. The burden of proof, was on the US administration. They failed. Everyone should be wondering what then is the reality, and they should be questioning the US administration, not the people who are capable of seeing beyond the BS? Instead, which demonstrates your capacity for the inane, you insist on prosecuting the wrong people. The overwhelming weight of evidence DOES NOT support the official theory, that is why there are SO MANY questions and questioners, but, pfft, that flies right over your head. You are deluding yourself, becasue NO MATTER what you say, bottom line, it was up to the Bush administration, to prove, there conspiracy theory, was true, they failed. Look how quickly you jumped on BC's bandwagon wrt combustible metals, so badly you wish to believe the official story, when BC jumped in to muddy the waters, you jumped in also. NO building would be constructed with combustible metals, that doesn't make sense. Ya know fire codes? But there you were, looking, foolish.

The justice system works on the premise of innocent unless proven guilty. This means the onus is on the prosecution to prove its case beyond reasonable doubt. When some is found innocent by the court that does not mean they did not commit the crime - it simply means the evidence was not enough to prove that beyond all reasonable doubt.This is not the court room. If you expect to be taken serious it is _not_ enough to establish reasonable doubt by pointing out minor inconsistencies in the widely accepted explanation. You _must_ provide an alternate explanation. Failure to do so simply demonstrates that you do not really have an argument and are simply blowing hot air. so you say, but then I find most of what you say, ridiculous anyway. Here again you are creating an arguement, for yourself, to argue. The ONUS or BURDEN of proof is NOT ON ME. It is on the US government. I do not believe the official story, when I look at the EVIDENCE, the official story is not credible. The debate all, along has been about 9/11 and the events surrounding it. The story doesn't hold up, from begining to end! That is that! I do not have to provide alternative scenarios, the BURDEN OF PROOF lies with the American gov. They failed! You wish to unflinchingly believe, and be willfully blind, by all means entertain yourself.

Not good enough. Something did happen on that day. The widely accepted explanation may not be 100% proven but it is the _only_ explanation that makes sense given the evidence that is available.I see I was right about you refusing to offer an alternate explanation. Your response simply demonstrates how weak your arguments are and why no one should take you seriously. Why don't you go away and some homework and come back with a plausible alternate explaination. We can compare that to the 'official' explaination and see which makes most sense. lol, I think it is you that needs to go away and do homework! It is not up to me to provide anything. Ever been in court? I have. The prosecuter puts forth a case, the defence pokes giant holes in the case , taking away from the credibility and probability of the prosecutors case, thereby rendering the scenario implausible/questionable. Thereby influencing the outcome of the case. I am explaining in the most basic terms to you so you can understand. The US government put forth a case that is not credible, full of holes, highly questionable. Your example of Arab hijackers, as I stated indicates presence but not identity, you still think this is acceptable, BUT, it's not, here's why..... non-identifying of specific individuals, is the biggest problem! how do you know they had a grudge? Perhaps it was a military mission? who knows? why do you ASSUME what you do? In fact you can't KNOW that, it's not possible, this is what you were told, so you beleive it. How do you know what if any country they were associated with? (to justify the attack on Afhgnistan) How about if they were American Muslims? Second generation, raised in there native tongue speak with an accent. So how exactly how do YOU know who the hijackers were, who or if they had backers? what countries if any were they associated with? YOU CAN'T! and the US government, never provided that proof. Demand that proof of them!

Wrong again - the outer facade of the WTC was aluminium and so were the planes that crashed into them. not the stuff I am referring to. nor is it the stuff BC is referring to. AND you should have READ what I had wrote, the line before what you quoted "COMBUSTIBLE metal fires, right BC? such as sodium, lithium, manganese and aluminium " too bad as usual, you don't bother. Thermite is aluminum powder are you suggesting an incendiary device.? http://www.oseh.umich.edu/combmet.html Combustible Metals* Do you have any combustible metals or combustible metal compounds in your laboratory? IThe following is a list of combustible metals that require a type D fire extinguisher: calcium cerium cesium lithium lutetium magnesium and magnesium alloys neodymium phosphorus potassium potassium-sodium alloys rubidium sodium strontium aluminum (powder) beryllium (powder) nickel catalyst (Raney) titanium (powder) zinc (powder) zirconium (powder) aluminum phosphide calcium carbide gallium arsenide gallium phosphide lithium aluminum deuteride lithium aluminum hydride lithium aluminum hydride bis(tetrahydrofuran) lithium amide lithium borohydride lithium-6 deuteride lithium hydride lithium tetraphenylborate tris(1,2-dimethoxyethane) lithium tri-tert-butoxyaluminohydride magnesium hydride phosphorus pentasulfide potassium hydride Red-Al sodium aluminum hydride sodium bis(2-methoxyethoxy)aluminum hydride in toluene sodium borohydride sodium borohydride cobalt-doped sodium borohydride on alumina sodium hydride zinc phosphide

Oh i read exactly what you said, you said you said we really don't care who they were. That is incredible! You said That is incredible! I belive the official conspiracy theory is full of holes, that is EXACTLY what I believe, don't like it, too bad! You notice I use the "truthie" blah, blah, blah... wanna talk about promoting propaganda, that's all you are doing! Stop using "truthie" (name calling) #1 propaganda device, read up on it! (oops forgot, you don't read) You use it in a quest to discredit me. You discredit yourself and the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 OBL is relevant, but, he is not wanted by the FBI OBL dead or alive, BUT, he is chartering private jets EIGHT DAYS after the attacks. Along with all the other baloney....... You wanna talk propaganda? You promote it, despite the KNOWN FACTS. The US government has NOT provided EVIDENCE. Demand the evidence of them. My opinion is this, the official story is not the truth.

Wrong again....metal fires can actually create oxidant from water or CO2 because they burn so hot...this is typically seen with magnesium fires. It is incorrect to make such a blanket statement about all fires. COMBUSTIBLE metal fires, right BC? such as sodium, lithium, manganese and aluminium but it is correct, wrt this fire. Which was structural steel, and office equipment. despite your distraction, your arguement is flawed, in this case. Unless you are bolstering the claim of an incendiary devices presence?

I don't think, Israel, like the US would prefer to operate within a peaceful world, or neither country would go to such great lengths, to foment war. Interestingly I have been reading the book "Puppetmasters" oh what a tangled web we weave! In the book, Mossad, had contacted terrorist groups in Italy (Red Brigades), as the interest in destabilizing italy was present and beneficial to Israel, so that Israel, could be the "most stable ally" in the region of the ME. One has to look at everything from the INTERESTS of the country. There are a great many reasons why/how Israel benefits from the instability around it.

The individuals were speaking Arabic. The phone calls from the passengers confirmed that middle eastern/arabs hijacked the the planes. The voice recorders also indicate that they men were trying to crash the plane. All of of that leaves only one rational conclusion: the planes were hijacked by Muslim extremists. We don't really care who the indiviudals were. I hate to break it to you but the involvement of Bin Laden has nothing to do with establishing what happened on 9/11. You are trying to claim that the US government was involved however the presence of Muslim hijackers on the planes effectively eliminates that as a possibility. These extremists were likely assisted by someone and Bin Laden is a reasonable guess. If you want to claim that the US government sponsored Muslim suicide pilots then you will have to come up with something that actually resembles evidence. So far you have nothing more than conjecture and wishful thinking. This conjecture might be interesting if it actually presumed that the government plotters were rational. Unfortunately, all of your hypotheses that presume that the government plotters were simultaneously complete idiots and incredible geniuses. Such a combination does not exists in reality. we don't really care who the individuals were??? Riverwind? seriously? who committed that murder, oh, we don't care, any " caucasion" will do? any "african american" will do? it doesn't matter, let's just blame anyone! That is in effect exactly what you are saying! I don't wish to claim anything except that the official conspiracy theory is so full of holes, that gale force winds are blowing through it, and your helping with your over the top claims. OBL, it doesn't matter? who the hijackers REALLY were it doesn't matter? You are demonstrating a frightful fanatacism, in the face of very big questions. And again, you are creating your own arguements......

Hate to break it to you riverwind, men in the cockpit, does NOT identify which men, it only identifies the presence of individuals, NOT who the individuals are. OBL is irrelevant?? But he 'claimed' responsibility for 9/11?? But the taliban refused to give him up for 9/11 ??? http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/17/bush.powell.terrorism/ Bush: bin Laden 'prime suspect' WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Osama bin Laden is the "prime suspect" in last Tuesday's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and the United States wants to capture him , President Bush said Monday. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../18/wbush18.xml Bin Laden is wanted: dead or alive, says Bush For your amusement and future reference, here's what Bush has said about bin Laden at various points in time, depending on how he was trying to spin things: "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." - G.W. Bush, 9/13/01 "I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'" - G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI "...Secondly, he is not escaping us. This is a guy, who, three months ago, was in control of a county [sic]. Now he's maybe in control of a cave. He's on the run. Listen, a while ago I said to the American people, our objective is more than bin Laden. But one of the things for certain is we're going to get him running and keep him running, and bring him to justice. And that's what's happening. He's on the run, if he's running at all. So we don't know whether he's in cave with the door shut, or a cave with the door open -- we just don't know...." - Bush, in remarks in a Press Availablity with the Press Travel Pool, The Prairie Chapel Ranch, Crawford TX, 12/28/01, as reported on official White House site BUT, it turns out OBL is NOT wanted by the FBI, for 9/11. OBL charters a plane out of the US , eight days after , to fly BinLaden family members out of the US. The man who started the war on terror, "dead or alive" blah, blah, blah.... keep believing, like I said , it's like a freaky cult following, there is NO reason to believe the official conspiracy theory, none , nadda, zip, zero. It's clearly bogus from the start, starting with OBL.

Ok, here we have a very specific claim... that Molten Metal wasn't covered by the NIST report. Yet 30 seconds and google found this: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm (see section 11): NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid...NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius. Now, even if kuzadd didn't believe the NIST and their assesment of the molten material, his claim was that it "wasn't noted" at all is quite false. Furthermore, if this is indicative of his inability to get such basic 'facts' stright, then you have to wonder just what else he's gotten wrong. (Obviously quite a lot, but we'll start with that.) Imagine my surprise to see you, not! TO CLARIFY: The molten metal I was referring to, was cooking away in the basements of the buildings, and was evident, during clean-up. This was not addressed, in the NIST report what feeds a fire? what stokes it? what makes things burn hotter? the one thing that would NOT have been readily available at the BOTTOM of the debris pile, six stories underground, beneath hundreds of thousands of tons of debris? OXYGEN. oh, sorry that's basic science and logic, that should be realized by people with common sense, that the bottom of the debris pile, six stories underground, under hundreds of thousands of tons of rubble, would be smothered, in oxygen deprived conditions. common sense, people, common knowledge. fire consumes oxygen to feed itself. therefore fire sixty feet underground, buried under hundreds of thousand of tons of rubble , would be quickly oxygen deprived and unable to fuel itself. common sense, not nonsense!

We don't need more regurgitated American sources thank you very much. Frankly, PolyNewbie did a much better job at that sort of "me-too" thing. Where is the proof? Please articulate the elements of any offenses that you can support with evidence, so that indictments and trials may begin at once. http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2007/...%20Docs%202.pdf here's a link to the PDF file from judicial watch. "We don't need more regurgitated American sources thank you very much." Why, BC, cause you say so? You the boss? How about government documentation? there in the pdf, you can read it, ok? terrible posting the FBI website, just more 'regurgitated American sorces" lol lol BC at his weakest, offering up condemnation of FBI websites ad Judicial watch, I guess those are "truthie sites" eh?? lol! Your gov. provided NO CONCRETE proof, you invaded Afghanistan to get OBL, for 9/11, but the FBI doesn't even want him for that. Where is the proof, BC? Where is it? I would like to know also!!! The US gov., sure didn't provide any. Where is it BC??? Where is it??? The US gov. let's the Binladen's out, inc., that Binladen himself may have chartered the flights. and what do you have, condemnation of judicial watch and FBI website useage, bogus claims of incompetence, as justification for your own arguement. keep on dancin'

Then this the other day, documents from Judicial watch http://judicialwatch.org/6322.shtml Judicial Watch Releases New FBI Documents: Osama bin Laden May Have Chartered Saudi Flight Out of U.S. after 9/11 (Washington, DC) -- Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, today released new documents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (“FBI”) related to the “expeditious departure” of Saudi nationals, including members of the bin Laden family, from the United States following the 9/11 attacks. According to one of the formerly confidential documents, dated 9/21/2001, terrorist Osama bin Laden may have chartered one of the Saudi flights. Just 8 days after the attack, private chartered jets, flying out of the US, chartered by possibly OBL!?? Apparently the possiblility of OBL chartering private jets out of the US was not a great big concern. U.S. District Court Judge Richard W. Roberts ordered the FBI to resubmit “proper disclosures” to the Court and Judicial Watch, having previously criticized the adequacy of redaction descriptions, the validity of exemption claims, and other errors in the FBI’s disclosures. Incredibly, the FBI had previously redacted Osama bin Laden’s name from the records in order “to protect privacy interests.” The latest version of the FBI documents, obtained under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act and through ongoing litigation (Judicial Watch v. Department of Homeland Security & Federal Bureau of Investigation, No. 04-1643 (RWR)) is available below. bwah, ha ha!!!!! another 'coincidence', no , no , more 'incompetence' as if?! Like I said the official conspiracy theory , is non-credible, completely. It's like cultish faith?. Or brainwashing? or a psy-op?