kuzadd

Riverwind, riverwind....... the blackboxes should have been recovered, but, if one believes the crash was so devastating the fires so hot, then there isn't a way in heck the passport would miraculously survive. You want to know the way 9/11 could have been conducted within the context of factions within a government, in collusion with other governments, NATO, and private business and individuals??? ( strategy of tension) Read the two books, it's all there. IMO, though Riverwind, "it'll rock" your delusion of a neat little orderly world. little article on this extensive topic. http://www.answers.com/topic/strategy-of-tension strategy of tension (Italian: strategia della tensione) is a way to control and manipulate public opinion using fear, propaganda, disinformation, psychological warfare, agents provocateurs, as well as false flag terrorist actions (including bombings). According to historian Daniele Ganser, "It is a tactic which consists in committing bombings and attributing them to others. By the term 'tension' one refers to emotional tension, to what creates a sentiment of fear. By the term 'strategy' one refers to what feeds the fear of the people towards one particular group" [1]. The term was coined in Italy during the trials that followed the 1970s and 1980s years of lead, during which terror attacks and assassinations committed by neofascist terrorists (such as Ordine Nuovo, Avanguardia Nazionale or Fronte Nazionale) were committed. The terrorists were backed by intelligence agencies, the P2 masonic lodge and Gladio, a NATO secret "stay-behind" army officially set up to perform guerilla and resistance activities should Italy be successfully invaded by the Soviet bloc (there were equivalent armies in most Western states). Unmonitored by civilian agencies, Gladio members began to pursue their own right wing, anti-communist agenda using violent means, which included false flag bombings, blamed on extra-parliamentary left-wing militant organizations. Examples include the 1972 Peteano bombing, long thought to have been carried out by the Red Brigades, but for which the neofascist terrorist Vincenzo Vinciguerra has been imprisoned, the attempted assassination of former Interior Minister Mariano Rumor on 17 May 1973 or the 1980 Bologna massacre. The aim of these actions was to make the public believe that the bombings were committed by a communist insurgency, to promote the formation of an authoritarian government, and to prevent the strong Italian Communist Party (PCI) from joining the ruling Democrazia Cristiana (DC) in a national unity government (the "historical compromise" between Aldo Moro and Enrico Berlinguer, respective leaders of the PCI and of the DC). An astonishing observation of the terrorism in Italy that was blamed on communists is that it coincided with election victories for the communists at the polls. So as the PCI was gaining popular support, the number of civilian-targeted bombings, random knee-cappings, and high-profile kidnappings blamed on communist terrorists increased markedly. Furthermore, starting with the 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing and the 1972 Peteano attack, several bombings carried out by the far-right were at first blamed on anarchists (for the first one) and, for the second one, on the Red Brigades (BR) — although it was later found that neofascists, such as Vincenzo Vinciguerra, had organized them. 1-Piazza Fontana's bombing, in December 1969, marked the beginning of the "strategia della tensione", which ended around the time of the Bologna railway station bombing in 1980. In 2000, a Parliamentary report from the Olive Tree coalition concluded that the strategy of tension followed by Gladio had been supported by the United States to "stop the PCI, and to a certain degree also the PSI, from reaching executive power in the country". Members of the Democratic Party of the Left (PDS), part of the Commission on Terrorism headed by senator Giovanni Pellegrino and created in 1988, have described the Italian peninsula since the end of World War II as a "country with 'limited sovereignty'" and as an "American colony" [2] Piazza Fontana bombing 2-Bombing of Italicus train, August 4, 1974 August 4, 1974, 12 died and 105 were injured in the bombing of the train Italicus Roma-Brennero express at San Benedetto Val di Sambro. 3-1974 Piazza della Loggia bombing in Brescia 4-Bologna railway bombing, August 2, 1980 5-Assassination of General Dalla Chiesa General Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa's murder, in 1982, by the mafia in Palermo is allegedly part of the strategy of tension. Alberto Dalla Chiesa had arrested Red Brigades founders Renato Curcio and Alberto Franceschini in September, 1974, and was later charged of investigation concerning Christian democrat leader Aldo Moro, assassinated in 1978. Role of Italian Intelligence Services In 1974, Vito Miceli, P2 member, chief of the SIOS (Servizio Informazioni), Army Intelligence's Service from 1969 and SID's head from 1970 to 1974, was arrested on charges of "conspiration against the state" concerning investigations about Rosa dei venti, a state-infiltrated group involved in terrorist acts. In 1977, the secret services were reorganized in a democratic attempt. With law #801 of 24/10/1977, SID was divided into SISMI (Servizio per le Informazioni e la Sicurezza Militare), SISDE (Servizio per le Informazioni e la Sicurezza Democratica) and CESIS (Comitato Esecutivo per i Servizi di Informazione e Sicurezza). The CESIS has a coordination role, led by the President of Council. Others Other examples include the Turkish branch of Gladio, Counter-Guerrilla, who followed a similar strategy in Turkey, leading to the 1980 military coup. Operation Condor in South America and events in Algeria during the 1990s. Stefano Delle Chiaie apparently had a hand in both what was happening in Italy and with Operation Condor, as he as met with Michael Townley (a US expatriate, DINA agent). It has been claimed that Delle Chiaie was involved in the murder of General Carlos Prats in Buenos Aires, Argentina on September 30 1974. Delle Chiaie, along with fellow extremist Vincenzo Vinciguerra, also testified in Rome in December 1995 before judge María Romilda Servini de Cubría that Enrique Arancibia Clavel (a former Chilean secret police agent prosecuted for crimes against humanity in 2004 [2]) and Michael Townley were directly involved in this assassination.[3]. The article has extensive links, but, it is a drop in the bucket, to information available, you know , factual historical information. Imagine Riverwind the Italian gov, in collusion with the America gov and private factions inc. terrorist groups conspired to kill and terrorize the people of Italy, for 45 yrs and no one said a word, starting in 1940's until finally, this craziness was exposed in 2000. and even then?????And other countries also, As above Turkey, even DeGaulle (france)had a big issue, with the left-behind armies and NATO,CIA collusion, he saw them as destabilizing forces. He was right. (9/11 could easily have been pulled off, in this same manner, heck it worked all that time, in numerous countries and no one said a word, while people died and were terrorized) Did you know even at that time, the US was flying ME citizens ( Arab) into Italy, for terrorist training, at a CIA base in Italy? Get some facts and some history.

That would depend on the exact story line. If you claim, as many truthies do, that the planes themselves were faked then you have hundreds of collaborators were on each of those planes and at the alleged crash sites. No truth seekers that I know of, postulate the "planes were faked". Nadda one, zip, zero, zilch. Must be something put out by PopularMechanics , lol!

You're kidding me! This is nothing short of Orwellian thought-crimes. I am not kidding you. I'll give you a link to an interview, where he says it himself, plus, if you wanna hear, how knowledgable this guy is???? http://www.gunsandbutter.net/archives.php?page=2 Listen Now.. Biowarfare and the Emergence of Police State America Interview with author and professor of international law, Dr. Francis Boyle. The history of biological warfare development and the Biological Weapons Convention; forced anthrax inoculations of the military; anthrax attacks on congress and the resultant Patriot legislation setting up a police state; FBI agent Marion "Spike" Bowman's thwarting of FBI investigations into both Zacarias Moussaoui and the anthrax attacks on congress; the DNC's prevention of impeachment proceedings against Bush and others in his administration for high crimes and misdemeanors. I have relistened to this interview numerous times, it is quite interesting.

You need to learn some basic logic. Stating that some governments at some time time have used terrorism for political purposes does not add anything to a discussion about whether the WTC towers were blown up by the government.If it was an inside job then someone would have blown the whistle by now. Secrets that big have a way of coming out - that is especially true given that a large number of people have a vested interest in discrediting GWB. In addition, the deafening silence from the scientific community illustrates how little scientific merit the truthie arguments have. If there was any merit then there would be respected scientists from around the world lining up to expose the 'crime of the century'. For that reason I see little difference between evangelical Christians who believe that dinosaurs and man co-existed and people who believe the US government blew up the WTC towers. Both beliefs are fantasies driven by the irrational fears and anxieties of the believers. would you get off the "logic" kick, I've debated 9/11 with you, to be blunt, you don't have a clue. despite your pompousness. read the book, learn something. No one would have blown the whistle,by now. no one did in italy, get it and get over that bogus aspersion. Anyone who even came remotely close to letting any info loose, died! A closed mind is a wasted mind. Wanna learn something , get the book and the one about NATO, read them.

That all you've got to say? Well I won't bother with you until you've at least provide something to back up your claim. Sorry hon, in a forum such as this, we don't seriously argue about someone's fantasy. This comedy is getting a bit stale....so see ya later. like your fanatasy betsy? yet, there you keep going. The one where you post opinion pieces, and pass them off as facts, or proof? Please, come back when you have something of substance to prove OBL is religious. That's your contention. oh and I do love the added condenscending tone, it adds to the hilarity of it all, for me. Does it help you feel superior, when you can't actually prove, OBL is a religious man. How could you really though, except through rhetorical nonsense??? I'll let GWB do the talking about OBL, I always love this stuff! http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20020313-8.html Q Mr. President, in your speeches now you rarely talk or mention Osama bin Laden. Why is that? Also, can you tell the American people if you have any more information, if you know if he is dead or alive? Final part -- deep in your heart, don't you truly believe that until you find out if he is dead or alive, you won't really eliminate the threat of -- THE PRESIDENT: Deep in my heart I know the man is on the run, if he's alive at all. Who knows if he's hiding in some cave or not; we haven't heard from him in a long time. And the idea of focusing on one person is -- really indicates to me people don't understand the scope of the mission. Terror is bigger than one person. And he's just -- he's a person who's now been marginalized. His network, his host government has been destroyed. He's the ultimate parasite who found weakness, exploited it, and met his match. He is -- as I mentioned in my speech, I do mention the fact that this is a fellow who is willing to commit youngsters to their death and he, himself, tries to hide -- if, in fact, he's hiding at all. So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you. I'm more worried about making sure that our soldiers are well-supplied; that the strategy is clear; that the coalition is strong; that when we find enemy bunched up like we did in Shahikot Mountains, that the military has all the support it needs to go in and do the job, which they did. And there will be other battles in Afghanistan. There's going to be other struggles like Shahikot, and I'm just as confident about the outcome of those future battles as I was about Shahikot, where our soldiers are performing brilliantly. We're tough, we're strong, they're well-equipped. We have a good strategy. We are showing the world we know how to fight a guerrilla war with conventional means. Q But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive? THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban. except here in the speech Bush lies, OBL had taken over NO country, nadda one , zip zero , zilch. Just rhetoric and spin and BS passed off as facts, eh Betsy.

Yeah-yeah-yeah....they hate western interference....so does other little struggling countries along the way. What else is new. Odd thing though, it's only these terrorists from Muslim countries and their Muslim sympathisers who seem to have big problems with anger management. To the point of self-igniting and self-combusting! Talk about exploding with anger! Must be in the water they drink. Nice try anyway, Kuzadd! actually what is laughable, is you passing off an OPINION piece as fact. So personal opinions only count when you say so? now that is a nice try....anyway.

actually dear betsy, I answered your questions, look, they are there. You don't like? can't understand? I guess my answers could seem vague in light of your confused statements and somewhat nonsensical aspersions. Clarify? here's my answer to gosthacked question, right off the top "In other words, they don't hate "us", they hate Western government interference, though I prefer, resent, and it's totally understandeable" As for OBL, pure nonsense, that he is religious, he may use religion to manipulate, rather like Pat Robertson of James Dobson, or Tim Lehay. He is a rich Saudi, dear family friends of the Bush's are the BinLaden's a CIA operative who has fought TO THE BENEFIT of the US. In Afghanistan and in Bosnia, for starters. He is not even wanted by the FBI for 9/11. And GWB says he is just not important wrt 9/11 any surprise there?

Perhaps you should take a visit to the creation museum in Kentucky. You will no doubt find a lot of like minded people who believe the most incredible things even though the overwhelming weight of evidence suggests they are completely wrong... Riverwind, I suggest you read a book, called Puppetmasters- the Political use of terrorism in italy. Then another one about NATO. I've posted the link here previously. Then, look into the investigations conducted by the Italian government,FINALLY after 45 yrs, of terrorism inflicted on the people of Italy, inc. the killing of Aldo Moro, numerous bombings, inc, trains, the downing of a plane, and more, much more. You wanna know how 9/11 could be pulled off, with political complicity, complicity of big business, NATO, and other parties??( In the case of italy, the CIA, NATO, factions within the italian gov and big business and of course the mafia) It will shock your panties off, I guarantee it. Then read about how these same types of terror campaigns were conducted in other countries, with gov. in collusion with the American gov (CIA) against there own populations. 9/11 is 'the strategy of tension' and nothing more.

Since your statement is contradicting the research article I've posted, can you provide a source in support of your statement? OBL is religious like Donuts are low cal, it's pretty straightforward. He ain't religious.

betsy' date='Jun 17 2007, 11:32 AM' post='229820 I'm speaking of your fear. The superiority of our societies? The superpower of the US? You confuse and simplify alot of issues. You also let your imagination run away with you baloney. if that was the case, there sure as heck wouldn't be many people in the ME or kids. speaking of despotic countries, how many does the US prop up??? laughter at how self-deluded some of us are. I am sure you are not.

why how much wealth and power do you have?

bigger *sigh* pot - black and then some you are a hypocrite cat, your doing the same thing here as you did in the other forum you got closed down. You started this maybe the moderator will finish it for you. When does Kuzadd come riding to the rescue LOL wow, you even drag, your nonsense from one political forum to another?? come on?! If I am not participatory here, which I haven't been till now, leave me out of your foolishness.

wrt the passport story: Also CNN reports: "In New York, several blocks from the ruins of the World Trade Center, a passport authorities said belonged to one of the hijackers was discovered a few days ago, according to city Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik." (Bernard Kerik, dirty side-kick of Guliani) How the passport survived, when it was in the passengers possession, on the plane?? But the black boxes didn't survive. wrt to blackboxes at wtc :U.S. Lawmakers Push Plan to Upgrade 'Black Boxes' Air Safety Week, July 28, 2003 Disaster: World Trade Center attacks. American Airlines Flight 11, United Airlines Flight 175. Sept. 11, 2001. FDR Re-covered: No CVR Re-covered: No Notes: Never found in subsequent removal of towers' wreckage.

actually, didn't Atta's will , get 'recovered' in an airport parking lot?? So you would , go off, to do a 'mission' but, bring your will along ?, leave it in the airport parking in a car? How convenient to tie, people to places. Most people keep there will, in safety deposit box, lawyers office, generally locked up safe, for when it is needed. Can we say "planted evidence" ?

OBL , is religious, like donuts are low-cal!

Fear? it seems the 'west' is more full of fear. Envy? well that would have to imply, something to be envious of? what would that be? our freedom? well we have less and less of that all the time, spying, wiretapping, no-fly lists, cameras everywhere to take our pictures, in Britian that includes people to shout at you. our 'moral superiority'? hilarious our 'christian ways'? more hilarity well I am not getting the envy......................

capricorn: religion is used in the west to brainwash, as equally as it is in the ME. I am glad you didn't dispute that basic fact (west pilfering resources) and no it certainly is not a modern day occurence. But how and why do you think this has gone on for so long? How do you think the general population has gone along with the wars for conquest, empire, resources etc., when largely it is NOT in the interest of the general population??? It's the general poulation's kids that die, and fight, we don't get rich from it, everything is sold back to us at a premium, (see recent price of gas) our taxes support the war machines, that we pay for, when we would rather as a populace see the money better spent. etc., etc., Terrorism will never be defeated, it's always been around and always will be around, it will never be defeated. Terrorism's history is as old as mankind .To believe otherwise is to be duped, sorry, but that's the way it is. Yes, the west is using FEAR, to get the population to go along, with it's imperial adventure. When one gives over one's own security to it's government, to "keep us safe" we are in big trouble, big, big trouble. For governments have been the biggest killers of their own populace. see: Democide Ask yourself this questions: If not for the oil, would the west ever have meddled in the ME??? If not for oil in the ME, do you think, everytime a progressive, democratically elected government was chosen by the people of the ME, the West, would have gone in and aided in the overthrow of that government? When the Brit Empire dominated the ME, they feared the people of the ME would get it together and control their own oil, so they continually demonized them at home, conquered/controlled them in the ME , generally applied the strategy of divide and conquer, toward the populace, in order to keep them subjugated. As the US is doing now.

This has ZERO to do with religion, unless one is "brainwashed" by religion to think so. This is pure demonization of a group of people to justify attacking them, that's all there is to it. "They" don't hate "us" They are us! We are them We are all human beings. Anyone who plays the relgion card is foolish, plain and simple. The west wants control of the ME resources,etc., they have to give the people of the west an enemy/boogeyman, to justify there imperial invasions. That's it in a nutshell, no religion required.

Yah, and you hate them because they are. which is BTW, totally irrational. I see you buy into 'divide and conquer' quite nicely. Do you enjoy the subjugation? We are trying to have a discussion here. Your comment has nothing to do with the discussion at all. It's purely a personal attack. It derails the conversation. And it lowers the standard of this forum. If you've got nothing relevant to add, move aside! oh yes, my words do have alot to do with the discussion, regardless of what you say. Scottsa: "They hate us because we're not Islamic." he played the 'religion' card right off the bat, did you miss it? or gloss over it? Clearly he hates them because they are that religion, for one reason. Because they are NOT like us (white christian) it's not a personal attack so , since you had nothing to add, but to "attack" my opinion, maybe you should "move aside"?

more baloney................... do you ever regurgitate facts? or just spew nonsense? http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...,702062,00.html "The Yusuf Islam incident earlier this week, in which the former Cat Stevens was denied entry into the U.S. when federal officials determined he was on the government's "no-fly" antiterror list, started with a simple spelling error. According to aviation sources with access to the list, there is no Yusuf Islam on the no-fly registry, though there is a "Youssouf Islam." The incorrect name was added to the register this summer, but because Islam's name is spelled "Yusuf" on his British passport, he was allowed to board a plane in London bound for the U.S. The Transportation Safety Administration alleges that Islam has links to terrorist groups, which he has denied; British foreign minister Jack Straw said the TSA action "should never have been taken." ok, now let's move on.

Yah, and you hate them because they are. which is BTW, totally irrational. I see you buy into 'divide and conquer' quite nicely. Do you enjoy the subjugation?

In other words, they don't hate "us", they hate Western government interference, though I prefer, resent, and it's totally understandeable,

His incident may have been different for he was using a new Muslim name when buying the ticket. He converted to Islam some time ago. This is the reason he was on the no fly list. Not because he was 'Cat Stevens'. He will always be Cat Stevens to me. So what if he was using a Muslim name, or had converted to Islam? it's irrelevant. He wasn't a terrorist. The only thing that indicates is, have a "muslim name " or a muslim sounding name and your on the terrorist list. Hey we did this in WW2, with the Japanese people, why repeat the same mistakes?

oh yah, and there was the singer Cat Stevens ! "Ride on the Peace Train", oh no Cat Stevens, you ain't going anywhere.

of course it's ridiculous, and is intended to make 'certain' people lives miserable, Like constitutional lawyers, and people who are democrats and people who disagree with GWB. But terrorists? LOL. Yeah sure! "Walter F. Murphy, the McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence, Emeritus, at Princeton University, attempted to check his luggage at the curbside in Albuquerque before boarding a plane to Newark, New Jersey. Murphy was told he could not use the service. "I was denied a boarding pass because I was on the Terrorist Watch list," he said. When inquiring with a clerk why he was on the list, Murphy was asked if he had participated in any peace marches. "We ban a lot of people from flying because of that," a clerk said." or how about???? Dr Francis A Boyle,Professor of International Law, University of Illinois Francis A. Boyle is a leading American professor, practitioner and advocate of international law. He was responsible for drafting the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989, the American implementing legislation for the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention. He served as Legal Advisor to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations from 1991 to 1993, served on the Board of Directors of Amnesty International (1988-1992), and represented Bosnia-Herzegovina at the World Court. Professor Boyle teaches international law at the University of Illinois, Champaign and is author of, inter alia, 'Palestine, Palestinians and International Law', 'The Criminality of Nuclear Deterrence', 'Defending Civil Resistance Under International Law', 'The Future of International Law and American Foreign Policy', 'Foundations of World Order: The Legalist Approach to International Relations 1898-1921', and 'The Bosnian People Charge Genocide'. Francis A. Boyle holds a Doctor of Law Magna Cum Laude as well as a Ph.D. in Political Science, both from Harvard University. ( i heard him interviewed, he's on the terrorist watch list) dam those terrorists!