KrustyKidd

OK. I will leave the harmless and peace stuff for history. In the here and now however, it has been hijacked by some pretty screwed up violent fundementalists. The face of Islam is not peace. No matter what you say, no matter what it actually is, the face of Islam is a burning sword trying to smite the unbeliever.

I tried to ask this hypothetical question to Nuclear awhile back but I guess it got lost in the shuffle. I offer it now to all; Suppose, in a hypothetical new world it was decreed that abortion was illegal but infacide up to one year old was OK by law. Clinics were set up for women to take their infants to and have them put down. Would you do something illegal to stop it? One suggestion I made was a realiviely harmless one of snatching the babies out of the arms of the mothers and take them to the local adoption agency. What action, if any would you take?

Anybody in a tracked vehicle undergoes training. This involves everything from changing tracks to lightbulbs. As for comparing US to CDN military you are both right. When I got in during the late 70's my US counterparts were slightly less disiplined and were as lost said "specialized." We did well against them on exercises through motivation and manuverability. They slowely got better getting rid of drunks, druggies and demanding higher calibre of individuals in their all volenteer army. We did the same. As for the high tech and all that, I'd like to cite one example that is quite interesting. We were in Ft Bliss near El Paso, 700 Paratroopers augmenting an armored car regiment of 5,000 against a 35,000 US desert division. These guys had it all, dune buggys with jammers, a smoke battalion to decieve the enemy into thinking there was a tank division moving. It was unreal. Tehy were everywhere looking for us and tuning the airwaves for our transmissions and our location. We were dug in, moved at night spread out so we could use cover. 700 guys finding their own water so resupply trains wern't used and detected We had a plan and stuck to it and captured their command post five times that way. They learned a lot from us and that is that technology is not the living end. Maybe saved a lot of lives in the Middle East too.

You too should see my other post in the American Patriotism thread in the US Politics Forum. It relates to exactly how the Israeli started the most recent conflict by opening fire on rioting Palestinians, mostly teenage children. You have a point in saying that they purposefully minimize the explosive power, but that is because they don't need to. How much of an explosion do you need to kill a large amount of people? Not very much. A few bombs/missiles here and there and you can take out a whole city. Yes, they are taking military action against those who attack her... those who attack her with rocks! Then they respond with automatic rifles and platoons. The real reason the Palestinians carry out their style of warfare is because any other kind would be useless and they are desperate, not because they are more malicious than the Israeli. Free Palestine! Spare me the kleenex SVP. Kids and rocks are responded to with rubber bullets and sometimes bullets. I've had rocks thrown at me in the Old City, pretty scary stuff. This however is not what we were talking about when saying minimizing explosive power. It was rather when Israel targets the goon (s) who sent the latest adolesent to meet Allah along with doctors, kids, mothers and whoever else is evil enough to cross the Palistinian people by trying to live a normal life. If terror was the motive then you want to know all of Gaza would be levelled in an hour. Terrorism, nice try. At worst it's a miscalibration of the amount of explosive needed to kill one or two murdereres who are hiding behind women and children after they have killed their own and Israels children in a suicide attack. I think that you will find that I am evenly balanced however I am somewhat realistic. For example, it really does not matter who owned what and when and who God promised what to and how many of who got killed when. The situation is that Israel occupies a certain amount of land and they are not going anywhere. Palistinians on the other hand occupy a shithole and are also not going anywhere. Why and when matters only to those who live in the past, reality is that these people have to get together. Israel tries time and time again and each time Hamas kills innocents. Israel responds by leveling the homes of the bombers and the mothers get (or used to) $25 grand from Saddam. Most people refer to the above as a cycle of violence but to be a cycle it must continue through the revolution. Israel reacts by taking out the leadership of Hamas for a purpose other than mindless violence - prevention of further attacks from that cell. Ever notice they don't just drop a bloody nuke and take out all the followership? Course not, because you listen to rhetoric and that is what your arguments are; rhetoric. Take a cue from Black Dog, at least he has a grip on what is going on and comes up with solutions other than the party line.

Good post BD. I agree wholeheartedly with you. However, once again cold hard reality gets in the way of a perfect world. The gestation period this would take is decades if not generations, individually how would an Israeli take the loss of a loved on everynow and then so the Palisinians can have the opportunity to "work out these personal issues" or "get on board the soul train?" Remember, in comparisson the ninteen people killed in last week's attack would be like America suffering 1,900 dead. Almost the equivilent of the WTC. The PLO was given the opportunity to enforce itself and used the weapons against Israel, currently there is no attempt by the leadership in Palistine to curb the terrorists. A change in leadership within the PA is necessary then followed by dismanteling of Hamas and Holy Jumpin whatever then enact your plan. The leadership perpetuates this animosity to stay in charge, they are the cancer in this operation.

Back in the eighties we tested a square freefall chute called the CT3. Spent two years but not a heck of a lot of money. After that we gave the contract to Grimm Industries who previously had never made a square parachute. They did this at the cost of something like $5 grand a pop. Couple years later we had square chutes. The Americans had been using them for over ten years and even had steerable remotes for the extra equipment like motorcycles and extra ammo. We were still relying on "follow the cylinder" and hope it lands in a good spot as that's where you're going too. Theyt produced these at a cost of $400 per unit. Canada will do anything to manufacture it's own. Pay ten times what the unit is worth, lengthen the testing period so long that the item is out of date, accept inferior quality, place the men whose lives it is supposed to save in danger and go against the grain of common sense when it comes to cheap spare parts and interchangeability on the battlefeild.

Hamas and Jihad target women and children deliberately and once in awhile kill a soldier by chance. Israel on the other hand deliberately targets those who attack and plan the attacks on their women and children. Once in awhile they accidently kill a woman or child. When this happens they frequently hold inquires and take preventative action. Tell me Black Dog, why does Israel purposfully minimize the explosive power of the missiles they use to attack their targets? Truely if they were terrorists as you say they would go for the maximum death and destructive effect. Much like how the Palistinians maximize the amount of non combatents they kill. The answer is that Israel is taking military ation against those who attack her and attemps to minimize collateral damage whereas the Palistinians are killing purely for shock value.

Maybe in your books they do. Right now, thanks to your buddies they are under seige fighting for survival. The Palistinians have brought the front line into their living rooms where they shoot up families as part of their "New" effort to get their bloody message of death across. You would react to an immediate threat from people who wish to kill you, your children and family by doing different? Think of what the peaceloving Hamas would do if they were militarily superior to Israel. You know, the guys who have vowed to destroy every Israeli man woman and child. You think you could negotiate with that? Like Neal said, they have shown incredilbe restraint.

Riff, once again you and I are covering the same ground as if you had a memory lapse from the last time we discussed this issue. First, Saddam's large and ill equipped third rate military WAS a big threat to the area's even less large and even more ill equipped militarys. Nothing he had needed to be Space Technology to be a threat to his neighbors. As well, he was working on some missiles (unknown and illegal by UN resolutions) that were capable of hitting targets all throughout the ME. Saddam, throughout his lifetime invaded other countries, tried to build superguns, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons and such all to assist him in being the leader of the Arab world. Now why should the US care about the Arab world? That's called an area of America's strategic interest. It's where they get a lot of oil from and trade goes both ways. If Saddam took over say, Kuwait again once the US had pulled out, how many times is the US supposed to mobilize for this guy before he gets the message? Anyhow, he could point a missile at SA and another at Damascus or Tel Aviv and intimidate the US into not taking action. Did he have a nuc or nerve agent in the nose cones? Maybe he had nothing, wouldn't matter would it because nobody would take the chance and Kuwait would be under his boot . Then how much oil would he control? Lots. Maybe even enough to control world prices and thus the economy. All that with a bunch of Nerve Agent? I don't have a fireplace and like most of the first world I'm dependent on an oil based economy. So is our stock market, my pension funds, the trucks that bring our food to the grocery store. I don't want to conceed control of that to him. I don't want to see the world economy being run by Saddam. Now the threat to America. Saddam supports terrorists. He pays terrorists, he hates America for two reasons; they deny him his rightful place as ruler of a greater Arabia like Salladine and two they refuse to allow him to take over any country he pleases. The third one I did not include is the greater cause of Palistine and Israel which he couldn't give a shit about but uses nicely for PR purposes. He had not ceased his WMD manufacturing progams and whether the stuff stores well of not is pretty moot when you can make as much whenever you want once sanctions are lifted. To give a small amount to a Islamic Jihad dude to use on Israel is fine I guess in your books. What if he gives a 45 gallon drum of it and only half of it makes it to Gaza. Where did the rest go Riff? Think the PLO or Hamas might trade it for food, money, arms, girls, boys ..... what? To whom? Al Queda? The bloody IRA for all we know but rest assured it would probably end up in America someday and in some devious fashion. That to me was justification enough to shut this bastard down.

No kidding. And the new PM of Palistine said the other day that he wasn't going to dissarm militent groups by force. You know, the ones who scream death to Jews and want to kill every Israeli? So much for peace and co-existence. The only democratic country in a sea of slavery, the only prosperous nation in ocean of opppression, is it any wonder we support it? I suppose that the left will now blame Israel for this one too? "In violence on the Israeli-Lebanese border, a 4-year-old Lebanese boy was killed early Tuesday in a village, apparently after an anti-aircraft shell or mortar fired from within Lebanon toward Israel fell short. Lebanese security officials and residents in Houla said Ali Yassin was killed and his twin brother wounded in the explosion. Israel's army said at least three mortar shells were shot from Lebanon toward northeastern Israel." http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I...EMPLATE=DEFAULT

Totally irrelevant. "But they're bad guys!" Is not a valid justification for violating international law. If Israel felt the Syrian camps presented a threat, there are ways to go about bringing the issue to the world's attention, outside of unilateral use of force. Spare me the bogus hand-wringing about Israel's pending demise. With the largest and most sophisticated military in the region, the unequivocable support of the worl;d's largest military power and nuclear weapons on their side, the survival of Israel is only an issue to people seeking to deflect attention away from the state's crimes. Thinking don't make it so. The ever-climbing death toll on both sides seems to bely your statement. Black Dog, you were the one that brought up soveign nation. I just wanted to point out that it was not. Israel's size is importent. There is no room for error. Even with a strong military there is still once again no room for error. I'll say it again if you wish but I think that scince you have seen how suicide bombers get through into Israel you understand that Israel must always be batting a 100 wheras the terrrorists and their supporters (Syria) only have to get lucky once. As for Israelis thinking they are safer I didn't want to belittle you or I and say that we don't matter in this formula but I will now. They think that they are safer using this approach and they are the ones who reap the rewards for success or punishment for folly. As for expertise in these matters we have none and they have much. They have tried appeasement, money, land, self government and all have met with terror. Just wondering what revolutionary new method you would bring to them?

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/275/wash/U...evidence:.shtml ''We have not found at this point actual weapons,'' Kay said after briefing Congress behind closed doors. ''It does not mean we've concluded there are no actual weapons.'' ''In addition to intent, we have found a large body of continuing activities and equipment that were not declared to the U.N. inspectors when they returned in November of last year,'' he said. ''I'm not pleased by what I heard today, but we should be willing to adopt a wait-and-see attitude and that's the only alternative we really have,'' said Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., said of the Bush administration's justification for going to war: ''Did we misread it, or did they mislead us, or did they simply get it wrong? Whatever the answer is, it's not a good answer.'' KK Well Riff, he had an ongoing program, was trying to develop missiles capable of hitting places like Cairo, Damascus, Tel Aviv, Ridyah and pretty much anywhere he wanted to intimidate. None of it decvlared to the UN. Just keeping the stuff around in case the US lets the heat off maybe? That's what his scientists have said along with this physical evidence. As for the weapons themselves, well bad int maybe or possibly they still might be found. Riff, I can't believe that you, who are normally well argumented would say this. Here, let me try it; A neighbor has a pit bull who bites people whenever he is let off the leash or not tied up. With the neighborhood full of children who play the folk there wanted him destroyed. The owner convinces all that if he keeps him fenced in and stops training him as an attack dog they will not destroy him. In the meantime the owner has, (unknown to the neighbors) been training Fido to bite harder and teases him with games so that although not the threat he was before he is still potentially dangerous to the small children in the area. All he needs ins the OK to let him back on the street. After spending six months fenced in his yard the man who owns him says; "Fido has been sitting on his ass for six months he hasnt moved or attacked anyone. so he obviously has no intent to bite anyone." Well, I guess that scince Fido has been good (through forced confinement and the lack of opportunity to be bad) he will always be good. The people say and let him out. I don't imagine that there is any sanity whatsoever in the rational of my hypothetical neighborhood population so why would it be different in Saddam's case? I guess you would have to read up a bit on history of Iraq in the eighties and ninties Riff. Saddam has a pattern going and from the stuff uncovered the pattern was still going. As for him not getting younger his sons and the Regieme (surely you have heard that word used before) would still be in place and possed virtually the same threat as he, if not worse. As for predicting stuff we went over this before. You can only work with what you have and white magic is not in the arsenal of intelligence. Saddam was a threat, he had a history of repeat offenses, did not co orperate with the international community and the intelligence of the day when combined pointed towards continuing procurement of WMD and material. We have found the material and the infastructure to continue the programes of manufacture as well as delivery of material he had but not the weapons. That alone is in violation of the UN resolutions and is a legal basis for the action taken. Sorry, Bush might have unknowingly been wrong about the WMD themselves but we will have to wait for that one.

The attack wasn't on a soveign nation. It was on Assad's personal prison, the so called country of Syria. A multi million inmate gulag much like Iraq. I wonder whether the Syrian people have had much input into whether or not they like having these camps on their soil? Why do you bash democracy and uplift dictatorships to God like status? Can you think of any begnign reason why Syria has these training camps on her soil? I can think of many but none of them involve any good will towards Israel. And while it does not take much smarts to strap a vest filled with explosives on, it does take a lot of training to make it reliable, to indoctrinate these bombers and motivate them so that they can calmly walk the streets of Israel passing as a normal citizen while carrying a bomb made in a kitchen with enough TNT to blow up a building. It takes training to learn how to fire weapons, infiltrate Jewish society, handle volitile explosive material and work with fuses without blowing themselves up prior to the desired contact with women and children. Ever been to Israel? You can cross it in about an hour. It has virtually no size as we are accustomed to yet they have on all sides enemies who wish to destroy them, see every one of them dead. No buffer zone of any real sort, especially in this day and age of missiles and rapid warfare so I can imagine that Mr Sharone feels he can take a little drastic action to secure the people he has sworn to protect. You might too if there was absolutely zero room for error. Are Israelis any safer? Prior to the sucicide bombings the Israeli left wing was opposed to the government and their hawish stance. Now they are for it. They think they are.

Experienced and seasoned bureaucrats is what got them into that mess. Try somebody that has a history of success and fiscal accountibility. I can't even remember where I was 25 years ago much less what I said or what I did. I would imagine that if I ran for Governor of somewhere that I would find out pretty quick. I doubt that I would even recognize who I was then much less what I said. As for Limbaugh's racist remark there was nothing racist about it. To say that the reason why a football player who he deemed to be not star material was getting disproportionate press coverage was because he was black simply calling the meda themselves racist. They, not the footbal star were the target of Rush's remark. Is the media black or white? Neither so where is the racism here? Talk about calling wolf. While I'm on Rush, I only listen to that windbag as I'm looking for something else to listen to. If anybody on the left thinks that corpulent buffoon is listened to by any serious right winger they are living in a fantasy world. Glen Beck and Sean Hanaddy are serious right. Ultra is Machael Savage, now there is somebody who I seriously can say is right wing. Tune him in sometime there Nova, he is definitely entertaining. Rush though, B O R I N G. I think they put him on the air for the purpose of making the left think the right is dumb as a kind of deception ploy.

I didn't mean to link it in that way. The WTC was the catalyst that set this curse of events in motion. Not to say they would not have happened anyhow on a different time shedule. I in no way meant to say that Saddam had anything to do with it. Matter of fact I would bet good money he had nothing to do with it. Ever been to camp when you were a kid or been on the football team when the coach got po'd for some kid doing something wrong and lays down new rules? It would seem that he suddenly became aware that there was a problem that he had hoped could be dealt with in another way or would disappear on its own. It's kind of like that, a reminder that all is not well.

Lonius, like teenagers at home while the parents go away for the weekend I'm sure all Iraqis do not like the American occupation. Teens can keep it together until the rent is due or a fuse blows. To have the US pull out is simply making every Iraqi/American/WTC death in vain. If they were to do that they might as well open up a US sponsered Al Queda training camp and have Starlifters fly in terrorists to attend it. No sense holding back the inevitable. On the other hand, a year? Enough time to train people in Iraq on how to do stuff for themselves, is that really too much to ask? Enough time to get power going and stop the terrorists who blow it nightly? Too much to ask? It's not like the Americans are in there lining people who can't whistle Dixie up against a wall and shooting them for God's sake.

Yes, it was so pristine before. Now look at what the US has done to the rubble and starving people who were forbidden to whistle while they looked for something to eat. Pull our troops out because they suffered casualties? We had better, otherwise we may get accused of aiding world peace. Countries do not operate in vacums. Have you forgotten what had filled the void a mere two years ago? It's a tough one but the US pulled out because the UN said it would step in. Perfect example of why they are still in Iraq. If we left, Iran, Al Queda, Taliban and God knows who else would step in and I'm sure would do little or nothing to promote world peace, love or Bobby Sherman. As a bonus point for evil they would kill the Afgans on a scale a US led war could never match in day to day administration of the population.

So true. A small peeve of mine is when I read, see, hear from experts in magazines, radio, papers the Oprah show whatever on how to become rich like themselves. Their millionaire answers; work hard, don't be afraid to take chances, be positive, network, invest. Sound like anybody you know? It sure does, probably a good 100% of entreprennuers. They are so full of shit. So, what is the big secret they have that they will not disclose? Luck. In a world where there was no need for a computor Bill would have been a janitor, IBM would be nothing. At the point they started nobody knew what the future would hold. They just happened to be on the right track out of thousands. It is hard work, vision, enthusiasm and ........ luck.

That Nova, is one good reason to vote for him. As well, he has suceeded where others have failed. I don't know much about Hollywood but I would figure that it is an industry much like any other. You have raw material, a workforce, a product to finish under deadlines and a purchaser. Pressure, networking, budgets and all, much like running anything. Arnold has done quite well, better than Davis has done. I would see no reason to not vote for an unproven yet charismatic man who has been a resounding sucess in private industry and has nothing to gain monetarily by holding office. I have to laugh at his opponents. They are so afraid he might win that they have resorted to the extraordinary lengths to go back 28 YEARS to smear him!!!! 28 YEARS!! He was what? 18 then or something? No dirt scince, wow. He must be good. Back to the main though, so many public figures are so entrenched in apathy that they are virtually useless. Time for new blood. At the very least it is doubtful he will be in it for the padded expenses like our polititians.

Voting license - AKA California Drivers License.

Well, that matter is settled. Close the thread.

I know this has probably been gone over before many times but I wanted to add a small twist. Let's hear it without making ONE SINGLE REFERENCE to the USA. No comparisons or statistics, maybe a geographical reference but nothing more. Just a reason why you figure we should be proud of being Canadian.

So true Craig. I would assume that in this Liberal Bizzarro world that if one of your employees takes his or her paycheck and does not buy food for his or her family that is your fault? You Sir, are truely evil. Paying people for services and or products, you brute! I'll bet that if you depend on them to keep your business afloat and when they don't show up for work your phone calls and inquires to their whereabouts and intentions are a severe infringement on their way of life you bastard. I don't know what kind of operation you are running Craig but if you think that you can ask people to be stable and show up for work and produce what they said they could you are out of line Sir. Just like your God the USA does. Imagine trying to buy a product off a third world government, who do they think they are?

It is. And the same the other way as well. To make them out to be the true evil is taking away from correct action. It is not simply a matter of understanding, compassion and religion. There are forces of personal power and greed, unwillingness to change political systems to meet a changing world, unwarrented and warrented anger and decisions made by emotion rather than logic. These are on all sides. Note the French who one week said that the ruling council of Iraq would not be recognised as they were unable to hold power and then a week later they said the US must leave Iraq immediatley and turn power over to the ruling council (who a week prior they thought were monkeys.) A well thought out proper recommendation? No. Just being a snitty bitch. To hold to one course of action is not the way to sove this new problem. It is bigger than one simple solution and requires yes, understanding of other cultures, military might, money, world co operation and most of all the willingness of the world's better off nations to drop the ego plays and work together to stop this steamroller of terrorism,

QUOTE theloniusfleabag,Oct 4 2003, 03:17 PM " Dear KK,You seem to think that the US and it's policies are to blame." KK I must have misunderstood you Lonius as the argument that I put forth was not one of the USA being to blame but rather the whole situation of agitation, primitive beliefs, envy, inability to change politically and simply charismatic people taking advantage of people was. In this the USA is only an evil of convenience rather than the real villan. My quote; "I, on the other hand think that even if the US were twice as benevolent and did not support Israel that it would have been attacked anyways." This does not mean that they are exxonerated from wrong doing but for the world to realize that they are simply cast as villans in a deadly play. If Canada were the world's superpower they would hold that dubious honor. Who plays the other parts? Victim - any mismanaged dictatorship. Monarchies that have starving populations due to greed of rulers can fill this role as well along with dozens of others. Good guys and men in white - anybody unwilling to make a substancial difference in stopping death and starvation by inflicting posititve change on unwilling rulers who like the staus quo. Walk on parts - anybody that wants to say something that we all know or something that is accepted already by one side or the other. Lip service from Liberal Eleaches. Yes, we have to rewrite the script with imput from all parties but first we have to close this show down.