jbg Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Further, if a coalition of the most powerful nations on Earth are exacerbating the terrorism problem, it takes a bit of gall to blame "moderate Muslims" for insufficient effectiveness. Exacerbating the terrorist problem? How, by existing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Who is? Not I. My issue has always been Islam. Not Muslims. So knock-off with the hints o' genocide. If Islam was a new thing practiced by small numbers we'd call it a cult. A sick one at that. But every time people try to defend the actions of some Muslims, there are people on this board who always talk genocide. But it's usually a reference to the Jews getting wiped out. So maybe you want to knock-off with the hint's o genocide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Oh c'mon. Are you suggesting that the thousands, hundreds of thousands, of violent acts over the past 1400 years were religiously/politically/violently/ committed fully in the name of Islam ** jihad, were perpetrated by solely by an unhinged element followers of a different Islam? I'm saying that no one here has submitted any rational reasoning that indicates any religion causes one to be violent. If you're going back that far, the burden of proof on you to prove Islam more violent than other religions is prohibitively difficult. You simply can't do it, it can't be proven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 State Sponsored terrorism ✓ Repeatedly threatening to annihilate Israel ✓ Pursuing Nukes with intent on use✓ Using children to clear mines during the Iran-Iraq War ✓ They sure sound like a sweet and cuddly bunch. You're more in the geo-political realm here than the religious realm. Maybe there's something genetically wrong with people from that region, is that what you're trying to say ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 All Germans weren't Nazis. You're implying that all Muslims are Islamists ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 You're implying that all Muslims are Islamists ? No...you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 But every time people try to defend the actions of some Muslims, there are people on this board who always talk genocide. But it's usually a reference to the Jews getting wiped out. So maybe you want to knock-off with the hint's o genocide. IF the muslims knock off with the promise of Genocide then the rest of us can stop referring to it. You are saying we should stop talking about about it but you have no issue wit the people who are preaching it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 You're more in the geo-political realm here than the religious realm. Maybe there's something genetically wrong with people from that region, is that what you're trying to say ? They want to kill Israel in the name of Islam, many other Arabs want to destroy Israel once again in the name of Islam, you do the math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) But every time people try to defend the actions of some Muslims, there are people on this board who always talk genocide. But it's usually a reference to the Jews getting wiped out. So maybe you want to knock-off with the hint's o genocide. Ummmm....Hamas supports genocide. It's in their charter. Meanwhile... [ video removed]Awwwww....better not show that. Might put Islam in a bad light. Edited June 7, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Ummmm....Hamas supports genocide. It's in their charter. Meanwhile... [ video removed]Awwwww....better not show that. Might put Islam in a bad light. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18344116 Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has ordered the construction of 300 new homes at the Jewish settlement of Beit El in the West Bank.The announcement came hours after Israel's parliament rejected a bill to legalise settlement outposts. Mr Netanyahu, who opposed the bill, said he would honour a Supreme Court order to demolish homes on private Palestinian land at the Ulpana outpost. The issue has been a source of tension between settlers and the government. All settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this. The settler outposts are also illegal under Israeli law and the government agreed to remove them under the 2003 Road Map peace plan. Reacting to Mr Netanyahu's announcement, a US spokesman said that "continued Israeli settlement activity in the West Bank undermines peace efforts and contradicts Israeli commitments and obligations". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 So now I will practice my mind reading skills and will attempt to figure out what GH's reason for that post was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 So now I will practice my mind reading skills and will attempt to figure out what GH's reason for that post was. Apparently at a loss for verbs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 No...you are. How am I saying that ? You provided the Nazi example as a counterpoint to... something. Are you backing away now ? If so, good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 They want to kill Israel in the name of Islam, many other Arabs want to destroy Israel once again in the name of Islam, you do the math. So terrorists want to commit acts of terror ? Ok, got it. What do you want me to do with that ? Simple platitudes and repetition of blamelets don't represent an argument, they're basically emotional outbursts that don't add up to anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 So terrorists want to commit acts of terror ? Ok, got it. What do you want me to do with that ? Simple platitudes and repetition of blamelets don't represent an argument, they're basically emotional outbursts that don't add up to anything. So you agree that Iran is a terrorist state then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 How am I saying that ? You provided the Nazi example as a counterpoint to... something. Are you backing away now ? If so, good. You want me to state that all Muslims are bad. But, I won't because it isn't true. However, I have a bone to pick with Islam and as far as I'm aware, Islam isn't some sacred cow...yet. When the day comes in Canada that I can no longer voice my opinion about a religion/cult and its violent aspects, then I'll keep quiet about it...probably out of fear for my life. Not all Germans were Nazis, but when the Nazis (read: Germans) were a problem, our fathers and grandfathers had no qualm about bombing them all into dust...including my family who are German Canadian and flew with Bomber Command during WW2. Does that mean I'm suddenly Charles Manson? Does that mean I want to kill all Germans? Does that mean I want to kill all Germans today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 So you agree that Iran is a terrorist state then? Is that what you're saying ? If so, I haven't seen anything on here specific to Iran, but it wouldn't surprise me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 You want me to state that all Muslims are bad. But, I won't because it isn't true. I'm actually glad to hear you say that. However, I have a bone to pick with Islam and as far as I'm aware, Islam isn't some sacred cow...yet. When the day comes in Canada that I can no longer voice my opinion about a religion/cult and its violent aspects, then I'll keep quiet about it...probably out of fear for my life. Your opinion is somewhat nuanced, but ... in the end you're just griping about a group of people you don't like. There's not much to be said about that, is there ? You could do similar griping about other groups, not that it would be the same thing... but the result is the same: it's just a complaint. Not all Germans were Nazis, but when the Nazis (read: Germans) were a problem, our fathers and grandfathers had no qualm about bombing them all into dust...including my family who are German Canadian and flew with Bomber Command during WW2. Does that mean I'm suddenly Charles Manson? Does that mean I want to kill all Germans? Does that mean I want to kill all Germans today? Religions are a bit different, though. They're necessarily dumb, because their rules of conduct were developed over centuries, so they contradict each other ... you can take a holy book like the bible and point out beautiful poems and fables, or horrific rules of conduct telling you to kill people. So one holy book strikes you as worse than the others ? Ok... fine. So be it. That, in the end, is a matter of (dis)taste on your part, as they all have the same problem, right ? And - more to the point - where is the opportunity for discussion here ? I could start a thread on how much I hate Italian food, or Italians for that matter... the only point of discussion seems to be around whether or not you should be discussing that. And that's exactly what we end up discussing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) I do not start threads, in general. No threads about Islam and how nice it is...no DogOnPorch saying bad things about the Religion of Peace. No threads about how Israelis are Nazis and Hamas are pure as snow? No DogOnPorch comments on the motives of of said poster. It's pretty simple. I've been here a few years and would rather talk to my friends about aircraft or some other mundane thing. But, I've been in your Cooler for this or that horrible infraction...if you really want me gone, I'm sure it could be arranged. Edited June 7, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 But, I've been in your Cooler for this or that horrible infraction...if you really want me gone, I'm sure it could be arranged. Not 'my' cooler... I doubt I have much more influence than anyone else - I hit the report button the same way you all do, and from the reports I have seen, I'm less likely to call for specific discipline (i.e. bannings) than most of you. Whether or not you start the thread, the point is: why post about what you like/don't like ? There's no possibility of discussion there really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Not 'my' cooler... I doubt I have much more influence than anyone else - I hit the report button the same way you all do, and from the reports I have seen, I'm less likely to call for specific discipline (i.e. bannings) than most of you. Whether or not you start the thread, the point is: why post about what you like/don't like ? There's no possibility of discussion there really. I replied to bud's outright lie re: the Palestinian's non-connection to the Third Reich. Should I have just let it go, Michael? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I replied to bud's outright lie re: the Palestinian's non-connection to the Third Reich. Should I have just let it go, Michael? Of course not. But that's entirely a different discussion than the blamelets we see here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Of course not. But that's entirely a different discussion than the blamelets we see here... Then describe. I'll respond. I couldn't read Gosthacked's mind, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I'm saying that no one here has submitted any rational reasoning that indicates any religion causes one to be violent. If you're going back that far, the burden of proof on you to prove Islam more violent than other religions is prohibitively difficult. You simply can't do it, it can't be proven. If one is determined to encompass the entire historic exploits of a religion as perhaps Christianity, one might suggest the facts show that religion indeed did directly cause violence. Examples such as, the inquisition.Capital punishment for heresy certainly is violence driven by religion. As is execution for apostasy, blasphemy or perhaps the Crusades, ( religious expeditionary wars blessed by the pope.) Violence pursued for religion. The Roman Empire persecuted Christians violently who were often given opportunities to avoid further punishment by publicly offering sacrifices or burning incense to Roman gods. One might suggest that was then, this is now. There are certainly violent acts committed by small groups or individuals in the name of religion in contemporary times. Now, let's look at al-Qaeda a global Islamist violent organization bent or implementing religious sharia on the world it attacks. "Among the beliefs ascribed to Al-Qaeda members is the conviction that a Christian–Jewish alliance is conspiring to destroy Islam.[25] As Salafist jihadists, they believe that the killing of civilians is religiously sanctioned, and they ignore any aspect of religious scripture which might be interpreted as forbidding the murder of civilians and internecine fighting.[10][26] Al-Qaeda also opposes man-made laws, and wants to replace them with a strict form of sharia law.[27] Al-Qaeda is also responsible for instigating sectarian violence among Muslims.[28] Al-Qaeda is intolerant of non-Sunni branches of Islam and denounces them by means of excommunications called "takfir". Al-Qaeda leaders regard liberal Muslims, Shias, Sufis, Ahmadiyyas and other sects as heretics and have attacked their mosques and gatherings.[2" Lets look at contemporary Taliban a violent Islamist practicing violence in the name of religion." While in power, it enforced its strict interpretation of Sharia law, The Taliban were condemned internationally for their brutal repression of women and violence against women in the name of religion. Acid in the face as an example. You state, "the burden of proof on you to prove Islam more violent than other religions is prohibitively difficult. You simply can't do it, it can't be proven." I put it to you that it has been proven that today, Islam has shown itself to be more violent than other religions today. Islam proves that point on a daily basis. Assuredly one might continue to deny 'it' has not been proved, but that's your only your opinion which carries no more weight than does mine. I personally feel that Islam over the 1400 years has been a more violent religion than its contemporaries. Of course I can't prove that to the satisfaction of anyone determined to deny it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 If one is determined to encompass the entire historic exploits of a religion as perhaps Christianity, one might suggest the facts show that religion indeed did directly cause violence. Examples such as, the inquisition.Capital punishment for heresy certainly is violence driven by religion. As is execution for apostasy, blasphemy or perhaps the Crusades, ( religious expeditionary wars blessed by the pope.) Violence pursued for religion. The Roman Empire persecuted Christians violently who were often given opportunities to avoid further punishment by publicly offering sacrifices or burning incense to Roman gods. One might suggest that was then, this is now. Except that you introduced the timeframe we're discussing, not me. I put it to you that it has been proven that today, Islam has shown itself to be more violent than other religions today. Islam proves that point on a daily basis. Assuredly one might continue to deny 'it' has not been proved, but that's your only your opinion which carries no more weight than does mine. A proof is above opinion. If you can prove the point, then I will change my opinion guaranteed. But the point isn't whether Islam is more/less violent. If you can prove that first, maybe that would help, but the real question is whether it *makes* people more violent. An allegory may be tried around race and crime. You can show that certain races are disproportionately represented in prison, but saying that their crimes were caused because the race is more prone to crime is a different burden of proof. I personally feel that Islam over the 1400 years has been a more violent religion than its contemporaries. Of course I can't prove that to the satisfaction of anyone determined to deny it. Wait a second - didn't you just use "that was then this is now" for Christianity ? Don't tie Islam to deeds of 1400 years ago unless you're doing the same with other religions. If you're trying to say that Christianity has improved and undergone a reformation then that's a different point. In that case, you're really still just talking about the state of the religions today. Some would argue that it's culture, not religion, that causes these problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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