Who was the first to discover America?

[GostHacked]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/index.html

There was a documentary on History Channel the other day about how the Chinese might have been the first to discover America. . Anyways, it seems that it was 70 years before Columbus in which the Chinese arrived in America. If that is the case, then North American Natives just might be Chinese!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7722602442889799648#

This one is a different documentary than was on History Channel. But hints at some of the same theories.

Also it seems like there is DNA evidence that there is a definate mix with North American Natives (those who crossed the Bearing Straight) and the Chinese that came before Columbus.

One thing they say about the maps at 32 mins in, is how the maps were not drawn correctly, but if they are mirrored in a way, that should prove even more so about the Chinese being there first, they drew all their maps upside down compared to what we think and know of maps today.

There are some things in his theory he needs to tweak, but who knows. Compelling none the less.

[ToadBrother]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/index.html

There was a documentary on History Channel the other day about how the Chinese might have been the first to discover America. . Anyways, it seems that it was 70 years before Columbus in which the Chinese arrived in America. If that is the case, then North American Natives just might be Chinese!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7722602442889799648#

This one is a different documentary than was on History Channel. But hints at some of the same theories.

Also it seems like there is DNA evidence that there is a definate mix with North American Natives (those who crossed the Bearing Straight) and the Chinese that came before Columbus.

One thing they say about the maps at 32 mins in, is how the maps were not drawn correctly, but if they are mirrored in a way, that should prove even more so about the Chinese being there first, they drew all their maps upside down compared to what we think and know of maps today.

There are some things in his theory he needs to tweak, but who knows. Compelling none the less.

You are aware, I hope, that the Indians in the Americas are, by and large, of East Asian origin anyways? While it's always possible that some Chinese could have got here, it's not terribly likely. This theory has been around for some time, and hasn't gained much traction because it's more wishful thinking than theory.

[DogOnPorch]

L'Anse aux Meadows

[ToadBrother]

L'Anse aux Meadows

Which is the Atlantic, with what amounts to island hopping (Iceland to Greenland to probably Baffin Island to Newfoundland). Quite a diffrent thing than the Pacific.

[DogOnPorch]

Which is the Atlantic, with what amounts to island hopping (Iceland to Greenland to probably Baffin Island to Newfoundland). Quite a diffrent thing than the Pacific.

Vikings...such losers.

[DrGreenthumb]

The Vikings were definately here before Columbus. You can go see the ruins of their old settlements in Newfoundland.

[DogOnPorch]

The Vikings were definately here before Columbus. You can go see the ruins of their old settlements in Newfoundland.

Yes...see my link above.

[bush_cheney2004]

You are aware, I hope, that the Indians in the Americas are, by and large, of East Asian origin anyways? While it's always possible that some Chinese could have got here, it's not terribly likely. This theory has been around for some time, and hasn't gained much traction because it's more wishful thinking than theory.

Good point.....and an obvious DUH! Where did they think "Indians" came from? There are several valid possibilities for North ans South American settlement from many sources and different times.

[Topaz]

The Vikings were definately here before Columbus. You can go see the ruins of their old settlements in Newfoundland.

Remembering public school history, wasn`t it Eric the Red?

[Guest TrueMetis]

Remembering public school history, wasn`t it Eric the Red?

I pretty sure your right.

Now why is it that the people who lived here 10000's of thousands of years don't get the credit for discovering the Americas? I mean WTF?

[bush_cheney2004]

....Now why is it that the people who lived here 10000's of thousands of years don't get the credit for discovering the Americas? I mean WTF?

Because it wasn't called America yet.

[jefferiah]

Remembering public school history, wasn`t it Eric the Red?

Leif Eriksson.

Erik was his father. Discovered Greenland I think.

Some people speculate that Irish monk St. Brendan was here earlier than that.

Edited August 29, 2010 by jefferiah

[GostHacked]

You are aware, I hope, that the Indians in the Americas are, by and large, of East Asian origin anyways? While it's always possible that some Chinese could have got here, it's not terribly likely. This theory has been around for some time, and hasn't gained much traction because it's more wishful thinking than theory.

I did note that in my post. I noted that they crossed the Bearing Straight. Evolution between the two groups made a varied difference in the genetic make up of both peoples. Simply they branched out because of the new environment. But what he eludes to is recent asian genes being introduced to the Natives most likely during the 1400s when this Chinese fleet traveled the world. These new genes are not consistant with the Natives that settled and evolved in North America. He even says that Peruvians had similarly been mixed with the asian gene. I don't think it's conclusive yet, but if he is able to find DNA evidence of this 'recent' mix (recent bing 1300s 1500s,) then it does prove that the Chinese were here before Columbus.

It could be a matter of really old ancient asian genes mixed with the newer asian genes, but evolution changed the natives of north.

I won't get into the Vikings, that was not part of my OP.

Edited August 30, 2010 by GostHacked

[wyly]

Which is the Atlantic, with what amounts to island hopping (Iceland to Greenland to probably Baffin Island to Newfoundland). Quite a diffrent thing than the Pacific.

virtually all sailing in those times were of island hopping type, sailors rarely did blue water sailing preferring to stay close to shore with the notable exception of the Polynesians and the Vikings neither one of which could be called Island hoppers as they had no sight of the next destination...

the Chinese could have very easily done their own Island hopping by way of the Bearing Sea...

[wyly]

You are aware, I hope, that the Indians in the Americas are, by and large, of East Asian origin anyways? While it's always possible that some Chinese could have got here, it's not terribly likely. This theory has been around for some time, and hasn't gained much traction because it's more wishful thinking than theory.

it's possible but they left no trace even if true...

[M.Dancer]

A word of caution.

History TV often airs crap that is not history and borders on pure unscientific speculation.

Ditto for Discovery TV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies#1421:_The_Year_China_Discovered_the_World

Edited August 30, 2010 by M.Dancer

[wyly]

I pretty sure your right.

Now why is it that the people who lived here 10000's of thousands of years don't get the credit for discovering the Americas? I mean WTF?

absolutely...the only mystry here is in how many waves of migration, from which direction and the timelines...the land bridge from asia was the tradionally accepted means of arrival but now a northern sea route island hopping from asia is an equally viable scenario...

DNA of northeastern natives may suggest that there may have been a early euro migration...there is now evidence the Polynesians made contact in South America about the same time as the Vikings in the North...

[Jack Weber]

I remember watching a TV show a long time ago...And the only reason I remember it is becuae Leonard Nimoy was hosting...Tlaking about this very subject...

The show docemanted evidence that the Chinese were exploring the West coast of Central and North America around the same time that Columbus and Cabot were exploreing the East coast.The reason is that they found anchors left by the Chinese Junks that weere dated to that period.The Chinese used a stone ancher that looked like an almost solid wheel,except for a hole drilled through the middle where the rope went.That stone was tested and found to be indigenous to China...

[ToadBrother]

Good point.....and an obvious DUH! Where did they think "Indians" came from? There are several valid possibilities for North ans South American settlement from many sources and different times.

The picture is more complex than anyone thought even twenty years ago. Back then, it was simple. You had a period when Berengia still existed, linking Asia and the Americas, and when an ice free corridor allowed access into the interior of North America around 14,000 to 12,000 years ago, and a bunch of Siberians and other east Asians migrated over (hence the likelihood of finding a bunch of similar haplotypes between Chinese and Native Americans, it would be amazing if you didn't, and does not correlate to Chinese sailing across the Pacific). As well, you had the ancestors of the Inuit, who migrated into North America something like 6,000 years ago, and made it all the way to Greenland in short order, as an entirely different source of East Asian genes.

Since then, a small number of finds, including Kennowick man who seems to have been, morphologically, more like Caucasoids (or more likely from the same founding populations that produced the Ainu of Japan), along with archaeological discoveries in Central America that are totally out to lunch with the Paleo-Indian time lines suggest that there were previous migrations into the Americas, possibly by a circumpolar people who used ice-free corridors to get south of the vast North American ice sheets into more temperate regions of North America and even South America.

What's more, there is a growing body of evidence that some Polynesians made it to South America at some pre-Columbian point. The Polynesians have a somewhat complex ancestry themselves, being closely related, for instance, to the original indigenous peoples of Taiwan, so one can readily see how you might find some "Chinese" genes (whatever exactly those are, certainly any genotypic analysis I've ever seen talks about East Asian populations, seeing no considerable difference, for instance, between Chinese, Korean and Japanese groups based on a strict molecular analysis).

[DogOnPorch]

Migration waves have to be of a fairly large number for any colony to survive beyond a dozen generations without the effects of inbreeding becoming a real problem. This tends to rule-out the random boat with a few people in it starting an inroad into North America.

Edited August 30, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[ToadBrother]

I remember watching a TV show a long time ago...And the only reason I remember it is becuae Leonard Nimoy was hosting...Tlaking about this very subject...

The show docemanted evidence that the Chinese were exploring the West coast of Central and North America around the same time that Columbus and Cabot were exploreing the East coast.The reason is that they found anchors left by the Chinese Junks that weere dated to that period.The Chinese used a stone ancher that looked like an almost solid wheel,except for a hole drilled through the middle where the rope went.That stone was tested and found to be indigenous to China...

I know of no conclusive findings of this kind. To sail straight across the Pacific to North America with pre-modern boatmaking technology certainly isn't impossible, but to claim that it happened as a matter of course is a bit much to buy. The Polynesians did their trans-Pacific voyages, again, by island hopping. They probably made it to South America, but it was a circuitous multi-generational set of voyages and not just some guys hopping on a boat and sailing from Melanesia to Peru.

It's one thing to suggest, as some have, that the odd Chinese or Roman boat might have got caught and made it across, but up until about the 13th or 14th century, pretty much all ships hugged the coastlines, with the Canary Islands being about as close as anyone got to trans-oceanic voyaging. It's possible that the Basques might have been fishing off the Grand Banks, as a possible exception, but evidence for that is scant, too.

So far as I know, the Chinese never did any major trans-oceanic voyages. Their famous voyages in the 14th and 15th centuries were still coast-hugging voyages.

[ToadBrother]

Migration waves have to be of a fairly large number for any colony to survive beyond a dozen generations without the effects of inbreeding becoming a real problem. This tends to rule-out the random boat with a few people in it starting an inroad into North America.

The Tasmanian Aborigines survived for ten thousand years after the Straight of Tores was (re)created at the end of the last Ice Age, severing Tasmania from Australia. They lived under just about the most primitive conditions of any modern human population, but they did survive, up until the arrival of Europeans, the last full-blooded Tasmanian dying, as I recall in the early 20th century.

Since our knowledge is still pretty shaky, we can't be sure of the numbers. It is possible, even likely, that the pre-Paleo-Indian populations were never very dense, and either died out before the arrival of Paleo-Indians out of Siberia or were wiped out/assimilated when those populations arrived. Certainly if their numbers were fairly small, inter-breeding would have probably wiped out any genetic trace of them thousands of years ago.

Whatever the case, the facts are pretty clear. There were pre-Clovis populations in the Americas.

Edited August 30, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Jack Weber]

I know of no conclusive findings of this kind. To sail straight across the Pacific to North America with pre-modern boatmaking technology certainly isn't impossible, but to claim that it happened as a matter of course is a bit much to buy. The Polynesians did their trans-Pacific voyages, again, by island hopping. They probably made it to South America, but it was a circuitous multi-generational set of voyages and not just some guys hopping on a boat and sailing from Melanesia to Peru.

It's one thing to suggest, as some have, that the odd Chinese or Roman boat might have got caught and made it across, but up until about the 13th or 14th century, pretty much all ships hugged the coastlines, with the Canary Islands being about as close as anyone got to trans-oceanic voyaging. It's possible that the Basques might have been fishing off the Grand Banks, as a possible exception, but evidence for that is scant, too.

So far as I know, the Chinese never did any major trans-oceanic voyages. Their famous voyages in the 14th and 15th centuries were still coast-hugging voyages.

Well...I'm not certain of that because we know the Chinese explored the East coast of Africa durng the same period...Chinese artifacts of that period have been found in Madagascar and the Tanzania coast.In fact.I've heared historians wonder why the Chinese did'nt colonize the East coast of Africa,unlike the Europeans...All I know is they pulled that anchor out of the coastal waters off of Mexico and it came up looking like an anchor from a Chinese junk...And they drilled out a core sample and it was made from rock that is indigenous to rock in China...Who knows???

Edited August 30, 2010 by Jack Weber

[DogOnPorch]

ToadBrother: The Tasmanian Aborigines survived for ten thousand years after the Straight of Tores was (re)created at the end of the last Ice Age...

Agreement...disease...warfare with themselves...warfare vs the Europeans (the Black War in particular) quickly reduced their relatively small numbers to nil.

[GostHacked]

ToadBrother

For travel it does not seem that far off.

The video explains how they could have traveled from Africa straight over to the Caribbean. As they rounded the west side of Africa, the flow of water brings them out, and the wind brings them back in, but as soon as they get neat the equator, the water seems to flow directly west, so even without the help of wind, eventually the currents would take them directly west to the Caribbean.

Is that similar to how Columbus got here? Some ocean currents eventually brought them to the east cost of North America?