Occupy Wall Street Sept 17 2011

[jacee]

Occupy Veterans Movement Growing Across U.S.

Since Occupy Wall Street protests have broken out in cities across the U.S. and abroad, support has come from what might seem like an unlikely corner: war veterans. But two of the highest-profile protesters -- each from opposite ends of the country -- had served in wars.

Last week, the world watched as bleeding, dazed 24-year-old Marine Scott Olsen was carried away by fellow protesters after he was struck in the head by an object apparently fired by an Oakland police officer. And before that, Marine Sgt. Shamar Thomas was captured on video confronting a group of New York police officers he said had been too rough with protesters

Both Thomas and Olsen have become rallying figures in the Occupy Wall Street movement -- not only among civilian protesters but among veterans whose participation in the protests has been growing, according to such veterans-turned- organizers as Paige Jenkins."For veterans especially, health care is paramount, yet is always on the table to be cut," Jenkins said in an interview with ABC News. "Vets in this movement don't want to fight anymore. We want to make peace and ive peaceably. We shouldn't have to fight for our benefits, and if vets are fighting for their benefits then it can't be any better for nonvets.

"What do you think is going to happen in 2012 after everyone gets home from Iraq? No jobs, no benefits. This will not be a good scene," Jenkins

continued. "

"I imagine the suicide rate will climb, and sadly, I think that some people in this country don't feel any responsibility for that."

Jenkins who served first in the U.S. Navy and then in the California National Guard, said that some veterans were organizing to be "peacekeepers" and maintain "perimeter security."

"As vets, I think it is our job to protect our community through teachings of nonviolence and defensive measures like how to protect yourself from unprovoked police attacks," said Jenkins, who is currently studying military social work at the University of Southern California's Virtual Academic Center.

This is a profound development ... veterans placing themselves in protection of protesting citizens and facing off with police ... !

Edited November 2, 2011 by jacee

[cybercoma]

But of course...we will just ignore the existence of Paul Martin in Libya, or Canadian mining companies tearing up the planet and "killing people" and their way of life, or the dirtiest, filthiest oil extraction process on earth (tarsands), or the worst polluting coal fired power plant in North America (Nanticoke).

We'll ignore all the Canadian uranium ore that fostered Cold War nuclear weapons that still exist today, not to mention fun spin-offs like depleted uranium munitions. Thanks Canada...you make the world a better place!

No we won't. You'll ignore those things because they're "none of your business", as you would argue and leave that to Canadians to worry about.

You know, saying someone else does bad things too doesn't actually excuse the bad things that you're doing.

Why did you break that window, Billy?

Tommy set the dumpster on fire!

I will get to Tommy. Now why did you break that window?

Edited November 2, 2011 by cybercoma

[jacee]

Some analysis by one of my faves.

http://tarpley.net/2011/10/28/last-tuesday-occupy-wall-street-endorsed-the-1-wall-street-sales-tax-and-became-a-real-threat-to-financier-power/

I'm very concerned about a comment on this vid that the police crackdown (in the US) last Tuesday was a direct result of adbusters making a 'demand'.

The demand ... a 1% sales tax on Wall Street "is a real threat to Wall Street and therefore on Tuesday we get massive police repression coming down...".

I ask again of any US posters or observers here ... How is that possible?

Who gives orders to police?

In Ontario we've been through a public inquiry into the death of Dudley George, an Aboriginal protester killed by an OPP sniper, where the main issue was whether the premier ordered use of violence to remove protesters, because politicians/government cannot interfere with police decision-making.

It's an ongoing issue of course, and deserves more attention than just a passing reference that an action of adbusters can IMMEDIATELY translate into nation-wide police crackdown on protesters. Is that true? How does that happen?

I would like to know whether politicians/government or the private sector/Wall Street can influence police decision-making in the US.

Is that legal?

Bush_Cheney? AmWo? Jbg? Any comment?

If veterans become peacekeepers for the OCCUPY movement, the question becomes rather critical ... Will police still obey orders from 'Wall Street' if it means facing soldiers?

Will the powers-that-be still assume that they can order the army in to clear protesters if necessary? Will the army and police still obey 'orders' from Wall Street?

If the movement continues to gather strength and becomes a real threat to the predatory Wall Street 1% ... who will protect 'them' ??

Edited November 2, 2011 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

No we won't. You'll ignore those things because they're "none of your business", as you would argue and leave that to Canadians to worry about.

Something you seem unable to do as well. I am here just to take your kind of smug Canadian BS and blow it right back in your face. Don't dish it if you can't take some in return.

You know, saying someone else does bad things too doesn't actually excuse the bad things that you're doing.

But you sure look stupid saying such crap while doing identical things on an international stage.

Why did you break that window, Billy?

Tommy set the dumpster on fire!

I will get to Tommy. Now why did you break that window?

Why did you bomb Libyans, Billy?

Edited November 2, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[capricorn]

If veterans become peacekeepers for the OCCUPY movement, the question becomes rather critical ... Will police still obey orders from 'Wall Street' if it means facing soldiers?

Huh, huh, give your head a shake jacee. You're entering into Twilight Zone territory.

[GostHacked]

I'm very concerned about a comment on this vid that the police crackdown (in the US) last Tuesday was a direct result of adbusters making a 'demand'.

The demand ... a 1% sales tax on Wall Street "is a real threat to Wall Street and therefore on Tuesday we get massive police repression coming down...".

I ask again of any US posters or observers here ... How is that possible?

Who gives orders to police?

In Ontario we've been through a public inquiry into the death of Dudley George, an Aboriginal protester killed by an OPP sniper, where the main issue was whether the premier ordered use of violence to remove protesters, because politicians/government cannot interfere with police decision-making.

It's an ongoing issue of course, and deserves more attention than just a passing reference that an action of adbusters can IMMEDIATELY translate into nation-wide police crackdown on protesters. Is that true? How does that happen?

I would like to know whether politicians/government or the private sector/Wall Street can influence police decision-making in the US.

Is that legal?

Bush_Cheney? AmWo? Jbg? Any comment?

If veterans become peacekeepers for the OCCUPY movement, the question becomes rather critical ... Will police still obey orders from 'Wall Street' if it means facing soldiers?

Will the powers-that-be still assume that they can order the army in to clear protesters if necessary? Will the army and police still obey 'orders' from Wall Street?

If the movement continues to gather strength and becomes a real threat to the predatory Wall Street 1% ... who will protect 'them' ??

The government makes the rules for us. The government is bought off by corps and wallstreet. Guess who the police serve? Guess who gives the orders to the police?

But like in other countries, it will be the police and military that make that difference. It depends on what side they choose to be on. But the way I see it, is that these cops could end up being the tool for their own oppression. Once the powers that be are done screwing over the people through the police, the powers that be are going to screw over the police as well.

Edited November 2, 2011 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

Huh, huh, give your head a shake jacee. You're entering into Twilight Zone territory.

We are already in that zone. When have you seen this kind of thing on a global scale? Occupy seems to have gone global. Movements are in Canada, the USA, New Zealand, Australia, England, Germany, ect ect ect ect ect ect ect ect........

It may look like the twilight zone to many, only because they are now kind of waking up to a new reality. Or maybe waking up to reality in general. To me, reality is really ugly, but it's at least real. We are really living in a fantasy world created through media over the last century. We have been molded, manipulated, coerced into a line of thinking.

Now people are starting to think for themselves again. The elite get worried when the masses are able to think for themselves and understand how they have been collectively screwed over.

People are pulling a Howard Beale, 'I am mad as hell and I am not going to take this anymore'. But hopefully the movement won't end like the movie did. With someone in the audience pulling a gun and killing the host of the show as it fades into the background again slipping back into the mosaic of the rest of the 'news'.

[cybercoma]

Why did you bomb Libyans, Billy?

Off-topic, Tommy. Start a thread about Libya and I'll complain about our government's misguided interference into a civil war by backing groups we knew nothing about there.

[bush_cheney2004]

Off-topic, Tommy. Start a thread about Libya and I'll complain about our government's misguided interference into a civil war by backing groups we knew nothing about there.

It's always off topic when you don't want to deal with the reality of your own nation's domestic and foreign policy. Next you'll tell me this is a Canadian web site and that I should go away and let you bloviate ad nauseum about how America is the root of all evil. Then get your own "Wall Street" to bitch about.

[GostHacked]

It's always off topic when you don't want to deal with the reality of your own nation's domestic and foreign policy.

You are the one who is in the most denial. But what do you want with an alias such as yours. Of course it's abrasive on purpose.

Next you'll tell me this is a Canadian web site and that I should go away and let you bloviate ad nauseum about how America is the root of all evil. Then get your own "Wall Street" to bitch about.

When you deal with your own stuff south of the 49th, then we can work together.

Pound sand troll.

[Shady]

We are already in that zone. When have you seen this kind of thing on a global scale? Occupy seems to have gone global. Movements are in Canada, the USA, New Zealand, Australia, England, Germany, ect ect ect ect ect ect ect ect........

You'll find that there are lazy, unemployed, self-indulged, people that think they're entitled in pretty much every country around the world. However, they're barely noticable, especially in Canada. In London, we have about 40 people in Victoria Park. Nobody knows what, or who they're protesting against. Nobody cares.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Shady

[GostHacked]

You'll find that there are lazy, unemployed, self-indulged, people that think they're entitled in pretty much every country around the world.

You are such a master of intense intellect and insight, thank you for this. Give yourself another award.

However, they're barely noticable, especially in Canada. In London, we have about 40 people in Victoria Park. Nobody knows what, or who they're protesting against. Nobody cares.

Protesting and camping out is all fine, but if the movement does not collectively make demands and take direction, the elite are going to continue doing what they have been doing.

[Shady]

Protesting and camping out is all fine, but if the movement does not collectively make demands and take direction, the elite are going to continue doing what they have been doing.

Not just the so-called elite. These protesters don't speak for me, and don't speak for a lot of people. They just pretend to.

[capricorn]

We are already in that zone.

Let's have another look at what jaycee wrote.

If veterans become peacekeepers for the OCCUPY movement, the question becomes rather critical ... Will police still obey orders from 'Wall Street' if it means facing soldiers?

So you, like jaycee, think that "veterans" who join occupy protesters could result in the local police force facing off against "soldiers"? This plot needs to be tweaked a wee bit.

[GostHacked]

Not just the so-called elite. These protesters don't speak for me, and don't speak for a lot of people. They just pretend to.

You can't even speak for yourself most of the time.

[Shady]

You can't even speak for yourself most of the time.

Good point. But I don't claim to be the voice of 99% of the population like these idiots do.

[GostHacked]

Let's have another look at what jaycee wrote.

If veterans become peacekeepers for the OCCUPY movement, the question becomes rather critical ... Will police still obey orders from 'Wall Street' if it means facing soldiers?

Let me clarify, I was responding to in Jaycee's first question of 'who gives the police orders'.

So you, like jaycee, think that "veterans" who join occupy protesters could result in the local police force facing off against "soldiers"? This plot needs to be tweaked a wee bit.

That is not what I said, or meant. I said the key was the police and the military and what side they choose to be on.

Edited November 2, 2011 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

Good point. But I don't claim to be the voice of 99% of the population like these idiots do.

No you are definitely in a percentage all your own. I guess we can't count on your for any real change, or thought for that matter.

[bush_cheney2004]

....So you, like jaycee, think that "veterans" who join occupy protesters could result in the local police force facing off against "soldiers"? This plot needs to be tweaked a wee bit.

Laughable, as anybody who knows about police and other peace officers recognizes that many are "veterans" and "soldiers". What nonsense....police arrest "soldiers" on a routine basis. Bring it...

[capricorn]

However, they're barely noticable, especially in Canada.

In Ottawa, the occupy movement is fast becoming about what is going on in this camp rather than any protester message. Like how criminal activity is handled (or not) by the organizers and the increasing safety hazards to occupiers and citizens passing by.

The most serious incidient, the alleged sexual assault, resulted in street justice, with the alleged perpetrator being dragged in his tent out of the park and into the street, while the secuirty committee worked with the victim to decide on the best course of action. From the very beginning, the movement has worked with the police, and, when necessary, called them into the camp to ensure everyone's safety. However, with their numbers growing, risks are elevated and not everyone will have the same opinion as to the best way to ensure safety. This is complicated when drugs and alcohol become involved, even though the demonstration has a strict no alcohol and no drugs policy.

Speaking with one of the organizers today, it is clear that they take all these incidents seriously, though they claim that not all the information that is reaching the media is accurate. Aside from preparing for winter, safety in the camp has become the paramount concern. The organizers understand that with any rapidly-growing community, there are going to be problems, but there is confidence in the camp that these issues will be dealt with by the community at large and, when necessary, by the police.

http://www.examiner.com/civil-rights-in-ottawa/growing-pains-at-occupy-ottawa

The first day of the Occupy movement attracted a broad audience. I looked around the crowd and saw a demographically diverse group interested in this international movement, curious as to how it would develop.

However once the rubberneckers and champagne socialists went home (some within days, most within hours) the movement lost all credibility and descended into a mess. That went on for a couple weeks with everyone wondering how it would develop. Now it’s descended from a mess into lawlessness.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2011/11/02/city-police-ncc-failing-when-it-comes-to-occupy-movement

There have been three cases of sexual assault on top of several violent assaults within their small community.

But police have no record of these incidents.

“The only calls we’ve had are disturbances,” said Ottawa police Const. Mark Soucy.

The movement has a First Aid and Safety Committee and they prefer to deal with the assaults on their own.

“(Calling the police) is not our first step,” said Safety Committee member Adam Smolcic.

“It’s really up to the victim if they feel it’s a pertinent issue, of course they have the right to call the police and the community supports that whole heartedly.”

According to Smolcic, one incident continued to occur, so Occupy members removed the person in question from the park themselves.

“If we can do it appropriately and non-violently without the police we prefer to do that — of course any police incidents look badly on the entire community here and we’d like to avoid that,” he said.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2011/11/02/ncc-lets-occupy-stay-despite-police-presence

Many Canadians don't realize that the occupy movement in Ottawa is camped out on National Capital Commission land which their tax dollars pay for. Their tax dollars will also pay for the reported damage to the property after the occupiers move on. And of course, the NCC being the landowner is a handy excuse for local politicians to avoid getting involved with the "growing community".

[jacee]

Let's have another look at what jaycee wrote.

If veterans become peacekeepers for the OCCUPY movement, the question becomes rather critical ... Will police still obey orders from 'Wall Street' if it means facing soldiers?

So you, like jaycee, think that "veterans" who join occupy protesters could result in the local police force facing off against "soldiers"? This plot needs to be tweaked a wee bit.

It's a valid question, given current events:

From previous post

here

... some veterans were organizing to be "peacekeepers" and maintain "perimeter security."

"As vets, I think it is our job to protect our community through teachings of nonviolence and defensive measures like how to protect yourself from unprovoked police attacks."

NEW YORK — About 100 military veterans are joining the Occupy Wall Street protest by marching in uniform through Manhattan. The march began Wednesday at the Vietnam Veterans Plaza near Wall Street. The protesters planned to end at the Zuccotti Park encampment.

Police separated them from the entrance of the New York Stock Exchange. The marchers are fired up by what they call brutality against a Marine veteran in Oakland, Calif., whose skull was fractured.

In New York, Marine Sgt. Shamar Thomas went toe to toe with officers policing activists in Times Square recently.

Veterans March For Occupy Wall Street — And It's Like Nothing You've Ever Seen Before

Edited November 3, 2011 by jacee

[cybercoma]

Imagine, The Sun focusing more on criticizing the movement rather than the actual problems the movement is trying to highlight.

[capricorn]

Imagine, The Sun focusing more on criticizing the movement rather than the actual problems the movement is trying to highlight.

Silly me. The Sun's news coverage is unadulterated and you're not used to that. Here, let me present you the CBC's sanitized video version of those internal problems that will be more to your liking.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/10/28/ottawa-occupy-protest-divide.html

Edited November 2, 2011 by capricorn

[Shady]

I guess we can't count on your for any real change

What are we changing? And what are we changing to?

[bush_cheney2004]

What are we changing? And what are we changing to?

They don't know, but somebody else gets to pay for it.