Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcar

[guyser]

Uh no. That is incorrect . More returned than left.

Did some come back twice?

Yikes....ok the net gain was in our favour. ( 56 IIRC)

[mikedavid00]

Do your research before you post. Learn something for God's sake about the American healthcare and Immigration system.

Why don't you follow your own advice?

The rate of uninsured Hispanics, who may be of any race, was 32.4 percent in 2002 higher than any other racial or ethnic group, but unchanged from 2001. (non citizens)

The proportion of the foreign-born population without health insurance (33.4 percent was more than double that of the native population (12.8 percent). (non citizens)

The health insurance coverage rates for non-Hispanic whites who reported a single race was 89.3 percent.

Young adults (18-to-24 years old) were less likely than other age groups to have health insurance coverage 70.4 percent in 2002. This compares with 82.3 percent for those 25-to-64 years old and 99.2 percent for those 65 and over, reflecting widespread Medicare coverage.

Thanks for making me waste 18 min re-looking up these cites.

[mikedavid00]

40 million Americans have no access to ANY government program.

Could it be... that.. they are NOT CITIZENS? Students, Work Visa's, and Illegal Immigrants?

This is WHY no one is complaining in the US! Everyone knows these people ae not entitled to healtchare and they certainly do not trust their gov't to run the program. People are HAPPY with their healthcare.

Even on Moores file we were thinking 'geez.. couldn't he find anyone better to feature?'

Just the fact that Moore couldn't even find people who were proven wrong done by the healthcare system is very telling of how good their system is.

Actually, American's voted AGAINST raising TOBACO taxes in order to fund healthcare. Any sane person would never do this unless they were already very happy with their system. And not only this, this was LEFTY California that did this. Here is a must see for anyone who has not seen beyond the CBC or do not understand how it's like to live in the US and literally vote for your own taxes:

http://easylink.playstream.com/healthvote/spending.rm

[Riverwind]

these cites.

That link supports my claim - not yours.

If you look at the raw data here: http://usgovinfo.about.com/gi/dynamic/offs...ubs/p60-223.pdf

You will see that less than 30% of the uninsured fell into the 18-24 range. That means that 70% of the people without health insurance we not 'young adults' choosing to go without insurance. If you look at the report you will see the majority of the people without insurance were the working poor (welfare bums get government insurance).

[August1991]

Flipping through this thread, I noted this post from Riverwind to Bush/Cheney:

You also evaded the question: you had no problems with government funded care when you were in the army. Why are you afraid of the same care being extended to all Americans?

In a sense, it's the heart of this thread and it's unfortunate that B/C never offered a reply. IMV, B/C lost the argument.

----

I liked Guyser's post above and his suggestion about ER having the ability to tell people to get lost. I happen to like user fees for that reason.

We use health care the same way we fix our cars. There is routine maintenance every 8000 kms (usually paid by the owner) and there is a warranty for catastrophic problems (paid for by the manufacturer).

IOW, health care is all about health insurance and in particular, catastrophic health insurance.

The problem with any insurance scheme is asymmetric information and this can lead to horrible inefficiencies. For something like health care, universal coverage makes sense.

Finally, it is wrong to say that Americans like their health care system. Clinton was elected in part in 1992 on a promise to reform it. Reforming the US health care system is hard to impossible.

[Riverwind]

40 million Americans have no access to ANY government program.

Could it be... that.. they are NOT CITIZENS? Students, Work Visa's, and Illegal Immigrants?

40% of the the un-insured were not naturalized citizens but that does not mean they did not have a green card. Even if you exclude non-citizens you still have more that 32 million American citizens with no coverage from any government program (stats from your link).

I find it hard to believe that those 32 million americans are 'happy with their healthcare'.

[mikedavid00]

Practically no one "waits" for healthcare in this country , all things considered.

Honestly sometimes when you post I think that you don't live in Canada, but rather on another planet!

[bush_cheney2004]

In a sense, it's the heart of this thread and it's unfortunate that B/C never offered a reply. IMV, B/C lost the argument.

Do all Americans serve in the US Armed Forces? I think not.

I also recall that some Canadian Forces personnel have Blue Cross Blue Shield insurance. How do you reconcile this difference compared to all Canadians?

[August1991]

Do all Americans serve in the US Armed Forces? I think not.

But you benefited from a State-organized health care system and you even described it as good. You then claimed that Americans don't want socialist commie health care.

I call that a major contradiction.

[bush_cheney2004]

Practically no one "waits" for healthcare in this country , all things considered.

Honestly sometimes when you post I think that you don't live in Canada, but rather on another planet!

I guess it is unpatriotic to call it "waiting"...instead, it is accepting responsibility and privilege as a good citizen to preserve and ration scarce health care resources, just as all Canadians do...ummm...well...except for the ones with insurance or cash.

[bush_cheney2004]

Do all Americans serve in the US Armed Forces? I think not.

But you benefited from a State-organized health care system and you even described it as good. You then claimed that Americans don't want socialist commie health care.

I call that a major contradiction.

And I call your assertion ignorance...my "health care system" as a member of the armed forces consisted of an embarked Navy Hospital Corpsman (HM). They were not communists...but they did stand watches.

We called him "Doc".

[mikedavid00]

40 million Americans have no access to ANY government program.

Could it be... that.. they are NOT CITIZENS? Students, Work Visa's, and Illegal Immigrants?

40% of the the un-insured were not naturalized citizens but that does not mean

Let this be a note to everyone that once again I prove myself right and back my claims up with facts that I have spent MANY, MANY hours in the past researching.

Facts are, Americans get healthcare and believe it or not actually pay LESS than we do because the majority of them have their employers paying it for them. I however, pay 20% of all my taxes to healtchare which is why my taxes or so high.

Take 45% of your GROSS income, then take 25% of that number, and that's how much you are paying in each month towards healthcare.

It isn't free. We all pay for it and don't kid yourself. There's a REASON our taxes are so high.

Increasingly, my taxes are paying for people who have not paid into the system like the Pakistani lady in a full burka down the street who cannot speak English to get her eye surgery literally 2 weeks after ariving in Canada because she has a relative who works at a hospital and got her ahead of the list (true story I was going to call the media but didn't have her name so let it drop).

[gc1765]

Facts are, Americans get healthcare and believe it or not actually pay LESS than we do because the majority of them have their employers paying it for them. I however, pay 20% of all my taxes to healtchare which is why my taxes or so high.

Employers do no such thing. Employees pay for it through lower wages.

[Riverwind]

Let this be a note to everyone that once again I prove myself right and back my claims up with facts that I have spent MANY, MANY hours in the past researching.

Rubbish - your own links demonstrated that the only a MINORITY of uninsured were non-citizens. Even if you exlcude those people there are still 32 million uninsured American citizens. Furthermore, many of the non-citizens are likely legal workers that pay the same taxes and should be entitled to access government programs. Your only links also demonstrated that you claims regarding number of uninsured in the 18-24 range were completely wrong.

Take 45% of your GROSS income, then take 25% of that number, and that's how much you are paying in each month towards healthcare.

Almost nobody pays 45% of their gross income in taxes (the Fraiser institute numbers are a gross exagerration). Most people will pay less than 30%. Furthermore, the taxes in many US states are actually higher that taxes in some Canadian provinces (source National Post article - need find link).

[jdobbin]

I saw the movie Sicko over the weekend. I thought it was entertaining. There was definitely a few sad cases presented. I know you can't take all of it at face value but it certainly made me more interested in comparing health systems world-wide.

We had two major health studies done in the last number of years. A few changes were made but we still have a lot of those ideas sitting on the shelf.

I would hope that a formula for successful delivery of healthcare services can be reached in much the same way that problems with CPP were solved.

[ScottSA]

Almost nobody pays 45% of their gross income in taxes (the Fraiser institute numbers are a gross exagerration). Most people will pay less than 30%. Furthermore, the taxes in many US states are actually higher that taxes in some Canadian provinces (source National Post article - need find link).

I do. Most of my clients did. Almost anyone in Canada who's not living in a tent is in a marginal tax rate of that or more, and anyone with a half-decent job is paying an effective tax rate of around that percentage. Add various user fees, deduction interest, and GST to that and you probably do too.

[bush_cheney2004]

What insurance company do you work for. How many food banks do you support?

I do not work for an insurance company. I support several food banks directly, and others through the United Way. Sometimes I even help "poor" Canadians beat the much hated GST on eBay sales by declaring items below there actual value!

[Riverwind]

I do. Most of my clients did.

Wow. You must be making more than 500K per year.

Almost anyone in Canada who's not living in a tent is in a marginal tax rate of that or more, and anyone with a half-decent job is paying an effective tax rate of around that percentage. Add various user fees, deduction interest, and GST to that and you probably do too.

Not even close. If you have access to a payroll tax program (CCRA has one available for download). You can quickly calculate the total tax, CPP and EI bill for an employee with various incomes. You can then take the after tax income and subtract the local sales tax. The number will give you the maximum possible tax bill. However, very few people will pay that much because they spend money on things like rent and food which do not have sales tax applied. Lower income people also get the GST rebate.

If you add it up someone making less that 50K will pay less than 30% of their income in taxes. Someone making 100K in BC will pay less than 40% (even less if they make RRSP contributions).

You are repeating a myth. Marginal rates are 45%+ in many provinces but that does not mean that people pay anything close to that rate as a percentage of their total income.

[August1991]

And I call your assertion ignorance...my "health care system" as a member of the armed forces consisted of an embarked Navy Hospital Corpsman (HM). They were not communists...but they did stand watches.

We called him "Doc".

I call my GP "Michelle". What does that prove?

The fact is US military medical care is a top-down organization owned and operated by the government. It provides universal health care to users.

Even the Canadian system is not as socialist as that. In Canada, I chose Michelle and if I didn't like her, I could go elsewhere. In the US military, what happens if you think "Doc" is quack?

Almost nobody pays 45% of their gross income in taxes (the Fraiser institute numbers are a gross exagerration). Most people will pay less than 30%. Furthermore, the taxes in many US states are actually higher that taxes in some Canadian provinces (source National Post article - need find link).

I do. Most of my clients did. Almost anyone in Canada who's not living in a tent is in a marginal tax rate of that or more, and anyone with a half-decent job is paying an effective tax rate of around that percentage. Add various user fees, deduction interest, and GST to that and you probably do too.

On average, Canadians pay about half of their income in various taxes and governments fees. OTOH, they receve back about half that in government transfers of various sorts. As a result, on average, we fork over about 25% of our income.

Since that's an average amount, and rich people pay more, I'm with Riverwind on this argument. Few if any Canadians pay 45% of their income in taxes.

And ScottSA, don't confuse marginal and average. There's a big difference.

I would hope that a formula for successful delivery of healthcare services can be reached in much the same way that problems with CPP were solved.

The CPP was solved by raising regressive contributions. Access to CPP payments are limited by age, and claims of disability.

Access to health care as unlimited as the imaginings of any hypochondriac. I figure one reason our health costs are rising is that there are more older, lonely people who want some quality attention and have the time to wait to get it.

Increasingly, my taxes are paying for people who have not paid into the system like the Pakistani lady in a full burka down the street who cannot speak English to get her eye surgery literally 2 weeks after ariving in Canada because she has a relative who works at a hospital and got her ahead of the list (true story I was going to call the media but didn't have her name so let it drop).

You gotta love MikeDave. Everything is the fault of those damned immigrants.

Anyway MD, you lost that stats argument with Riverwind. While many of the Americans without coverage are young, many of them are old too.

Americans without coverage are only part of the problem. Even those with Medicare suffer from all the problems we in Canada have, if not more so. They still lose their house to qualify for assistance. And those with bad HMOs are just as badly off.

One reason Canada still has an automobile industry is because auto makers don't have to pick up the extra health insurance costs. IOW, we do it cheaper here.

[jdobbin]

The CPP was solved by raising regressive contributions. Access to CPP payments are limited by age, and claims of disability.

Access to health care as unlimited as the imaginings of any hypochondriac. I figure one reason our health costs are rising is that there are more older, lonely people who want some quality attention and have the time to wait to get it.

CPP was headed for a crash until reforms. Now it is funded for the next 75 years. Canada is one of only a few countries in the world that have resolved this problem.

I'd like to see the same sort of effort made on healthcare.

[bush_cheney2004]

I call my GP "Michelle". What does that prove?

The fact is US military medical care is a top-down organization owned and operated by the government. It provides universal health care to users.

Even the Canadian system is not as socialist as that. In Canada, I chose Michelle and if I didn't like her, I could go elsewhere. In the US military, what happens if you think "Doc" is quack?

To equate "universal health care" for military forces only furthers the absurdity of your argument. Preventative and primary care for military personnel is driven by mission and combat readiness, not a socialist-commie utopia for healthcare. Military dependents are covered because of their status, not "universal" benefit.

[August1991]

CPP was headed for a crash until reforms. Now it is funded for the next 75 years. Canada is one of only a few countries in the world that have resolved this problem.

I'd like to see the same sort of effort made on healthcare.

Nonsense, and double nonsense. At the risk of thread hijack, you miss the point Dobbin.

When the Liberals raised CPP rates, they simply raised taxes - and they did this on the poorest people of all. The working poor.

CPP is not a pension scheme - it is a transfer scheme. We take from some and give to others. The idea that it should be "properly funded" is both crazy and political smoke-and-mirrors.

The one advantage of the CPP is that there are strict rules on how anyone can access it. That means the government doesn't have problems with rising costs (with the possible exception of rising disability claims).

This doesn't apply to health care. Anyone with an ailment (imaginary or real) can access health care. The costs have no limit.

[Riverwind]

CPP is not a pension scheme - it is a transfer scheme. We take from some and give to others. The idea that it should be "properly funded" is both crazy and political smoke-and-mirrors.

Why is the CPP, as it currently stands, any different from a private sector pension fund? (I agree that when it was first set up early retirees got a lot more than they should have if it was a proper pension plan).

[bush_cheney2004]

One reason Canada still has an automobile industry is because auto makers don't have to pick up the extra health insurance costs. IOW, we do it cheaper here.

Correct...and you get what you pay for. Good luck with that!

[August1991]

To equate "universal health care" for military forces only furthers the absurdity of your argument. Preventative and primary care for military personnel is driven by mission and combat readiness, not a socialist-commie utopia for healthcare. Military dependents are covered because of their status, not "universal" benefit.

The government hires a bunch of doctors and medical personnel and then tells them to provide services for free to a bunch of other people. No one has much choice in whether you get to see Doctor A or B, and Doctor A or B doesn't have much choice in seeing person Y or Z.

Only Stalin could have dreamed up such a system. We don't even have it in Canada.

But you B/C seem to think it's great.

I guess you don't like the words. I won't call it "socialism" and instead we'll refer to "national service".