The new face of hate

[jennie]

The new face of hate

The swaggering skinheads and marching jackboots have all but vanished, but make no mistake: The poisonous ideology of white supremacy is alive and well in Canada. Sun Media's Laura Czekaj probes the suave new look that belies an ancient animosity

A meaty security guard blocks the entrance and waves a beeping metal-detecting wand over the suit-and-tie-clad spectators.

Beyond the frosted glass doors in the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal hearing room stands another security guard, arms crossed, eyes trained on the spacious room, its mass is exaggerated by the few people occupying it.

A tribunal member is running the show and lawyers are taking their turns spouting protocol.

All the while, a man sits in the audience, his cleanly shaved head gleaming as brightly as his freshly polished jack boots, which stick out from under the cuffs of his black dress pants.

This man is a visible reminder of what the neo-Nazi movement in Canada once looked like. A daunting demeanour paired with an almost uniform attire worn by shiny-domed males giving the Nazi salute and yelling "Seig Heil."

But this man and the images he conjures are far removed from the white supremacist movement today.

Marc Lemire is well-groomed, with a full head of hair, a sky-blue dress shirt and neatly pressed beige pants. His presence is non-threatening and appears much closer akin to a school teacher or computer programmer than a "white nationalist."

... http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2007...519174-sun.html

I admit to some fascination with the white supremacists. They blare loudly about things that polite Canadians don't discuss. Are they right? Do a lot of people agree with them? I don't know. I wouldn't think so but I have been wrong before. I understand there are about 3000 who 'belong' to such a group across Canada, likely not enough for any kind of political power, but who knows if proportionate representationMMP becomes federal.

They end up in front of the Human Rights Tribunal often because of the content of their websites which arguably promote hatred against (some) 'immigrants', aboriginal, black and Jewish people. Promoting hatred is illegal in Canada, though distinguishing it from free speech is a challenge. The WS's think they should be free to express their 'opinion' about people of other ethnicities.

How do we distinguish 'promoting hatred' from 'free speech'?

[Posit]

The new face of hate

The swaggering skinheads and marching jackboots have all but vanished, but make no mistake: The poisonous ideology of white supremacy is alive and well in Canada. Sun Media's Laura Czekaj probes the suave new look that belies an ancient animosity

A meaty security guard blocks the entrance and waves a beeping metal-detecting wand over the suit-and-tie-clad spectators.

Beyond the frosted glass doors in the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal hearing room stands another security guard, arms crossed, eyes trained on the spacious room, its mass is exaggerated by the few people occupying it.

A tribunal member is running the show and lawyers are taking their turns spouting protocol.

All the while, a man sits in the audience, his cleanly shaved head gleaming as brightly as his freshly polished jack boots, which stick out from under the cuffs of his black dress pants.

This man is a visible reminder of what the neo-Nazi movement in Canada once looked like. A daunting demeanour paired with an almost uniform attire worn by shiny-domed males giving the Nazi salute and yelling "Seig Heil."

But this man and the images he conjures are far removed from the white supremacist movement today.

Marc Lemire is well-groomed, with a full head of hair, a sky-blue dress shirt and neatly pressed beige pants. His presence is non-threatening and appears much closer akin to a school teacher or computer programmer than a "white nationalist."

... http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2007...519174-sun.html

I admit to some fascination with the white supremacists. They blare loudly about things that polite Canadians don't discuss. Are they right? Do a lot of people agree with them? I don't know. I wouldn't think so but I have been wrong before. I understand there are about 3000 who 'belong' to such a group across Canada, likely not enough for any kind of political power, but who knows if proportionate representationMMP becomes federal.

They end up in front of the Human Rights Tribunal often because of the content of their websites which arguably promote hatred against (some) 'immigrants', aboriginal, black and Jewish people. Promoting hatred is illegal in Canada, though distinguishing it from free speech is a challenge. The WS's think they should be free to express their 'opinion' about people of other ethnicities.

How do we distinguish 'promoting hatred' from 'free speech'?

Look Jenny. You're playing their song.....

[jefferiah]

The new face of hate

The swaggering skinheads and marching jackboots have all but vanished, but make no mistake: The poisonous ideology of white supremacy is alive and well in Canada. Sun Media's Laura Czekaj probes the suave new look that belies an ancient animosity

A meaty security guard blocks the entrance and waves a beeping metal-detecting wand over the suit-and-tie-clad spectators.

Beyond the frosted glass doors in the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal hearing room stands another security guard, arms crossed, eyes trained on the spacious room, its mass is exaggerated by the few people occupying it.

A tribunal member is running the show and lawyers are taking their turns spouting protocol.

All the while, a man sits in the audience, his cleanly shaved head gleaming as brightly as his freshly polished jack boots, which stick out from under the cuffs of his black dress pants.

This man is a visible reminder of what the neo-Nazi movement in Canada once looked like. A daunting demeanour paired with an almost uniform attire worn by shiny-domed males giving the Nazi salute and yelling "Seig Heil."

But this man and the images he conjures are far removed from the white supremacist movement today.

Marc Lemire is well-groomed, with a full head of hair, a sky-blue dress shirt and neatly pressed beige pants. His presence is non-threatening and appears much closer akin to a school teacher or computer programmer than a "white nationalist."

... http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2007...519174-sun.html

I admit to some fascination with the white supremacists. They blare loudly about things that polite Canadians don't discuss. Are they right? Do a lot of people agree with them? I don't know. I wouldn't think so but I have been wrong before. I understand there are about 3000 who 'belong' to such a group across Canada, likely not enough for any kind of political power, but who knows if proportionate representationMMP becomes federal.

They end up in front of the Human Rights Tribunal often because of the content of their websites which arguably promote hatred against (some) 'immigrants', aboriginal, black and Jewish people. Promoting hatred is illegal in Canada, though distinguishing it from free speech is a challenge. The WS's think they should be free to express their 'opinion' about people of other ethnicities.

How do we distinguish 'promoting hatred' from 'free speech'?

It should all be free speech unless someone is calling for and conspiring to commit acts of violence. I do not agree with them, but that doesn't mean they should not be able to express their opinions. We should trust people to make their own judgements about what they hear and read.

Edited September 23, 2007 by jefferiah

[ScottSA]

How do we distinguish 'promoting hatred' from 'free speech'?

You don't. Free speech is self evidently free speech. Parsing it out and making exceptions makes it not free. The only jackbooted totalitarian in this story is the "Human Rights Tribunal." Why does the left have such a hard time allowing people to think for themselves? I realize that some of the left's ideas are so out to lunch that they have to protect them behind legality in order for anyone to take them even slightly seriously, but to posit disagreement or opinion as "hate" is quite something. In fact, why shouldn't people have the right to "hate" if that's what tickles their fancy?

I think we should stop immigration. I think we should stop immigration for a number of reasons, both genetic (as already discussed), cultural, and for social cohesion. I think Indians in Caledonia should be forcibly expelled with loss of life if necessary. I have no idea whether saying so is "promoting hate" according to these "human rights" goons, but I certainly won't stop saying it.

[Michael Hardner]

You don't. Free speech is self evidently free speech. Parsing it out and making exceptions makes it not free. The only jackbooted totalitarian in this story is the "Human Rights Tribunal." Why does the left have such a hard time allowing people to think for themselves? I realize that some of the left's ideas are so out to lunch that they have to protect them behind legality in order for anyone to take them even slightly seriously, but to posit disagreement or opinion as "hate" is quite something. In fact, why shouldn't people have the right to "hate" if that's what tickles their fancy?

Hey Scott,

It all comes down to "the left's" view of society, which is identical to yours in that you think that there are a lot of stupid, and easily led people out there.

Being a student of history, as you are, (.... sorry ... a master teacher of all recorded events of world history ...) you know that it has happened time and again that certain groups blame certain other groups in society for their problems. The results can be horrifying, I don't need to tell you.

Hate laws are a tool to prevent that from happening, and that's all. They need to be used carefully, it's true, but we're better off having them.

You, being a squeaky wheel forever needing grease, don't care that such laws provide a safeguard for minorities because they might prevent you from using the n-word in mixed company. Sorry to restrict your freedom, Scott.

Cheers,

[Leafless]

It is a disturbing situation what is happening in the U.S. and Canada, the majority White culture being taken over by real supremacist, ethnics free loading off of the White culture and transposing their culture.

And they wonder why the White culture is protective of their minority culture.

It always amazes me about foreign cultures hating the White culture and labelling them White supremacist simply because they became successful and controlled business of the free world and assumed if you are not 'White' you are a nobody.

Let's call a spade a spade, the true hate in North America is, ethnic intolerance against the 'White English speaking Christian culture' period and many White citizens are trying to ensure ethnic dominance will never be a reality.

[kimmy]

It's this type of seemingly rational, thought-provoking argument that makes those who call themselves "white nationalist" so appealing to some Canadians who are concerned about the government's handling of immigration policies, or whose views on crime are stoked by reports of gang shootings in Toronto.

"When there's an incident where there's the potential for people of colour or racialized minorities to be targeted, you find the white supremacist groups or individuals use it as an excuse to perpetrate even more hatred," says Mock.

I suspect that Ms Mock would prefer to not discuss racial gangs in Toronto or immigration issues at all. It might cause people to feel uncomfortable. Let's hide our heads in the sand and pretend it's not there.

I am also curious as to what makes someone a "white supremacist". It doesn't actually appear to involve any claim of superiority anymore. Apparently being concerned about race-related issues, if you're white, puts you dangerously close to some peoples' definition of a white supremacist.

-k

[Michael Hardner]

It is a disturbing situation what is happening in the U.S. and Canada, the majority White culture being taken over by real supremacist, ethnics free loading off of the White culture and transposing their culture.

And they wonder why the White culture is protective of their minority culture.

It always amazes me about foreign cultures hating the White culture and labelling them White supremacist simply because they became successful and controlled business of the free world and assumed if you are not 'White' you are a nobody.

Let's call a spade a spade, the true hate in North America is, ethnic intolerance against the 'White English speaking Christian culture' period and many White citizens are trying to ensure ethnic dominance will never be a reality.

Leafless,

Your accusations have no foundation in reality. When pressed, I'm sure you'll come up with some anecdotal 'evidence'. Immigrants continue to build this country, as they always have.

[betsy]

There is some truths in what Leafless had said.

This multi-culturalism is only adding fuel to the fire. It is building resentment. In some ancient post I've made, I expressed my concern that the supremacists will be able to lure more to look at things from their own point of view.

[Michael Hardner]

Betsy,

It is building resentment.

Do you have evidence of this, or is it just an observation ?

Not to say that your observations aren't valid, only that mine are just the opposite. Of course, I live in Toronto.

[Wilber]

I think we should stop immigration. I think we should stop immigration for a number of reasons, both genetic (as already discussed), cultural, and for social cohesion. I think Indians in Caledonia should be forcibly expelled with loss of life if necessary. I have no idea whether saying so is "promoting hate" according to these "human rights" goons, but I certainly won't stop saying it.

Except that with a birth rate of 1.57 children per woman, Canadians will become extinct within 5 generations without immigration.

[betsy]

Betsy,

Do you have evidence of this, or is it just an observation ?

Not to say that your observations aren't valid, only that mine are just the opposite. Of course, I live in Toronto.

I have no evidence. But it is normal reaction. If you had gone to my original country and start demanding our ways back there be changed to suit yours...if we see our own culture being swamped...I would resent you.

[Michael Hardner]

Betsy,

So you're not Canadian either ? Or are you an immigrant ?

What country are you from ?

Is this a case where you want to 'close the door behind you' so to speak ?

[betsy]

Betsy,

So you're not Canadian either ? Or are you an immigrant ?

What country are you from ?

Is this a case where you want to 'close the door behind you' so to speak ?

I am from the Philippines. I am a Canadian now.

What do you mean by "close the door behind me?"

Edited September 23, 2007 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

Betsy,

I may have pigeonholed you without cause. Sorry if I did.

I took this comment of yours to indicate that you're anti-immigration: "This multi-culturalism is only adding fuel to the fire. "

[betsy]

Betsy,

I may have pigeonholed you without cause. Sorry if I did.

I took this comment of yours to indicate that you're anti-immigration: "This multi-culturalism is only adding fuel to the fire. "

I am not anti-immigration. But I do want a closely screened immigration policy.

A lot of ethnic minorities I've talked to (asians and blacks and latinos)...we seem to share the same opinion: we came to this country, therefore we adapt to it.

So all these ridiculous demands for more cultural rights must be coming from radical activists or those who stand to gain by something.

[old_bold&cold]

It is the USA that was called the great melting pot, when talk about ethnic cultures coming and building there. Canada while very much like the USA, had already given into the French culture here and openly accepted them as they were. We have had many mass migrations and much of the country of Canada can be looked at as cultural basins. The West had a very large Ukranian content. Southern Ontario had vast italian content as well as German and other european nations. We did not have a large black population but yes they were there sparsely throughout it all. Many of these cultures adapted to Canada but still kept some of their own customs etc.. Nobody pushed their customs on others, but then came many visible minorities who did push and holler very loud about not getting the same breaks as other immigrant. Some of this was true but the largest part was not. The trouble though was we could not tell who was and wasn't legit. So we gave them all special status, and that is where it has gone wrong. I am all for equal status but not special status. This is where I believe the seeds of hate were planted.

If you wnat to come to Canada, and we do need the immigration, we must insist that you melt in and adapt to our laws and ways no matter what religion you are. If you can not, then you should not be allowed here. Before everyone goes screaming religious freedom, remember that we have the law of the land and that exceeds all laws of god or alla or any religion. If you want to come here that has to be a given. We are not the society of the past where visible minorities need special status, and that should be removed as well, but most of all once you are a Canadian citizen we expect you to put our country first and foremost in your allegences. If any immigrant can not do that then we do not need them.

[ScottSA]

I can't understand the legs on the myth that we 'need' immigration. Why? The conomic argument is specious at best and dishonest at worst, and in any event the only people that use it anymore are the folks who formulated their arguments a decade ago and haven't kept up to speed. If that were true, the sever post world war I decline would have finished us all off about the time of WW II. But even allowing for a moment that we need immigration for economic reasons, what does that say about our own society? Why are WE not replacing our population? Why do we have to rely on others to do it for us? It's a pathology I suspect.

I believe that this immigration thing grew its own legs and now we're conducting immigration for no better reason than for the sake of immigration...the mindless perception that it's somehow fair to open the floodgates and let the barabarians flood across the Danube. It's insane and it's time it stopped.

[Wilber]

I can't understand the legs on the myth that we 'need' immigration.

We need immigration because too many of us chose not to renew our population. The the reasons may vary and be subject to debate but the numbers are not very complicated. Any post WW1 decline was due to a large portion of the male population who would have normaly been raising families, ending up being buried in France, not because of changed attitudes towards having children.

[Higgly]

I think we should stop immigration. I think we should stop immigration for a number of reasons, both genetic (as already discussed), cultural, and for social cohesion. I think Indians in Caledonia should be forcibly expelled with loss of life if necessary. I have no idea whether saying so is "promoting hate" according to these "human rights" goons, but I certainly won't stop saying it.

Heh heh. The veritable Shakespearean petard. I love it.

ScottSA, they're waiting for you in the oilfields and construction sites of Alberta. Swing those hammers! All thousands of them! Weld those welds! All thousands of them!

Homespun is better, right? Of course an old India hand like you will know what that means and what it lead to. I'm looking for you on the Streets of Canada, ScottSA, driving your 1954 Fiat replica.

Heh, heh.

[Leafless]

Leafless,

Your accusations have no foundation in reality. When pressed, I'm sure you'll come up with some anecdotal 'evidence'. Immigrants continue to build this country, as they always have.

To-days immigrants are not the same as immigrants of the past who have indeed built Canada.

Immigration to Canada were basically White Christian Europeans who came to Canada with nothing or very little and who were not protected by any health care plan, welfare, or other State policy.

These immigrants had the same political and religious ideologies as other Canadian citizens and therefore harmonized with the existing Canadian population.

To-day immigration mostly is the ethnic variety whose political and religious ideologies DO NOT harmonize with the ideologies of the existing population, thanks to the 'Charter of rights and Freedoms' that actually work against maintaining our current majority Canadian culture dominated by 'White English speaking Christian Canadians' and other cultures who willingly participate with this main culture.

To-days immigrants step off the plane or boat from their impoverished countries directly into professional occupations or jobs that pay many times better than the jobs they held in their oppressed countries or are treated with programs or benefits that did not exist for our original European immigrants who also did not have access to quality employment in an already ESTABLISHED country.

I would question the reason why officials think Canada must rely on immigration when our main source of income is derived from products obtained by our natural resources that continually increase rather depending on manufacturing like most other countries, where labour could become an issue.

Our schools are turning out graduates in all fields and I think there is something more about the immigration issue that government is not telling the Canadian public.

Or is there truth that immigrants are being used to establish a new low labour rate standard to force majority Canadians to adapt.

This is all the more reason to fight to retain our 'White English speaking Canadian culture'.

[bush_cheney2004]

To-days immigrants are not the same as immigrants of the past who have indeed built Canada.

Immigration to Canada were basically White Christian Europeans who came to Canada with nothing or very little and who were not protected by any health care plan, welfare, or other State policy.

These immigrants had the same political and religious ideologies as other Canadian citizens and therefore harmonized with the existing Canadian population....

Whoa...aren't you being a bit selective? Off the top of my head, I can think of Ukrainians abused by the Crown, as were Chinese, Japanese, etc. Hell, they kicked Acadians out of the country!!

[Higgly]

Whoa...aren't you being a bit selective? Off the top of my head, I can think of Ukrainians abused by the Crown, as were Chinese, Japanese, etc. Hell, they kicked Acadians out of the country!!

Exackly. Every wave of immigrants has been abused in some wy by the current crew. Some got off lightly. Some (like the Chinese) suffered horrribly to give us a better country. The 'Cajuns definitely have a grievance.

[mikedavid00]

I think Indians in Caledonia should be forcibly expelled with loss of life if necessary. I have no idea whether saying so is "promoting hate" according to these "human rights" goons, but I certainly won't stop saying it.

Heheh I agree. I love the loss of life part hehe but I agree with that too.

Jennie I know you were trying to aim that post towards me implying that I'm some sort of racisist becuase I believe that people shouldn't come to Canada unless they have a job lined up and that some ethnicities have a far harder time intigrating with our society.

But people here on the forum for the most part understand that it is not racism.

HOWEVER, If you were new to the forum and were a lamen who never read this stuff and lived in Trudeaus CBC bubble, then these things might come as a shock to someone.

Years back I said on another forum that I felt that immigrants who are NOT Canadians citizens, (perminant residents) should not be granted our healthcare services becuase they are using insurance that they have never paid into and it's draining our system. I also said that if there was a born Canadian, that we should always get first prference to the system and that immigrants citizens or not should not even be elligeable to use it until the have living here for 10 years.

Well, people called me racist, I got kicked from the forum, and someone managed to get the IP address I was posting from and sent an email to my employer saying I was a racist and I violated hate laws.

All becuase I said something which they dissagreed with.

But there's always light at the end of the tunnel. One guy on the forum couldn't undstand why people took issue to Canadians citizens putting themselves first. So he understood.

Things since then (London bombings, planned terrorist attacks on Canada, Tony Blair denouncing multiculturalism, CPC getting in power) have changed the climate in Canada and now you can atleast talk about this stuff openly. But wow just rewing 4 years back it was a completely different social climate in Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

Exackly. Every wave of immigrants has been abused in some wy by the current crew. Some got off lightly. Some (like the Chinese) suffered horrribly to give us a better country. The 'Cajuns definitely have a grievance.

No, they (and others) have no grievance whatsoever. Those that "feel" they do will always fail. It's the price of admission to "racist" countries like Canada or the USA.

Edited September 24, 2007 by bush_cheney2004