Disgraced Politician Questions Trudeau Moral Fiber

[M.Dancer]

The Meech Lake Accord was a set of failed Constitutional amendments hammered out by Mulroney and the 10 premiers, including Quebec's Robert Bourassa, in 1987. The Accord was designed to persuade Quebec to endorse the Canada Act.

Mulroney had hoped to upstage Trudeau, who had failed to persuade Quebec to sign onto the 1981 Constitution after months of debate with the premiers. And it was clear in the interview that the failure of the Accord still troubles Mulroney deeply after 14 years out of office.

Mulroney accuses Trudeau of being jealous of his success in bringing Quebec onside, which is why he said Trudeau and his political followers torpedoed the Accord. He said this view is even supported by one of Trudeau's inner circle.

"One of his cabinet ministers, Francis Fox, said 'Look, the only reason for this, is that Pierre Trudeau doesn't want Brian Mulroney to succeed where he has failed'," Mulroney said.

The Accord died in June 1990, when Newfoundland and Manitoba failed to approve it. The fiasco of Meech ended up generating a sense of disappointment toward the federal system and led many Quebecers to reconsider separation.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...ada&s_name=

While it is bad manners to blame the electorate of Manitoba and Newfoundland, and even less so than to blame yourself on the poor job marketing the accord, it is fully acceptable to blame a dead man, who apparently held a lot of sway with Mainitoba and Newfoundland back then.

But what is outrageous is a politician who has the stink of corruption all over him to suggest that some one else didn't have the morals to lead Canada. Mulroney didn't have the morals to lead, and that's why the Progressive Conservative will never ever be in power again.

[old_bold&cold]

I hate Mulroney as a man, I do not let the fact that he was PM change my view. I met the man at Harrington Lake cottage and I must say he is arrogant and not very clear headed. I like Mila and their dog flower, but Brian is just not likeible. He was well on the way to being drunk when I met him, and he just assumed that everyone was in awe of his presence. I found him distateful in his ways of doing things, but I do not say that all his works were bad. The general idea of fre trade was a worthy goal, that I think later Liberals made into something bad. The GST which was hated by many, if it were to have became the tax it was supposed to, and by that I mean a tax that would replace income taxes and federal taxes, was not all together a bad idea. The trouble is it only replaced the dereal sales tax, and never was really looked at replacing income tax. If it had there would be no real underground economy as we have today. A 15% GST rate could easily replace the income tax, and would generate an even higher income for the government. Those who spend more would pay more tax those who spend less would pay less. It would be a much fairer tax, and not give the rich any loop holes to play with. Which is why the Liberals hated it so much. But as I said I do not think Mulroney was the right man to see it thru and because of his last days in office and the outlandish appointments he made, he pretty much deastroyed any chance at his party being able to govern, and there fore allowed the Liberals to undo much of what was supposed to be a start of things to come. This is what the Liberal fear today from Harper getting a majority. They fear that there may well be plans to follow thru with these old plans. I do not think the Canadian public would frown so badly on such things today if they were brought forward, but yes the business world would not like it as it would plug all those little perks thay have had for so long.

As for the man Mulroney is, all I can say is make sure he never again can hold a powerful place in government. That is one thing I do not like about Harper, and that is he does listen to Brian and his input. Which may not be real bad, but it still makes me worried. As long as Harper does not do any pork barrelling when it is his time to move on then maybe having Mulroney's ear is not so bad. I am not sure how this would play out to the electorate of today, but I think it could be made to be acceptable to most.

[Leafless]

While it is bad manners to blame the electorate of Manitoba and Newfoundland, and even less so than to blame yourself on the poor job marketing the accord, it is fully acceptable to blame a dead man, who apparently held a lot of sway with Mainitoba and Newfoundland back then.

All ten premiers did originally agree on the accord but Meech lake died because these provinces refused to recognize Quebec as 'distinct'.

But what is outrageous is a politician who has the stink of corruption all over him to suggest that some one else didn't have the morals to lead Canada. Mulroney didn't have the morals to lead, and that's why the Progressive Conservative will never ever be in power again.

What is more outrageous than the repatriating of Canada's constitution without Quebec's signature on it, like Trudeau did.

You talk about morals to lead a country.

What makes you think Trudeau had any:

This is a man who questioned the Allies and when the Jews were being sacrificed and when the great extermination program was on -- he was marching around Outremont here on the other side of the issue," said Mulroney.

"He's entitled to make that kind of decision, but it doesn't qualify him for any position of moral leadership in our society.

BTW- Your link doesn't work but this one will:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...9f4&k=16375

[scribblet]

I have to agree with him about Trudeau, but I'm not sure that Mulroney is actually 'disgraced', nothing has been proven, so surely by now something other than mud and smears would have shown up. Not to mention Canada did have the the best economic record under Mulroney.

[M.Dancer]

I have to agree with him about Trudeau, but I'm not sure that Mulroney is actually 'disgraced', nothing has been proven, so surely by now something other than mud and smears would have shown up. Not to mention Canada did have the the best economic record under Mulroney.

'Shocked' Mulroney ordered to pay Schreiber $470K

Katie Rook, CanWest News Service

Published: Thursday, July 26, 2007

TORONTO -- An Ontario court has ordered Brian Mulroney to pay $470,000 to arms dealer Karlheinz Schreiber, a decision a spokesman for the former prime minister Thursday called a "ridiculous" abuse of process.

Schreiber, a lobbyist, consultant and broker of aircraft and armament sales, has been fighting extradition since the RCMP arrested him in 1999 at the request of German prosecutors, who allege he evaded $46-million in income tax from secret commissions he received for brokering aircraft and arms deals.

But he is best known in Canada for connecting Mulroney to the Airbus affair. It involved an RCMP investigation during the 1990s into alleged kickbacks to Mulroney in exchange for then-Crown corporation Air Canada's purchase of Airbus planes in 1988. Schrieber was alleged to have arranged the payments.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...449f&k=3296

...he has the stink corruption

[jazzer]

I have to agree with him about Trudeau, but I'm not sure that Mulroney is actually 'disgraced', nothing has been proven, so surely by now something other than mud and smears would have shown up. Not to mention Canada did have the the best economic record under Mulroney.

I take it you haven't read Peter C. Newman's book.

[margrace]

By blaming someone else for his fiasco shows how small a person Mulroney is. I will never forget how horrified I was to watch him singing Irish Eyes with the Reagans, like joins to like.

[scribblet]

By blaming someone else for his fiasco shows how small a person Mulroney is. I will never forget how horrified I was to watch him singing Irish Eyes with the Reagans, like joins to like.

What fiasco? and I thought they sounded pretty good

Edited September 6, 2007 by scriblett

[Keepitsimple]

Didn't like either of them and I voted for both of them at one time. Trudeau was arrogant beyond belief and Mulroney had the voice of a preacher - he always sounded like he was delivering a sermon. As a former Montrealer, I would have loved to see them rename Mirabel airport in Trudeau's name, instead of lovely old Dorval - after all, he was the driving force behind that particular huge White Elephant.

I know these comments are pretty shallow but why dredge up all the same old arguments, whether real or revisionist.

[geoffrey]

I take it you haven't read Peter C. Newman's book.

Because the guy has a big mouth and talks trash? That means nothing. He had priorities and screw them all he got through them. And Canada is unmeasureably better for it. Without NAFTA, we'd all be dirt poor today. Mulroney set us up for a future as a productive, economic power. 13 years of Liberal rule (and especially the last 1.5 of Conservative) have set us back since.

[Michael Bluth]

Mulroney set us up for a future as a productive, economic power. 13 years of Liberal rule (and especially the last 1.5 of Conservative) have set us back since.

Don't quite get how the last year and a half has set us back at all.

Agreed that we are undeniably better under free trade than we would have been given the alternatives.

[jazzer]

Because the guy has a big mouth and talks trash? That means nothing.

Uh, the only trash came from Mulroney's mouth. Or didn't you realize these were trancripts that Newman published.

Edited September 7, 2007 by jazzer

[geoffrey]

Uh, the only trash came from Mulroney's mouth. Or didn't you realize these were trancripts that Newman published.

No, I read the transcripts. I know Mulroney talked alot of trash, had a bad mouth. Whatever? Since when does that really matter?

You should hear some of the guys in boardrooms and where deals are really made. They aren't always the most polite sounding people.

I really could care less about someone's personality when they are in a spot like the PMO, I care about results. Mulroney had real results. That's more then what can be said about most other politicans, who seem to be more style than substance.

[August1991]

By blaming someone else for his fiasco shows how small a person Mulroney is. I will never forget how horrified I was to watch him singing Irish Eyes with the Reagans, like joins to like.

Like so much of what passes for political discussion in English Canada, Margrace shows that everything is decided by one's views of the US. Margrace is anti-American and since Mulroney got along with Americans, Mulroney is ipso facto a bad guy.

How sad to let one's political views be decided in such a facile way.

I hate Mulroney as a man, I do not let the fact that he was PM change my view. I met the man at Harrington Lake cottage and I must say he is arrogant and not very clear headed. I like Mila and their dog flower, but Brian is just not likeible. He was well on the way to being drunk when I met him, and he just assumed that everyone was in awe of his presence.

I find this declaration unlikely. Mulroney rarely used Harrington Lake for business and to my knowledge, he stopped drinking before he went to Ottawa.

I met Mulroney on several occasions and I will agree that my impression improved with time. (I found with Chretien it was the opposite.)

In any case, Mulroney should not be judged on personal impressions but by what he accomplished. His record stands for itself.

...he has the stink corruption

We discussed this question in the the link Was Brian Mulroney a crook? If you are curious, you can add your points there.

I take it you haven't read Peter C. Newman's book.

If you are thinking of the same book, Newman didn't write it. He just recorded and edited supposedly private conversations with Mulroney. I found Mulroney's opinions refreshing and accurate.

We discussed this in the following link: Secret Mulroney Tapes.

----

I liked this quote of Mulroney's about Trudeau:

One of the great joys of being prime minister was my association with Canada’s military men and women, whose heroic conduct over decades has inspired much admiration at home and around the world. In my mind’s eye I can still see a 75-year-old George Hees, war hero and former minister of veterans affairs, standing ramrod straight beside Canada’s Silver Star mother on Nov. 11 at the cenotaph, the freezing rain dripping down his face as he took the salute on behalf of all the courageous Canadians who had fought and died for freedom.

I have also always regarded those who fought against the Nazis in the Second World War as particularly noble, because in my judgment the Holocaust was the ultimate desecration of humanity. With the Nazis openly persecuting and then slaughtering six million Jews, thank God so many young men and women summoned the courage to fight and overcome this evil force that had infected an entire nation and that was threatening to exterminate an entire people and to enslave so many other nations. From British Columbia all the way east, out of a population of 11 million, one million young Canadians and Newfoundlanders, sensing the danger to our fundamental human values, signed up and shipped off to do battle with a vile and powerful enemy.

Pierre Trudeau was not among them. Although in his mid-20s, well educated, well informed and in excellent health, he declined to serve. While compatriots like Pierre Sevigny, Guy Charbonneau and Paul Sauve were fighting off Nazis on the battlefields of Europe in the summer of 1943, Trudeau and his friends were fighting off blackflies in Outremont. (It is false to suggest, as some bigots have, that all young French-Canadians did likewise. In fact, thousands served bravely throughout the war, in all of its most dangerous theatres, and many were among the 45,000 Canadians who gave their lives.)

I was shocked and disappointed — but not altogether surprised — to learn in a book published in June 2006 by two of his close friends that during this same period young Trudeau wrote and acted in an anti-Semitic play, spoke strongly in favour of fascism, stated that England and Germany were equally responsible for the war and urged Quebecers to resist conscription and to prepare to ethnically cleanse the province, if need be, to ensure the creation of a pure French Catholic state.

"I am a French-Canadian and I am not in favour of conscription," he wrote in 1941, as quoted in Max and Monique Nemni’s prize-winning book Young Trudeau. "I am not only against conscription, but I am also against mobilization, against participation, against re-arming, against aid to the belligerents. I am against the war. Is that quite clear now, or are you again going to play on words?" At that time, Nazi jackboots occupied almost all of Europe.

Speaking of Canadians in favour of conscription to fight the Nazis, he was vitriolic. "The traitors should be impaled alive: We’ll say no more about it, but let’s not forget," Trudeau said at a campaign rally during an Outremont byelection in November 1942. "If Outremont is so infamous that it elects (the federalist candidate), and if because of Outremont conscription for overseas service comes into effect . . . I beg of you to eviscerate all the damned bourgeois of Outremont who voted (for the candidate who believed in Canada’s participation in the war) just to serve their own interests."

Apparently as much in sorrow as in anger, the authors also wrote the following: "Neither in his published articles nor in his private notes did Trudeau give the slightest sign of opposition to the hateful prejudices so prevalent in his world. All told, in comparison to what others were saying and writing, we find that Trudeau could be criticized less for his anti-Jewish writing than for his silence, for his lack of any critical reaction to all the anti-Jewish tirades made by his peers, his teachers and by the authors and the ‘heroes’ for whom he expressed so much admiration."

Trudeau carefully kept secret from Canadians this part of his past (not least from the voters in Mount Royal, a riding with a large Jewish presence, which elected him six times). His official biographer, former Liberal MP and respected historian John English, also published his first volume — Citizen of the World: The Life of Pierre Trudeau — in 2006. He too examined Trudeau’s activities during the 1942 byelection, writing the following: "He minimized the German threat, ridiculed the King government and, according to Le Devoir, said that ‘he feared the peaceful invasion of immigrants more than the armed invasion by the enemy.’ The French of North America would fight when threatened, just as they had fought against the Iroquois; ‘today,’ he scorned, ‘it is against other savages.’ Then Trudeau stated dramatically: the government had irresponsibly declared war even though North America faced no direct threat of an invasion, ‘at the moment when Hitler had not yet had his lightning victories.’ The newspaper quoted his dramatic conclusion in full: ‘Citizens of Quebec, don’t be content to whine. Long live the flag of liberty. Enough of Band-Aids; bring on the revolution.’ "

Chronicle Herald

Rene Levesque went overseas in an American uniform. Trudeau not only did not go abroad (until after the war) he espoused anti-semitic views in his 20s. Despite all the carnage occurring in the world, carnage of which he was acutely aware, he took absurd positions ridiculing the earnestness of those around him.

Edited September 7, 2007 by August1991

[geoffrey]

August, I'd like to throw this in, more of in a devil's advocate manner than anything else. Isn't it convenient for Mulroney to make such a claim when he himself couldn't serve in WWII. How would we know if he'd go over? Do you think he would have?

[August1991]

August, I'd like to throw this in, more of in a devil's advocate manner than anything else. Isn't it convenient for Mulroney to make such a claim when he himself couldn't serve in WWII. How would we know if he'd go over? Do you think he would have?

That's a question anyone born after 1930 can ask themselves. Wandering around a war cemetery or two in various parts of the world, I've asked the question myself.

Trudeau faced the practical question; not hypothetically. Not only did he avoid it, but he went out of his way to irritate those who chose otherwise. And he did this with the full knowledge of what was happening in the world. Trudeau was rich and had travelled in Europe shortly before the outbreak of war. John Kennedy too had spent time in Europe prior to the war. He volunteered for the Navy.

As to Mulroney, who knows but I liked his comment about John Turner. When Turner was dancing with princesses and debutantes in London, Mulroney was driving a truck on the Lower North Shore.

Mulroney (and Chretien) came from humble origins. Their fathers were plant foremen in the regions. Trudeau was a Brébeuf snob with a Scottish mother. Montreal is a complicated city and Trudeau was an elitiste Montréalais. He spoke correct French and colloquial English. His family name was Québécois.

----

Incidentally, you should understand Mulroney's comment about "fighting off the blackflies in Outremont". Many French-Canadian men hid in the bush rather than get conscripted. Trudeau didn't have to hide anywhere near a blackfly.

Edited September 7, 2007 by August1991

[jbg]

By blaming someone else for his fiasco shows how small a person Mulroney is. I will never forget how horrified I was to watch him singing Irish Eyes with the Reagans, like joins to like.

I think Mulroney accomplished a lot of good things as PM. The fact is that Canada was not yet ready to undertake the Reagan Revolution. That takes doing in small, incremental steps.

I think it was particularly ill grace for PET to criticize, in such a vitriolic manner, a sitting PM. He was out of politics, was not an offiicial critic and his involvement was a breach of protocol.

As far as "Irish Eyes" goes I see nothing wrong with a display of close alliance. To pretent that the US and Canada (and the UK) are not natural, even perpetual allies is to deny reality.

[jbg]

Like so much of what passes for political discussion in English Canada, Margrace shows that everything is decided by one's views of the US. Margrace is anti-American and since Mulroney got along with Americans, Mulroney is ipso facto a bad guy.

This is a rare (for me) defense of Margrace. Margrace is intelligent, and makes good observations, albeit from a perspective opposite mine.

As far as anti-Americanism goes, isn't that endemic to Canadians? Despite the natural and inevitable alliance I described one or two posts up, anti-American is Canada's raison d'etre, from the time of the exit of the Loyalists forward.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think it was particularly ill grace for PET to criticize, in such a vitriolic manner, a sitting PM. He was out of politics, was not an offiicial critic and his involvement was a breach of protocol.

Indeed.....a "disgraced" Richard Nixon got a few things right, including the personal characterization of PM Trudeau.

Edited September 7, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[jdobbin]

While it is bad manners to blame the electorate of Manitoba and Newfoundland, and even less so than to blame yourself on the poor job marketing the accord, it is fully acceptable to blame a dead man, who apparently held a lot of sway with Mainitoba and Newfoundland back then.

But what is outrageous is a politician who has the stink of corruption all over him to suggest that some one else didn't have the morals to lead Canada. Mulroney didn't have the morals to lead, and that's why the Progressive Conservative will never ever be in power again.

I worked at the Manitoba Legislature at the time of Meech. I don't know that it was Trudeau who had the greatest influence on how the vote went. People went back and forth on Meech. It was perhaps the most tense and fearful time I had ever seen. People were split on and both sides brought up good points about why to accept it or reject it.

Mulroney might have had more influence on Manitoba if he hadn't screwed Bristol on the CF-18 contract. People's first instinct was to not trust the man.

[August1991]

As far as anti-Americanism goes, isn't that endemic to Canadians? Despite the natural and inevitable alliance I described one or two posts up, anti-American is Canada's raison d'etre, from the time of the exit of the Loyalists forward.

IME, it's endemic to English-Canadians. In French-Canada, the attitude to America is different.

I worked at the Manitoba Legislature at the time of Meech. I don't know that it was Trudeau who had the greatest influence on how the vote went.

That's a fair point, Dobbin. And it deserves a thread here: Why did Meech fail?

I tend to agree with Mulroney that Trudeau killed Meech. When Trudeau called Mulroney a pleutre, that was it.

Edited September 7, 2007 by August1991

[jdobbin]

That's a fair point, Dobbin. And it deserves a thread here: Why did Meech fail?

I tend to agree with Mulroney that Trudeau killed Meech. When Trudeau called Mulroney a pleutre, that was it.

Why did Meech fail? It failed because the vote in the Manitoba Legislature had to be unanimous. Elijah Harper filibustered with feather in hand to protest how First Nations had been shut out of the process (after the collapse of the third national constitutional talk regarding Aboriginal peoples).

Trudeau was never mentioned. Nor did his arguments impact how or why Elijah Harper voted. The vote wasn't even really about Mulroney. It was about First Nations.

Edited September 7, 2007 by jdobbin

[August1991]

Why did Meech fail? It failed because the vote in the Manitoba Legislature had to be unanimous. Elijah Harper filibustered with feather in hand to protest how First Nations had been shut out of the process (after the collapse of the third national constitutional talk regarding Aboriginal peoples).

Trudeau was never mentioned. Nor did his arguments impact how or why Elijah Harper voted. The vote wasn't even really about Mulroney. It was about First Nations.

That's both simplistic, and ignorant of the facts.

Clyde Wells put the sword into Meech but Trudeau gave it to him. Manitoba was a sideshow.

But as I say, I think we should start another thread.

[jbg]

Indeed.....a "disgraced" Richard Nixon got a few things right, including the personal characterization of PM Trudeau.

I'm sure that Trudeau was called worse things (than Nixon called him) by better people (than Nixon).

Nixon did damage to our country that even now isn't totally repaired.

[jbg]

I tend to agree with Mulroney that Trudeau killed Meech. When Trudeau called Mulroney a pleutre, that was it.

What is a a pleutre?