Police provoking violence?

[kuzadd]

'geoffrey'

You sound like you should be at a Leninist rally.

actually if this is a reference to state control of the populace, you should be all for that, cause that is what you are supporting.

Armed goons, bashing the populace who are exercising there democratic rights.

The police were protecting law abiding people at the conference from a band of trashy professional agitators.

That was not the case in this incident at all. Nor has it been the case in other incidents.

I have to say, I find this type of attitude, frightful, state control of people exercising there rights.

Democracy and freedom ain't always pretty, but to willingly chose oppression by the state, is a far worse choice in my book.

The SPP discussions should be public! Citizens and citizen groups should be involved directly.

[White Doors]

The SPP discussions should be public! Citizens and citizen groups should be involved directly.

We elected Mr Harper, Like it or not he is discussing this.

The citizens have spoke already.

I don't want anti-globalization leninists speaking for me, thanks.

ps: Do you think everything is a conspiracy?

Edited August 29, 2007 by White Doors

[M.Dancer]

Undercover cops aren't the issue. Agents provocateurs are.

Please present the evidence indicating that there were "rioters" at that particular demo.

From an "ahem" Indy site....

Other reports claiming that the attack may have been provoked by rock throwing are likely to be inaccurate only because the frequency of rocks thrown did not increase at or near to the time of the attack. It was reported by several eye-witnesses however that canisters were fired directly at rock throwers, both during the attack and earlier at various times throughout day.

http://ottawa.indymedia.ca/en/2007/08/5248.shtml

Lets be clear, rock throwers are rioters and should be arrested and charged with assault and if convicted, imprisoned.

[M.Dancer]

Again, I must ask, since no one seems able to answer, why, if the cops were there as undercover observers, they were dressed like the stereotypical "violent" protester and toting rocks around instead of going in regualr civilian garb.

Camoflage. Cops also wear and look like bikers when they infilrate bike gangs.

[M.Dancer]

Undercover cops aren't the issue. Agents provocateurs are.

Blah blah blah......

Yet no actual proof they were provoking anyone. No one has come forward and said, he was told by one of the cops to throw a rock or go without washing.....

Why is that? other than the accustaions are empty.....

[M.Dancer]

So you believe apparently that these protests are not acceptable, so do the War lords of Afghanistan

Rules prevent me from calling you an idiot, but your posts are idiotic. Where have I said peaceful protests are not acceptable?

Please go away and haunt some other thread.

[Drea]

Funny you seem to have an obsession with Afghan War Lords, you know the ones who are similar to union bosses and native chiefs. But then, it's funny to listen to the same old socialist refrain when demanding more and more handouts when feeding at that taxpayer trough.

Native chiefs, perhaps...but equating Afghani war lords with unionists...?

That is like equating Bush with Ghandi.

They are opposites. I highly doubt if an Afghani war lord has the same "agenda" as the unionist.

You obviously don't know what a union is and what they do, nor do you know what a dictatorship under a warlord is.

They are not the same. Like Bush and Ghandi, they are opposites.

You see, the union works for the rights of individual human beings. Does the Taliban do this? LOL

You people are soo funny. *wonky funny, not ha ha funny*.

Afghan warlords = human rights?

So many of you believe that it would be better to put a lid on free speech than allow protests.... un-be-liev-a-ble.

[old_bold&cold]

I will say that I do have a special place in my mind and heart for the police especially the RCMP, and it is not a good thought. I have reasons for what I feel and they are vaild. I do not have any sympathy for them and I take delight everytime I see them killed or hurt in any way. Yes I have good reasons for it, that I will not discuss, but I will say that between the RCMP and federal government went way beyond my charter rights and destroyed what I built up in my life and then forced me bankrupt in trying to defend my rights. By the way do any of you know that the cost to defend your charter rights is over $500.000.00 just for the first level of the courts. So some day try to prove you have any rights under the charter, and see what it costs you. Any way I try not to dwell too much on this, to keep my own sanity.

What the police do and say in these protest actions will always be lies built on more lies. They have specific agendas, and none of them has any qualm about trashing your rights and freedoms. They will laugh at you as say straight out sue us if you feel cheated, and we will bankrupt you before you get to any level of court. Of course this will not be say where it can be recorded. So yes I do put my faith in some of what the protesters have to say, but most go well beyond where my true feelings lie, but at least they do go there. The police on the other hand do not and I can not ever trust them to go there period. Their main goal is more power and money. The idea of keeping the peace is laughable. Have any of you seen what happens when the police first arrive at any scenes that may go violent? The police come and threaten everyone around to go away and if you do not they will jail you first and figure it out later. Open disreguard for your rights, even at that point. Then they will force themselves to be judge jury and executioner, and pick and choose who and what the charges will be. They will hand cuff and arrest at their will before they even ask about what went on. Again breaking the Charter of Rights. Since they already threatened to arrest all those who were standing around if they did not leave, they now only have a few people there to ask what has gone on. The law abiding people have left. They will manhandle anyone they chose, and we see this everyday on TV as to how you see anyone who is being arrested has 4-6 officers all stepping on him while they are down crushing him really. Again Charter of Rights out the window.

Now do not get me wrong, when I was involved with the police, they did not dare do this to me as I am not a little person. They did handcuff me and tighten the cuffs to stop all circulation to my hands and kept me in cuffs for two hours, where even by their own manuals all hand cuffed people are to be transported immediately to the station and handcuffs removed. But that is again just a small thing. They will keep talking and trying to get you to talk even after you have said you want your lawyer, and as in my case long before the lawyer could arrive they released me on my own recogisance. That is just how they do things so they say. I will say at this point they just found out that the warrant they had for search and seizure was for another company name and while it had my adress, and my personal name, the company name was of a company that operates at the other end of town. Big no no. Now that is about as far as I will go with this as it would not be in my best interests to bring this further public. Not because of settlements, but rather due to threats made to me if I pushed more against them.

So yes the police are not my friends, or my protectors. I wish they get what they deserve, and yes when I read about one dieing, that suits me just fine. When they are caught like they were here in public view, where they can not just hush it up and threaten things, means a lot to me, as they are slowly getting shown what they are. So yes I want to see the public dig deeper and also know why they carried rocks etc. I can say from experience that they were up to no good. I am always for the public being told and all information brought forward in these things because as we say in Arar etc. they really try to cover up their own misdeeds then anything else. Our Police forces are corrupt but no to the small amount of money from the local guy, but from their seeking of more power to misuse and enough political power to sequester any of the public enquiries. So to me that is what all this is about, and yes it should be investigated to get to all the truth, with no blacked out stuff claimed to be too sensitive, as we all know that means covering their asses.

[margrace]

We elected Mr Harper, Like it or not he is discussing this.

The citizens have spoke already.

I don't want anti-globalization leninists speaking for me, thanks.

ps: Do you think everything is a conspiracy?

Mr. Chretien was involved in this as well, I though Mr. Harper was all for free speech, my mistake.

[margrace]

Rules prevent me from calling you an idiot, but your posts are idiotic. Where have I said peaceful protests are not acceptable?

Please go away and haunt some other thread.

Why hitting too close to home, it seems that some posters on here do not believe in free speech, and they don't want John Public to know what is going on behind closed doors.

[White Doors]

Mr. Chretien was involved in this as well, I though Mr. Harper was all for free speech, my mistake.

How was free speech oppressed?

[White Doors]

I do not have any sympathy for them and I take delight everytime I see them killed or hurt in any way

Nice. Yes, it takes IQ to see beyond your own issues.

Oh well, at least you are old.

[M.Dancer]

Why hitting too close to home, it seems that some posters on here do not believe in free speech, and they don't want John Public to know what is going on behind closed doors.

Where have I said peaceful protests are not acceptable?

Free speech is one thing but muttering incoherently devoid of facts and without the semblance of truth is another....

If you or John Public aren't awate of what was discussed, it's because you aren't capable.

[White Doors]

Why hitting too close to home, it seems that some posters on here do not believe in free speech, and they don't want John Public to know what is going on behind closed doors.

If free speech = the right to know everything... then you might as well spent your life in a gulag margrace.

[margrace]

Boy!!! really got you two rilled up, what are you hiding from us?

[M.Dancer]

Boy!!! really got you two rilled up, what are you hiding from us?

Nothing to hide from the likes of you, just trying to avoid your lies and idiotic conspiracy fears

[buffycat]

How was free speech oppressed?

It has been explained how free speech and the right to protest (part of freedom of expression) has been oppressed many times on this thread already - did you bother to read?

By instigating violence, the police deter future protests to either a. occur or b. by drastically reducing the number of people assembling. This is done by instilling 'fear' on many levels. As I have already stated, I know many 'professionals' who agree with the protests but do not go themselves - not because they don't want to take a day off work (a 'sick' day) but because they are concerned about the event turning violent, as well as being photographed an on record with the various police forces. Hence - they allowed themselves to have thier rights and voice silenced out of fear. That is by definition oppressive.

It also furthers the militarised police forces' aganda = more power, control and of course cash (for all those great new toys!).

Oh and btw White Doors do you ever add anything to a convo or simply insult others?

[old_bold&cold]

Nice. Yes, it takes IQ to see beyond your own issues.

Oh well, at least you are old.

When you have experience and wisdom then you can speak as to what my reasons are for feeling like I do. Beleiev me it took many years of painful memories and thoughts to get to the point that I would not take matters into my own hands. But when you have been thru something like thta and there was no doubt about its wrongness, and then get bullied trying to use the legal system to get what you feel are owed, only to bankrupt yourself doing so. Also I will say that even then I was threaten if I was to again pursue it.

So as far as IQ goes I would match mine to yours any day. But as far as age and experience goes only a young inexperienced person would ever try to use that. I will say though that yes I am old and I want to let you know that I will enjoy spending your tax dollars in my old age. I also will as I have lots more time, be sure to always take the stance against what I see is police wrong doing, while you go play squash or tennis, it will be old farts like me who have a watching and the expeience to know when the printed stories are not so cut and dry.

[M.Dancer]

It has been explained how free speech and the right to protest (part of freedom of expression) has been oppressed many times on this thread already - did you bother to read?

By instigating violence............

Amazingly through all this blatherskite not one iota of proof has been offered that they instigated violence or provoked any.....I do recall though reading that protesters are gullible, to which I humbly concede the point.

[margrace]

Nothing to hide from the likes of you, just trying to avoid your lies and idiotic conspiracy fears

Did you get your orders? Shut that poster up.

[M.Dancer]

When you have experience and wisdom then you can speak as to what my reasons are for feeling like I do

I do not have any sympathy for them and I take delight everytime I see them killed or hurt in any way.

I'm not sure why anyone would particularly care why you choose to write hateful and disgusting things, nor do I suppose most will care for the particular motivations of murderers, thieves or wife beaters unless they are studying abnormal psychology.

[M.Dancer]

Did you get your orders? Shut that poster up.

So you believe apparently that these protests are not acceptable, so do the War lords of Afghanistan

Still waiting for you to back up your lies.

[old_bold&cold]

Well just let me look at this from the other side then. I am a cop and I come to the scene where people have been reported throwing rocks and I find two masked men standing there with rocks in their hands and looking very suspicious. Do I arrest those two men? If I charged them with this crime and they were to appear in court, would they be found not guilty? The only thing they have going for them is that they wear police officers. But is it not so that the police officer should have no extra considerations in the law? In fact they are to be held to an even greater expectations are they not?

So I would say that this needs to be 100% investigated and the bpublic should be made aware of everything that investigation has found. It is really that simple. if they were no underlying agendas then it should not be a problem for that to happen. We do have the right to question the police, even if they think otherwise.

[Black Dog]

From an "ahem" Indy site....

http://ottawa.indymedia.ca/en/2007/08/5248.shtml

Lets be clear, rock throwers are rioters and should be arrested and charged with assault and if convicted, imprisoned.

The claim was there were rocks being thrown at the particular protest where the cops were outed. I've seen no evidence of that. Nor have I denied that rocks were thrown, but the allegation was amde that there were rocks being thrown at the protest where the three amigos were outed is unsupported.

Camoflage. Cops also wear and look like bikers when they infilrate bike gangs.

Horseshit. Most protesters look like regular college kids, scruffy hippies and middle aged folks. That the cops would "camoflage" themeslves as Black Bloc members is telling.

Yet no actual proof they were provoking anyone. No one has come forward and said, he was told by one of the cops to throw a rock or go without washing.....

Er, except the multiple statements from eyewitnesses (including one I quoted above) indicating the cops were, in fact, provoking people, the fact that one of the cops was carrying a rock and refused to put it down when asked, yeah, there's no evidence.

There's enough circumstansial evidence to indicate the cops were acting as agents provocateur. There needs to be a public inquiry to see whether or not that is the case and to fully probe police tactics when dealing with these groups.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Black Dog

[M.Dancer]

The claim was there were rocks being thrown at the particular protest where the cops were outed. I've seen no evidence of that. Nor have I denied that rocks were thrown, but the allegation was amde that there were rocks being thrown at the protest where the three amigos were outed is unsupported.

Is that sucking and blowing at the same time? Or are you merely parsing? Are you trying to differentiate between Montebello where the wrtr rock throwers and Montebello, a few hours/minutes/metres where there were no rock throwing?

If that's the case, that pretty specious.