About products from China....

[betsy]

These hazardous products coming from China are quite a concern. China's disregards for human rights only reflects how it regards people. If they have no concern whatsoever for their own people, what more about others from different countries and cultures.

Furthermore, a lot of these products seem to easily find their way to our shelves, through our own businesses and companies.

The latest one is Mattel, which recalled millions of its toys due to hazardous substance(s). Over the years, how many toys had passed undetected? From other companies?

It's easy to say that there are manufacturers here who also sometimes fail the safety and health standards of our society...however, we seem to be hearing about products from China more often than other countries. And it still goes on being the most mentioned country whenever we have a product-recall or a warning!

So it suggests that there's really nothing serious being done (by China) to rectify the problem.

Products from China are sold in practically all stores.

I remember hearing from CTV, President Choice Albacore and white tuna were found to have mega-doses of lead....but I'm not sure if they came from China.

Products from China range from toys to canned goods to fresh produce. I am dubious about those Fuji apples or those pears...thinking what had been done to have those fruits looking so fresh....and had they been handled and prepared properly?

How can we consumers have guarantee that everything sold to us had been credibly and properly tested and approved?

What can we do to protect ourselves?

Edited August 17, 2007 by betsy

[Bonam]

How can we consumers have guarantee that everything sold to us had been credibly and properly tested and approved? What can we do to protect ourselves?

The only way to guarantee that anything has been done credibly and properly is to do it yourself, or to have it done before your eyes. Just take a sample from ever item you buy and do a chemical analysis.

[cybercoma]

And it still goes on being the most mentioned country whenever we have a product-recall or a warning!

Manufacturers all over the world have product-recalls and warnings all the time. American manufacturers do so as well, just look at the Big 3 (Firestone is another good example in the auto-industry) and one that I can think of off the top of my head is Schneider Electric (they make Square D and Federal Pioneer products). Those are not chinese manufactured and they've had serious recalls.

This one is garnering so much attention because it is products that our children play with, so it hits an emotional chord with consumers. Beside the media being sensationalist about this specific incident (your house could've burned down and everyone inside it killed in the Schneider case and safety issues with vehicles could also kill your entire family), China's manufacturing industry is so huge that it stands to reason we'd hear about problems from there more than any other country.

This should never have happened in the first place; however, I don't think it's a problem with China itself. The manufaturers and corporation who are contracting out the services of these chinese suppliers, should be the ones demanding that their products are safe. They should be conducting quality control testing, which I imagine they do anyway. I don't think it's even possible to test for all possible safety issues on every single product. They obviously check for the major concerns like choking hazards, durability of the parts (so the product doesn't come apart and become a choking hazard) and sharp edges that could cut a child. The fact that the manufacturer was using lead paint probably wasn't even conceivable to the company, since we've stopped using lead-based paints years ago.

It was a terrible oversight, nothing more yet nothing less. The problem should be fixed going forward and now that there is awareness among companies, it shouldn't happen again (once they start finding the other manufacturers using lead paint and get them to quit too).

Edited August 17, 2007 by cybercoma

[Fortunata]

How can we consumers have guarantee that everything sold to us had been credibly and properly tested and approved?

What can we do to protect ourselves?

There are no guarantees in life whether they be products from China, Fuji or here in North America. Manufacturers (and suppliers) first think of the bottom line and most often the consumer's safety is last on the list. Big business fights for their product rightly or wrongly before thinking safety (tires, tobacco companies, pharmaceutical companies). LG sold a refrigerator that had a defect causing fires; people's homes burned down and the potential for injury or death was very real but caused no hysteria. It's consumer beware for any and all products; governments may step in due to consumer pressure or other political reasons. Our government's track record for safe products is dismal and, is seemingly, most always in hind-sight if there is a furor.

[cybercoma]

Companies only think of the bottom line, so they don't care about safety?

That's just plain wrong. Companies only think of the bottom line, so it's imperative that they think of consumer safety. Firestone nearly went bankrupt because of the problems they were having with their tires. If a product is unsafe, people aren't going to buy it and the company will fail. So it stands to reason, that any corporation that wants to stay in business would make sure their products are safe.

[betsy]

Bonam, Cybercoma and Fortunata,

I understand that it is "buyers beware" policy a lot of times.

But why should we just settle for that? As consumers, we have the power to make demands that these countries...and all these companies/businesses that bring these products directly to us...should meet our high standards.

Manufacturers from all over the world should be vying for our dollars.

If money is the bottom line - then we certainly have the power!

I think consumer groups should be very vocal - and really loud about this! This latest thing with Mattel had gotten some consumers really worried and upset. And consumers should take advantage of this latest episode (especially with a major popular brand name) and not go back to being complacent.

The Health and Safety board or whatever governmental board oversees the products that consumers buy should revise their system.

So many products are going under their noses that obviously there's a major flaw in their system. While I understand that it is impossible to make it perfect - but China was and is regularly mentioned in these type of hazardous products over the years.

You'd think they'd really clamp on China and keep a very tight watch over their products.

We can wield our power as a consumer by avoiding products from China. Send a clear message that's not only heard but soundly felt. If there's no demand, there goes the supply.

Edited August 18, 2007 by betsy

[cybercoma]

But why should we just settle for that? As consumers, we have the power to make demands that these countries...and all these companies/businesses that bring these products directly to us...should meet our high standards.

You've completely missed what everyone has posted in this thread. You continue to use language that would suggest it's only products coming from other countries that have safety issues and recalls. This is not the case at all, so it would be nice if you would stop suggesting that it is.

Furthermore, there never was an issue until someone figured out that the paint was lead based. Even if you did have a consumer group (which we do, they're called Underwriters Laboratory (UL) and Canadian Standards Association (CSA)), they would need to be able to recognize the potential hazard before they can test for it. The idea that manufacturers of Mattel toys would be using lead based paint was likely inconceivable. We haven't used them in North America for decades and it would never be used in toys because of the potential health risks. Now that they know there are lead-based paints being used in manufacturing in China, it should be something else that they test.

The other thing I should mention is that lead-based paint is not a risk until it flakes off and children consume it. Putting a dried and cured toy into their mouth is not going to give them lead poisoning. Lead is not radioactive, it's only hazardous if it gets into your system. The only way dried and cured lead paint can get into your system is by eating paint chips or inhaling dried paint dust. They shouldn't be using it because there is a potential for risk there, but the risk is not a certainty. In fact, there are still trace amounts of lead in the tints still in use today.

I just think you're blowing this whole thing way out of proportion.

[Shakeyhands]

Don't blame the Chinese, they are only following the capitalist model. Blame the people in the top whatever percent who are benefiting from the low wages in China. What US based companies hasn't outsourced to earn an extra sheckel?

[Fortunata]

Companies only think of the bottom line, so they don't care about safety?

That's just plain wrong. Companies only think of the bottom line, so it's imperative that they think of consumer safety. Firestone nearly went bankrupt because of the problems they were having with their tires. If a product is unsafe, people aren't going to buy it and the company will fail. So it stands to reason, that any corporation that wants to stay in business would make sure their products are safe.

You`re right, but only when they are forced to think of consumer safety because of consumer demand. Or regulated safety standards by government because of consumer advocate groups. Very little is done voluntarily because it`s the right thing to do if it affects profitability. That`s not to say it`s ALL manufacturers (I shouldn`t have blanketed the whole industry) but if you look back at history, it`s most of them.

How many times have companies known about the problem and not taken the product off the market until forced to do so, just like Firestone.

[Riverwind]

Don't blame the Chinese, they are only following the capitalist model. Blame the people in the top whatever percent who are benefiting from the low wages in China. What US based companies hasn't outsourced to earn an extra sheckel?

I am getting sick of this narrative. It is the consumer that is ultimately to blame because they demanded the cheapest price and did not care where or how it was produced. Companies that tried to avoid outsourcing to China were quickly forced out of business by the consumer so it is not reasonable to claim that this problem was simply a matter of profit. For many companies outsourcing was the only way they could stay in business.

It is time for consumers to recognize that they can never trust a product that comes from a country where 'saving face' is more important than 'saving lives' (remember the SARS debacle). Things will never change until the consumer stops pointing the finger at 'greedy' companies and starts changing their purchasing habits.

[cybercoma]

Don't blame the Chinese, they are only following the capitalist model. Blame the people in the top whatever percent who are benefiting from the low wages in China. What US based companies hasn't outsourced to earn an extra sheckel?

The people at the top being the customers? Of course, that's not what you meant, but that's the reality of the situation.

[cybercoma]

I am getting sick of this narrative. It is the consumer that is ultimately to blame because they demanded the cheapest price and did not care where or how it was produced. Companies that tried to avoid outsourcing to China were quickly forced out of business by the consumer so it is not reasonable to claim that this problem was simply a matter of profit. For many companies outsourcing was the only way they could stay in business.

It is time for consumers to recognize that they can never trust a product that comes from a country where 'saving face' is more important than 'saving lives' (remember the SARS debacle). Things will never change until the consumer stops pointing the finger at 'greedy' companies and starts changing their purchasing habits.

Crap, I should've read your post first. Sorry for saying the same thing in a much less eloquent manner.

[bush_cheney2004]

Don't blame the Chinese, they are only following the capitalist model. Blame the people in the top whatever percent who are benefiting from the low wages in China. What US based companies hasn't outsourced to earn an extra sheckel?

Hmmm....did Canadians whine about the same type of "outsourcing" when American based companies sent jobs to Canada, and continue to do so?

[betsy]

You've completely missed what everyone has posted in this thread. You continue to use language that would suggest it's only products coming from other countries that have safety issues and recalls. This is not the case at all, so it would be nice if you would stop suggesting that it is.

No, I'm not saying that only products coming from other countries have safety recalls. We have issues such as e.coli and salmonella, botulism etc.. It is not possible to have perfection at all times.

However, we still have a higher standard than most countries. A lot of third world countries have major issues/problems having a standard that's at least comparable to us or "passable." Corruptions in these places makes it hard....but that's their own problem to address.

My point is, why should we lower our own standards? Why shouldn't we use our power as consumers to demand that the products coming to our shelves have the safety quality we expect?

Furthermore, there never was an issue until someone figured out that the paint was lead based. Even if you did have a consumer group (which we do, they're called Underwriters Laboratory (UL) and Canadian Standards Association (CSA)), they would need to be able to recognize the potential hazard before they can test for it.

How many times have I heard China's name mentioned just this past year alone when it comes to something such as lead???

The idea that manufacturers of Mattel toys would be using lead based paint was likely inconceivable.

We haven't used them in North America for decades and it would never be used in toys because of the potential health risks. Now that they know there are lead-based paints being used in manufacturing in China, it should be something else that they test.

That's no excuse! Mattel should know! Mattel should make it its responsibility to know! Especially when China's been notorious for lead-based materials over the years!

When companies are dealing with other countries, it's their responsibility to know! I don't think the execs of these companies are dumb not to have any doubts as to the quality of their products being manufactured overseas!

There is such a thing as quality-control in most major big enterprises!

The other thing I should mention is that lead-based paint is not a risk until it flakes off and children consume it. Putting a dried and cured toy into their mouth is not going to give them lead poisoning. Lead is not radioactive, it's only hazardous if it gets into your system. The only way dried and cured lead paint can get into your system is by eating paint chips or inhaling dried paint dust. They shouldn't be using it because there is a potential for risk there, but the risk is not a certainty. In fact, there are still trace amounts of lead in the tints still in use today.

But that's it, isn't it? Mattel makes toys for children! It's so common for children to put toys in their mouth, to gnaw and chew off!

I had a baby we suspected was part-beaver for her determination to want to chew off baseboards!

Read your statements. You yourself say that it is hazardous if it gets into your system. That there is potential risk.

If lead hadn't been used in our own country for more than a decade, obviously the risk is certain enough to warrant that it be dis-continued. Why should we take a chance?

My question is: why should we lower our own standards just to accomodate these foreign countries?

If they want to play ball, they have to go by the rules just like all the players here in our own country. If they can't, that's too bad...they're benched.

Companies based here in our own county, creating jobs for our own citizens have to go through all the extra expenses of complying to meet our high standards.

Edited August 19, 2007 by betsy

[GostHacked]

Companies only think of the bottom line, so they don't care about safety?

That's just plain wrong. Companies only think of the bottom line, so it's imperative that they think of consumer safety. Firestone nearly went bankrupt because of the problems they were having with their tires. If a product is unsafe, people aren't going to buy it and the company will fail. So it stands to reason, that any corporation that wants to stay in business would make sure their products are safe.

The thing is, companies take shortcuts all the time. Firestone should have found the safety concern way before they were under the gun. They let it go as long as they could to maximize profit, THEN they did something about it.

Do it right the first time. Or don't do it at all.

[Drea]

Bunch of friends were discussing this last night

Mattel is an American company yes?

Mattel (a toy manufacturing company) subcontracts to Chinese producers yes?

If I hire one contractor to build my house and he subcontracts the plumbing to some shoddy outfit, who do I blame? My original contractor for being cheap and hiring the lousy subcontractor or the subcontractor?

Of course it is the fault of the original contractor and he is on the hook for the shoddy plumbing regardless of whether or not he did it himself, he hired the guy that messed it up. His fault.

IMO Mattel is at fault for hiring a lousy subcontractor.

[sharkman]

The thing is, this subcontractor (China) has been screwing up a lot of jobs. In the trades, when this happens, said subcontractor finds he gets fewer and fewer jobs since nobody wants to deal with his screw ups at any price.

Pet food which killed hundreds of pets and sickened thousands of others, a COUNTERFIT Colgate toothpaste which had dangerous bacteria in it, a cough medicine in South America that had an ingredient that is also in anti-freeze coolant and now lead in the paint of children's toys. These are just some of the disasters that have occured in the last year concerning Chinese products. Any contractor would drop this subcontractor like a hot potato.

I've fired China myself and will spend more to get products from countries with better reps.

Edited August 19, 2007 by sharkman

[Drea]

Where is Mattel's quality control?

Have they subcontracted that too?

Mattel is ultimately responsible. It uses the cheapest subcontractors available so they can sell their goods competitively. The company in China (not China itself, not the whole entire country) using lead paint is not off the hook but I ask, why did Mattel not know? Why were they not more active in making sure their products were being produced in a safe manner? Do they not randomly check the toys for lead paint etc?

[sharkman]

Do you suppose Mattel would give specs on specific toys to be built that would meet safety standards of both the U.S., and the country the products were heading for? I think that is the key question. Did the specs include ingredients and materials to be used in the paint as well, or at least materials to not be used? Since Mattel is a huge and successful corporation that has been making products for at least 50 years, I'l tend to think that they'd be specific about what to make the toys out of. I could be wrong, and like I said, this would be one of the key issues.

Also, I don't know if lead is banned in paint the globe over, but it's been banned in North America for decades. For a Chinese factory to use it, unless under direct orders by the contractor ( Mattel) is criminal. I just can't see Mattel directing them to do this.

Edit: This isn't happening in a vacuum, it has occured in a larger context of shoddy or dangerous products made in China. It is not a pretty picture.

Edited August 19, 2007 by sharkman

[jbg]

I say boycottt the Chinese Olympics. as well. Slave labor is slave labor is slave labor. The factory masters are rather brutal about it as well. There's no reason that China should get a free pass.

While we're at it, how about a few UN resolutions aimed at Tibet's subjugation? How about expanding UNWRA to Tibet, and maybe funding a full-blown insurgency against a slavemongering dictatorship? How about strappng bombs onto some "angry" Tibetans to attack a random crowd in Peking's (not Beijing's) Tianamen Square?

Time for some moral consistency.

[Shakeyhands]

I am getting sick of this narrative. It is the consumer that is ultimately to blame because they demanded the cheapest price and did not care where or how it was produced. Companies that tried to avoid outsourcing to China were quickly forced out of business by the consumer so it is not reasonable to claim that this problem was simply a matter of profit. For many companies outsourcing was the only way they could stay in business.

It is time for consumers to recognize that they can never trust a product that comes from a country where 'saving face' is more important than 'saving lives' (remember the SARS debacle). Things will never change until the consumer stops pointing the finger at 'greedy' companies and starts changing their purchasing habits.

Its all very cyclical RW, as more jobs are lost to outsourcing the more people will need to rely on places like Walmart. But you are right, it goes both ways.

[Riverwind]

Meanwhile - in other news - Chinese bureaucrats have prohibited Buddhist monks from re-incarnating without permission.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227400/site/newsweek/

China wants to become a superpower but it just can't seem to get out of its own way....

Edited August 20, 2007 by Riverwind

[sharkman]

Blame the consumer, blame the corporation, or blame China for this one: children's clothing Made In China that has high levels of FORMALDEHYDE!!! Try 900 hundred times aboe levels considered safe. Oh, and the clothes have caught fire, burning 2 recently.

Add this to the list: Poisoned pet food killing hundreds/sickening thousands, toothpaste with high levels of bacteria, cough medicine with an anti-freeze ingredient, millions of toys with lead paint and now this. All in less than a year. Sooner or later, North America has to deal with its cheap tooth.

Edited August 22, 2007 by sharkman

[Bonam]

While we're at it, how about a few UN resolutions aimed at Tibet's subjugation?

China has a veto on the security council.

[jbg]

China has a veto on the security council.

Apparently the US took far more scathing criticism for Abu Ghraib, a harmless prank against butchers, than China ever did for Tibet.