Canada upgrading Frigates

[Wilber]

Yes. And Sweden has to sell to some very unsavoury regimes and was involved with selling weapons on both sides in the Iran vs Iraq war in order to keep her native arms industry afloat.

Canada's arms industry died with the Arrow. It is US defense policy to have all allies dependent upon US arms.

The point is a country with a small military can't afford to be in the arms business unless it sells it's products to other countries. Sweden is a neutral and as such has no allies. In order for it to have some sort of security it has to keep itself strong enough that others will think twice before messing with them. They don't have a country like the US next door with a vested interested interest in keeping them safe and independent.

Remember when Litton in Toronto was bombed by those nut cases who objected to them building guidance systems for US cruise missiles? This company was also building inertial nav systems for many of the worlds airlines at the time. The Americans didn't do that, they were our customers. Canadians did it.

[AngusThermopyle]

We do have an arms industry as Army Guy has pointed out. It's been severely curtailed though. We missed a major opportunity with the Bras D'or though. She was beautifull and the first of her type anywhere. She still holds the record for the fastest ship of war. If we had produced the class we could have sold a bushell load of them. In fact they would be perfect for our current needs even today. If you combined a 400 class (Bras D'or) with a Frigate and Destroyer You would have an extremely potent, rapid force to rekon with.

From what I hear our Coyotes are a big hit too. They are so named because they are intended to operate in packs of three. One C&C vehicle and two scouts. From what I understand they are in big demand.

Canada used to have a strong aerospace industry. Successive governments have managed to strip that away though. It's a shame.

[jbg]

The point is a country with a small military can't afford to be in the arms business unless it sells it's products to other countries.

As in why the AVRO sank?

[xul]

I was shocked when I heard a talking head on theTV say our frigates are getting long in the tooth....seems like only yesterday they were commisioned and the talk was they were the most advanced ships of the class and size in the world.....

It seems not a political decision. Politicians only used it to serve their political benefits.

Considering these ships have been launched for at least 10 years, some parts of their computers and equipments are aging, just as our car or computer would aging after being used for 10 years. The reliability is lower than a certain acceptable level, so some renewl and maintains are needed. But the contractor can not purchase the same model of these facilitis as their original status after 10 years when these ships had been launched, so they have to renew all of them with those new models.

If the radar was upgraded to APAR, it would suit to the computer upgrading better and improve the ability of these frigates essentially. But it is usually needed 8000 to 10,000 tonnage for a ship to fix an APAR.

[Mad_Michael]

Canada's arms industry died with the Arrow. It is US defense policy to have all allies dependent upon US arms.

Although true our defense industry did suffer a blow with the arrow, it's still there as much as tolerated by Canadians, i think the frigs are good example, along with Canada's version of the M-16 manufactured by diemaco Canada, or the ADDATS system by oerlikon canada.

US products manufactured in Canada under US license.

Except Oerlikon - they are British or Swedish. Same thing though. Their license.

As for all of it's allies operating US arms not true, even in Canada we operate a mish mash of equipment from across the globe...

Small arms and equipment don't matter much to the US military-industrial complex. They want to control the big-ticket items.

The products are available right now, or in the very near future, and i'm sure the US would be more than happy to build us a few ships if it meant we would be actually be using them to assist in our own defense.

This is absurd.

1. Canada will not buy a fully built ship 'off the shelf' from the USA - that's not how naval procurement works.

2. US officially opposes application of Canadian forces to Canadian goals. See Arctic sovereignty issues.

[ScottSA]

1. Canada will not buy a fully built ship 'off the shelf' from the USA - that's not how naval procurement works.

Really? *snicker* Do tell.

[Wilber]

Small arms and equipment don't matter much to the US military-industrial complex. They want to control the big-ticket items.

They always will as long as they are the biggest customer. Manufacturers will build what they want, not what someone who is only going to buy a few wants. The US will always buy American first unless there is a very good reason not to and they have the resources to make it happen like no one else. Why not take advantage of the fact the US government has foot the bill for developing these machines instead of bitching about it. We just have to belly up and buy the one that works when we want it instead of having to pay for all the failures as well.

The US Navy did buy a slew of BAC Hawk trainers from the Brits and has long been a buyer of Martin Baker ejection seats.

1. Canada will not buy a fully built ship 'off the shelf' from the USA - that's not how naval procurement works.

That is a Canadian political decision. Nothing to do with the US.

2. US officially opposes application of Canadian forces to Canadian goals. See Arctic sovereignty issues.

No, they oppose the application of Canadian forces to oppose their goals.

[bush_cheney2004]

Historical point of order: The Royal Canadian Navy had no problem accepting 7 US made destroyers during WW2 in exchange for bases from the UK.

[Wilber]

Historical point of order: The Royal Canadian Navy had no problem accepting 7 US made destroyers during WW2 in exchange for bases from the UK.

Hey, the the Brits gave up the bases not Canada. They were obsolete old WW1 junk. The Brits were so desperate holding off the Nazis all buy themselves they would take anything they could get. We were fighting on their side at the time, you weren't. That piece of blackmail is not something the US should be proud. The only one of those destroyers to make a name for itself is the one the Brits filled full of explosives, rammed into the dry dock at St. Nazaire and blew it up so the Germans couldn't use it for their heavy ships. One of the great commando raids of WW2.

[bush_cheney2004]

Hey, the the Brits gave up the bases not Canada. They were obsolete old WW1 junk. The Brits were so desperate holding off the Nazis all buy themselves they would take anything they could get. We were fighting on their side at the time, you weren't. That piece of blackmail is not something the US should be proud. The only one of those destroyers to make a name for itself is the one the Brits filled full of explosives, rammed into the dry dock at St. Nazaire and blew it up so the Germans couldn't use it for their heavy ships. One of the great commando raids of WW2.

Nevertheless, the record shows that the RCN accepted the "old WW1 junk".

The US accepted the "generous action… to enhance the national security of the United States" and immediately transferred fifty United States Navy destroyers "generally referred to as the twelve hundred-ton type" (also known in references as "flush-deck" destroyers, or "four-pipers" after their four funnels) Forty-three went to the Royal Navy and seven to the Royal Canadian Navy. Ships were transferred on from the Royal Navy to the Royal Netherlands Navy, the Royal Norwegian Navy and the Soviet Navy.

In the Commonwealth navies the ships were named after towns, and were therefore known as the Town class, although they had originally belonged to three ship classes (the Caldwell, Clemson, and Wickes classes).

The WW1 "junk" USS Reuben James (DD-245) was good enough for German torpedos.

[xul]

Most governmental purchase in the world are inclined to native manufacturer. Sometimes it is based on the economical fact.

Let's assume a government wants to buy 10 frigates. A foreign manufacturer offered $10 billion and native manufacturer offered 12 billion, so it seems reasonable to buy these foreign frigates.

But if we consider the factor of tax that the government would gain, the conclusion will be different.

Let's assume the tax that the government gained from manufacturer is 20%. If the government purchase the native made ships, its spending is 12billion, but it can also gain 2 billion tax form the native manufacturer. Of course the manufacturer needs to pay salary to its employees, to purchase material from other native manufacturers. And the government will also gain tax from them. And then the actual cost spent by the government must be lower than $10 billion.

If the government purchases these frigates from a foreign manufacturer, the foreignment will gain all taxes. To the government, the actual cost of purchasing these foreign frigates is 10 billion, higher than the cost of native made frigates.

[Wilber]

Nevertheless, the record shows that the RCN accepted the "old WW1 junk".

Of course they did, they needed every ship they could get regardless of age. They had no choice no matter what the price.

[bush_cheney2004]

Of course they did, they needed every ship they could get regardless of age. They had no choice no matter what the price.

The "price" wasn't Canada's to pay if my history and geography are correct, as the sun never set on The British Empire.

Back to the future....I don't know how much the Halifax mods will be dependent on American kit, but the price should be far less. In a former life, I used to manufacture lightweight torpedoes (e.g. Mk46)...some went to Canada. Canada's Nanoose Range is a favorite spot for weapons and sensor system development. On balance, Canada benefits from interoperability with US/NATO systems.

[Army Guy]

US products manufactured in Canada under US license.

Except Oerlikon - they are British or Swedish. Same thing though. Their license.

True, enough but they are still manufactured in Canada are they not , and part of our defense industry.

Small arms and equipment don't matter much to the US military-industrial complex. They want to control the big-ticket items.

You mean like tanks, Leo's purchased from germany, or helo's such as our new SAR ones purchased from europe, or LAV's designed by the swiss, or bv206 designed by the swedes, or our Frigs designed and built in Canada, Most of our SMP vehs are designed by the europeans.

I don't think they are concerned with control , as much as they inter operabilty with thier own equipment. Most of the US allies in europe, operate there own designed or built equipment, form ground equipment to aircraft, to ships...not much us designed or built items in thier inventory, such as britian, Germany, france, italy and list goes on.

This is absurd.

1. Canada will not buy a fully built ship 'off the shelf' from the USA - that's not how naval procurement works.

2. US officially opposes application of Canadian forces to Canadian goals. See Arctic sovereignty issues.

Someone should talk to the CDS then, he's been looking at Big honkin ships like US built San Antonio class amphib ships, or WASP class helo ass ships.

[Wilber]

The "price" wasn't Canada's to pay if my history and geography are correct, as the sun never set on The British Empire.

Quite so but then it didn't matter who they went to as long as it was someone who was fighting the war. Funny how domestic politcs can get countries involved in wars they shouldn't and keep them out of ones in which they really belong.

On balance, Canada benefits from interoperability with US/NATO systems.

A country Canada's size could never be as effective without it.

[mcqueen625]

This will be good for our Navy.

Now how about those new support ships?

I have no problem with the refitting of the frigates, but what I do have a problem with is the fact that Halifax Shipyards is going to get the contract to do the work. The design for all of the frigates were developed by the most modern ship yard in Canada, Saint John Shipbuilding, in Saint John, NB, and half were constructed at this facility and the other half were constructed in Quebec with supervision from Saint John Shipbuilding using those same plans. Saint John Shipbuilding became the most modern ship yard with taxpayer's dollars. The Irvings set about buying up basically all shipyards in Atlantic Canada, including Halifax Shipyards and then set in place a plan to close Saint John Shipbuilding putting hundrends of men out of work. After those ships were built they lobbied the federal government for funding to close and mothball Saint John Shipbuilding, and were subsequently given $55 Million to close this facility, and any work the Irving's obtained was switched to Halifax Shipyards. Some of those who worked for Saint John Shipbuilding were offered part-time jobs in Halifax, I say part-time because the Irvings would call them in to do a specific job and when that specific job was completed they were laid off to sit in a rooming house and wait for another call for part-time work.

Now we find out that the feds are again looking out for their rich friends by making sure the Irving's prosper, only now in Halifax instead of Saint John. I would have preferred to see that work go to the shipyard in Quebec that was involved in the building of these frigates. I hate to see workers being taken advantage of and then thrown aside because of one family's dislike for working in a union environment.

[White Doors]

and then set in place a plan to close Saint John Shipbuilding putting hundrends of men out of work. After those ships were built they lobbied the federal government for funding to close and mothball Saint John Shipbuilding, and were subsequently given $55 Million to close this facility,

You're skipping about 12 years of history here. Irving tried to make Saint John Shipbuilding work, but could not find any more buyers for new ships at the time. The closed and mothballed the navy yard there and moved it to Halifax. Hardly unique. Not sure why the government gave them money to close it down though, I'll give you that.

Halifax is the DND's major port. There will always be work for shipbuilding/maintenance there.

Makes sense to move it to Halifax.