Was the Japanese internment wrong?

[FascistLibertarian]

The Japanese were our ENEMY.

Japan was our enemy. There is a difference.

that the government has the responsibility to protect its people

agreed. But you have to show that locking up the Japanese was needed to protect the people, and you have failed to do this.

[betsy]

Betsy:

How can you be so sure that, had there been no internment at all, not a single Japanese-Canadian would’ve acted upon the words of the Japanese emperor?

I can't be so sure. However, I think that some sort of evidence to support the assumption that Japanese Canadians would follow the dictates of the Emporer of Japan would be proper before we incarcerate them and sieze thier property.

What kind of evidence would suffice for you? How do you propose that we - being in the middle of war in the Pacific and Europe - would have the resources to waste following each and every Japanese-Canadian - just waiting for that evidence to surface? Maybe in our own harbor at Halifax. Or Vancouver.

Oh Peter....

[betsy]

The Japanese were our ENEMY.

Japan was our enemy. There is a difference.

What do you mean? That the government declared war on us, and not each individual citizens?

It conjures up a scene of swarms of Japanese invaders knocking on doors serving us with war declaration papers.

"YOU'VE BEEN SERVED, BOY!"

that the government has the responsibility to protect its people

agreed. But you have to show that locking up the Japanese was needed to protect the people, and you have failed to do this.

No, I don't have to. I don't have to show anything. It's been done, 65 years ago. But the government had the responsibility and took it. That you don't agree with what they did is irrelevant - except for discussion purposes.

[buffycat]

Hey Betsy, since you support wholeheartedly the internment of people based on their genetic origin and or cultural affiliations, how do you feel about the Ukranian Internment of 1914 via the War Measures Act? I guess you would support that too huh? I will further guess that you would have been right behind Hitler's locking up of the communists in pre war Germany? I guess the locking up and systematic killing of Jews, Homosexuals, Roma, Communists etc. sits okay with you too? Afterall - internment is the first step isn't it?

You may want to acquaint yourself with this:

http://www.ucc.ca/media_releases/2005-08-24_4/index.htm

How about we round up all of those immigrants whose country we don't happen to get along with right now? Afghans, Palestinians, Iranians, Chinese, North Koreans etc? In your supreme view this is all well and good?

Face it - your position is indefensible, especially the one where you consider yourself so darn Supreme!

[Peter F]

Betsy:

How can you be so sure that, had there been no internment at all, not a single Japanese-Canadian would’ve acted upon the words of the Japanese emperor?

I can't be so sure. However, I think that some sort of evidence to support the assumption that Japanese Canadians would follow the dictates of the Emporer of Japan would be proper before we incarcerate them and sieze thier property.

What kind of evidence would suffice for you? How do you propose that we - being in the middle of war in the Pacific and Europe - would have the resources to waste following each and every Japanese-Canadian - just waiting for that evidence to surface? Maybe in our own harbor at Halifax. Or Vancouver.

Oh Peter....

but it was ok to waste resources on your mother-in-law because she was Canadian-not German. But it was a waste of resources to suspect a Japanese Canadians daughter?

Here's the goon (again) it was unfair and unjust to incarcerate those of German/Italian parentage. It was not unfair/unjust to incarcerate those of Japanese parentage.

Why the difference?

Considering Canada's naval committments and geography in 1942 I would suspect that there was far more danger from Canadians of German heritage on the East Coast than the danger from Japanese Canadians on the West coast. Yet only the Japanese Canadians were encamped.

What was the logic of that?

[betsy]

Hey Betsy, since you support wholeheartedly the internment of people based on their genetic origin and or cultural affiliations, how do you feel about the Ukranian Internment of 1914 via the War Measures Act? I guess you would support that too huh? I will further guess that you would have been right behind Hitler's locking up of the communists in pre war Germany? I guess the locking up and systematic killing of Jews, Homosexuals, Roma, Communists etc. sits okay with you too? Afterall - internment is the first step isn't it?

You may want to acquaint yourself with this:

http://www.ucc.ca/media_releases/2005-08-24_4/index.htm

How about we round up all of those immigrants whose country we don't happen to get along with right now? Afghans, Palestinians, Iranians, Chinese, North Koreans etc? In your supreme view this is all well and good?

Face it - your position is indefensible, especially the one where you consider yourself so darn Supreme!

BWA-HA-HA! Oh my Lord, my tummy aches.....

You really don't have a clue!

[margrace]

A lot of the Japanese locked up were of Canadian Birth, however that said, in your estimation the internment was good. So why was the Japanese properties, worth millions of dollars, not returned to them after the war. If this was such a straight forward operation and their does not seem to have been any real threat from them, then why was all their homes and lands seized forever. Your arguments do not compute.

If we had been fighting the Scotch and Irish I would have been interned by your rules.

[betsy]

Betsy:

How can you be so sure that, had there been no internment at all, not a single Japanese-Canadian would’ve acted upon the words of the Japanese emperor?

I can't be so sure. However, I think that some sort of evidence to support the assumption that Japanese Canadians would follow the dictates of the Emporer of Japan would be proper before we incarcerate them and sieze thier property.

What kind of evidence would suffice for you? How do you propose that we - being in the middle of war in the Pacific and Europe - would have the resources to waste following each and every Japanese-Canadian - just waiting for that evidence to surface? Maybe in our own harbor at Halifax. Or Vancouver.

Oh Peter....

but it was ok to waste resources on your mother-in-law because she was Canadian-not German. But it was a waste of resources to suspect a Japanese Canadians daughter?

Here's the goon (again) it was unfair and unjust to incarcerate those of German/Italian parentage. It was not unfair/unjust to incarcerate those of Japanese parentage.

Why the difference?

Considering Canada's naval committments and geography in 1942 I would suspect that there was far more danger from Canadians of German heritage on the East Coast than the danger from Japanese Canadians on the West coast. Yet only the Japanese Canadians were encamped.

What was the logic of that?

Peter, as I've said before, my mother in-law was a British citizen, not a Canadian. The internment of her father, who was a German citizen, happened in England, not in Canada.

Do you read these post? Or do you just pick up the bits that suit you?

As for the German threat on the East Coast, too bad you weren't there to warn the Canadian government. Perhaps they would've interned the Germans too.

Just what is your point here, Peter?

Are you against internment....or do you think it should've been expanded to include Germans, women and ugly children?

[betsy]

A lot of the Japanese locked up were of Canadian Birth, however that said, in your estimation the internment was good. So why was the Japanese properties, worth millions of dollars, not returned to them after the war. If this was such a straight forward operation and their does not seem to have been any real threat from them, then why was all their homes and lands seized forever. Your arguments do not compute.

You better read back all the arguments from the very beginning....for I've already stated my opinion on this matter.

If we had been fighting the Scotch and Irish I would have been interned by your rules.

Well do you mean the Scottish and Irish, or the Scotch and Irish Whiskey? I definitely would not want to get rid of either of the last two.

But damn right, you'd be! The United Empire doesn't get a bye.

Your country starts a war, you may be seen as a potential threat in your home country.

If your governor was Robbie Burns, your home country's government might well be justified in believing you consider him divine given the adoration Burns gets in Scotland.

You want to be ridiculous. So can I be. It's the percieved threat that the internment is meant to deter. Why is that hard to understand.

As I've said before, you don't have to agree with what they did, you just have to acknowledge that they had the responsibility to take action, if they felt it appropriate to protect its citizenry.

[FascistLibertarian]

Action that the Canadian military and RCMP said was not needed?

[M.Dancer]

This devine thing has gotten way out of hand. My origional point was before 1867 most Japanese did not give a rats ass who the emperor was or what he said.

Anyone who thinks the internment was not linked to racism needs to have their head examined.

Germans are white people, like the people in charge of the govt.

The Japanese are Asians.

Yeah and the God knows we never interned white people.....except for token white people...like Ukrainans, Italians, Germans, Hungarians, Bulgarians.........

[Peter F]

Peter, as I've said before, my mother in-law was a British citizen, not a Canadian. The internment of her father, who was a German citizen, happened in England, not in Canada.

Do you read these post? Or do you just pick up the bits that suit you?

my apologies. You are quite correct that internment procedures and policies in England during the war are not the issue here.

As for the German threat on the East Coast, too bad you weren't there to warn the Canadian government. Perhaps they would've interned the Germans too.

No need for me to be there. I'm sure somebody suggested that the government extend the internment to Germans and thier familys. Howerver the government (I assume) rejected such things out of hand as being unnecessary.

Just what is your point here, Peter?

Are you against internment....or do you think it should've been expanded to include Germans, women and ugly children?

Yes, that is the funny part. The Canadian governments internment of Canadians on the west coast in 1942 did include Japanese, Canadians, women and ugly children.

My question (again) is why only those of Japanese heritage?

[M.Dancer]

Ukrainians Interned

Italians Interned

[Black Dog]

What? That they are religious fanatics is the the reason they are our enemy?

NO! It's because they're shooting at us and threatening us and killing our soldiers! And soon our children!

THAT'S why they're our enemy. They just happen to be religious fanatics.

Did we defend against the Nazis because they were religious fanatics or because they were German? No, it was because they threatened us and killed our soldiers and our allies.

At least get a grip on reality if you can't get a grip on logic!!

WTF? One minute you're defending the internment of Japanese-Canadians/Americans, the next you're blathering about "the enemy". It's like arguing with a chihuahua. Stay focused

For the record, if someone is "shooting at us and threatening us and killing our soldiers" that would qualify them as enemys. But you're talking about interning an entire group, none of whom have committed those acts, based soley on the fact that they share racial/religious backgrounds with "the enemy."

No. It's measured in miles. And we're miles high.....well, I am anyway.

Well, that would explain a few things.

[betsy]

Yes, that is the funny part. The Canadian governments internment of Canadians on the west coast in 1942 did include Japanese, Canadians, women and ugly children.

My question (again) is why only those of Japanese heritage?

Okay...okay....maybe they should've coralled a few native Indians, the odd Hungarian, and a few Albertans to boot. After all, when two blacks rob a bank, we're expected to question whites and Chinese as well, so we are not being unfair.

So, from the point of view of 21st Century liberals in Canada, I guess you're right.

But from the point of view of mid-20th century relatively rational people in the midst of a serious and devastating war, things look a little different.

edited:

Well see there, Peter....check out MDancer's post. Ukrainians and Italians were interned.

The Japanese were interned in Canada because they were considered by the Canadian government a threat to our security. The reason they were considered a threat was that the Emperor had told all Japanese that they were responsible to Japan no matter where they were. That's why. Whether you agree with what they did or not is another issue. But that's why it was the Japanese that were rounded up.

[betsy]

What? That they are religious fanatics is the the reason they are our enemy?

NO! It's because they're shooting at us and threatening us and killing our soldiers! And soon our children!

THAT'S why they're our enemy. They just happen to be religious fanatics.

Did we defend against the Nazis because they were religious fanatics or because they were German? No, it was because they threatened us and killed our soldiers and our allies.

At least get a grip on reality if you can't get a grip on logic!!

WTF? One minute you're defending the internment of Japanese-Canadians/Americans, the next you're blathering about "the enemy". It's like arguing with a chihuahua. Stay focused

For the record, if someone is "shooting at us and threatening us and killing our soldiers" that would qualify them as enemys. But you're talking about interning an entire group, none of whom have committed those acts, based soley on the fact that they share racial/religious backgrounds with "the enemy."

Go back and read. I'm not going to repeat what I've already explained a couple of times.

[margrace]

No they were rounded up because the almighty white Canadians wanted their properties, plain and simple.

[Black Dog]

Go back and read. I'm not going to repeat what I've already explained a couple of times.

I don't why I'd do that. It's pretty clear. You retroactively support the internment of Canadian citizens based on their racial background and implicitly support similar measures be taken against Canadian citizens based on their religious background. Neither position is teneble, so I'm not sure why you're even bothering to argue. But then, I never am.

[betsy]

Go back and read. I'm not going to repeat what I've already explained a couple of times.

I don't why I'd do that. It's pretty clear. You retroactively support the internment of Canadian citizens based on their racial background and implicitly support similar measures be taken against Canadian citizens based on their religious background. Neither position is teneble, so I'm not sure why you're even bothering to argue. But then, I never am.

Yeah-yeah, Blackdog.

That's true. You never are sure.

[Black Dog]

Yeah-yeah, Blackdog.

That's true. You never are sure.

It's pretty clear my assessment of your argument is bang on:

The Japanese were interned in Canada because they were considered by the Canadian government a threat to our security. The reason they were considered a threat was that the Emperor had told all Japanese that they were responsible to Japan no matter where they were. That's why. Whether you agree with what they did or not is another issue. But that's why it was the Japanese that were rounded up.

You can't simply claim "oh the government considered them a threat" without analysing why they did so. I don't know how you can argue this and then claim that it wasn't based on racism. See, the government of day was operating on the assumption that they would remain loyal to Japan. This assumption was based soley on the fact that they were of Japanese descent. That many were in fact Canadian born, or long time Canadian residents was overriden by the simple fact of their race. There's no way around it.

[margrace]

Go back and read. I'm not going to repeat what I've already explained a couple of times.

I don't why I'd do that. It's pretty clear. You retroactively support the internment of Canadian citizens based on their racial background and implicitly support similar measures be taken against Canadian citizens based on their religious background. Neither position is teneble, so I'm not sure why you're even bothering to argue. But then, I never am.

Yeah-yeah, Blackdog.

That's true. You never are sure.

So are you also saying that if I had been a descendant of a person from a country that we were fighting against that it was all right to jail me and steel all my property, including almost everything I owned.

[betsy]

Yeah-yeah, Blackdog.

That's true. You never are sure.

It's pretty clear my assessment of your argument is bang on:

The Japanese were interned in Canada because they were considered by the Canadian government a threat to our security. The reason they were considered a threat was that the Emperor had told all Japanese that they were responsible to Japan no matter where they were. That's why. Whether you agree with what they did or not is another issue. But that's why it was the Japanese that were rounded up.

You can't simply claim "oh the government considered them a threat" without analysing why they did so. I don't know how you can argue this and then claim that it wasn't based on racism. See, the government of day was operating on the assumption that they would remain loyal to Japan. This assumption was based soley on the fact that they were of Japanese descent. That many were in fact Canadian born, or long time Canadian residents was overriden by the simple fact of their race. There's no way around it.

This is deja-vu all over again. Because more men are in power than women, you conclude that it is because of gender discrimination. Because the enemy are of Japanese decent, you conclude that our concern about their loyalty is racial discrimination. Twice wrong.

Do you imagine that there would be a population of Ukrainians or Lithuanians or Africans that would concern our government about their loyalty to Japan? Of course they're Japanese, what do you think they'd be?

It doesn't make it racist. It's just obvious. The internment wasn't based solely on the fact they were of Japanese descent. It was based on the concern that they would obey their god and emperor and perform treacherous acts from within our borders. Who else would you be concerned about? Frenchmen? Africans? Every reference to a race isn't racism - at least not in your modern sense of the word "racism".

We can't go over the whole thing again, Black Dog. You're determined to see what you want to see. So let's just leave it there.

But while I'm here, did I ever tell you the story of the circling dog...

[jbg]

In hindsight it was wrong but who here would not have the same concerns under the circumstances then? It was war, we get scared and do what we think is best at the time.

I don't know that much about it. My observation is that if the Japanese were anything like the current crop of Chinese I can see why it would happen. Let me explain.

Most, indeed all, Chinese I know are great citizens. They are industrious, civil, and non-violent.

However, they do keep to themselves, largely, don't participate in American civil life, and often speak only broken, if any, English. They speak to each other in Chinese. When war threatened the Pacific Coast, there were many of Japanese origins who, I believe, similarly did not integrate with mainstream culture, did not speak English and kept to themselves. Being a hypenated American is a real risk in wartime when your country is fighting the "hyphenated" part.

In wartime, the safety of the general public and of troops is always going to trump civil liberties. I cannot condone, but can only explain, what appears to have been a gross injustice.

[Drea]

In hindsight it was wrong but who here would not have the same concerns under the circumstances then? It was war, we get scared and do what we think is best at the time.

I don't know that much about it. My observation is that if the Japanese were anything like the current crop of Chinese I can see why it would happen. Let me explain.

Most, indeed all, Chinese I know are great citizens. They are industrious, civil, and non-violent.

However, they do keep to themselves, largely, don't participate in American civil life, and often speak only broken, if any, English. They speak to each other in Chinese. When war threatened the Pacific Coast, there were many of Japanese origins who, I believe, similarly did not integrate with mainstream culture, did not speak English and kept to themselves. Being a hypenated American is a real risk in wartime when your country is fighting the "hyphenated" part.

In wartime, the safety of the general public and of troops is always going to trump civil liberties. I cannot condone, but can only explain, what appears to have been a gross injustice.

Watched a program on the Chinese men who built the Canadian Pacific railway. Gross injustice doesn't even come close.

Many Japanese families (most of them acutally) had to start from scratch after the "internment". They never got their land or assets returned to them.

If I had a first language other than english, you darn right I'd use it at home to be sure my children never lose it's useage. My family lost it's french -- we spoke it when we were little and my grandparents were alive. There is nothing wrong with other languages jbg -- it may be valuable for you to learn one.

I want to learn Hindi so I can talk to the little old lady at the Indian restaurant I frequent. Why should this (she must be at least 100yo) old lady be forced to learn a new language at her age? Should her family just ship her back to India 'cause she can't speak english?

Indian and oriental women are by far the most beautiful on earth btw. The most beautiful men are blacks. Pasty, small-eyed, pimplyskinned white people don't even compare (except for maybe blue eyes) LOL

[margrace]

In hindsight it was wrong but who here would not have the same concerns under the circumstances then? It was war, we get scared and do what we think is best at the time.

I don't know that much about it. My observation is that if the Japanese were anything like the current crop of Chinese I can see why it would happen. Let me explain.

Most, indeed all, Chinese I know are great citizens. They are industrious, civil, and non-violent.

However, they do keep to themselves, largely, don't participate in American civil life, and often speak only broken, if any, English. They speak to each other in Chinese. When war threatened the Pacific Coast, there were many of Japanese origins who, I believe, similarly did not integrate with mainstream culture, did not speak English and kept to themselves. Being a hypenated American is a real risk in wartime when your country is fighting the "hyphenated" part.

In wartime, the safety of the general public and of troops is always going to trump civil liberties. I cannot condone, but can only explain, what appears to have been a gross injustice.

Watched a program on the Chinese men who built the Canadian Pacific railway. Gross injustice doesn't even come close.

Many Japanese families (most of them acutally) had to start from scratch after the "internment". They never got their land or assets returned to them.

If I had a first language other than english, you darn right I'd use it at home to be sure my children never lose it's useage. My family lost it's french -- we spoke it when we were little and my grandparents were alive. There is nothing wrong with other languages jbg -- it may be valuable for you to learn one.

I want to learn Hindi so I can talk to the little old lady at the Indian restaurant I frequent. Why should this (she must be at least 100yo) old lady be forced to learn a new language at her age? Should her family just ship her back to India 'cause she can't speak english?

Indian and oriental women are by far the most beautiful on earth btw. The most beautiful men are blacks. Pasty, small-eyed, pimplyskinned white people don't even compare (except for maybe blue eyes) LOL

Yes Drea, do you get the feeling sometimes that people are refusing to face the truth of this. The white man wanted the Japanese assets and business's. If that was not the reason then why was it not given back???