Was the Japanese internment wrong?

[JerrySeinfeld]

OK - I made the title intentionally inflammatory to get some interest...

But it's an interesting question.

I admittedly don't know a tonne about the internment. But I do know it was because we were at war with Japan, no?

I'm NOT saying it was or was not right. But there is a thought to the loyalties of persons who lives here but is from another country.

Where are your loyalties? Let's say you move to Saudi Arabia to work in the oil industry and we end up in a war with them. Would you be loyal to Canada or to Saudi Arabia?

This issue also raises the whole can of worms of multiculturlism - and about people like Roach (from another thread can't remember his first name) who immigrate here but refuse to take the oath of citizenship until it is changed to suit them.

If we live in a country that is so oversensitive that we not only consider it OK for immigrants to flout our oath of citizenship, but the courts actually hear their case and consider making a change...then perhaps internment isn't such a bad idea. After all - if a newcomer refuses our values, our symbols, our traditions, our "way of life", who is to say their loyalty lies with our country at all?

I am not advocating internment camps. What I am doing is putting forth some interesting thoughts about what it means to be Canadian.

Thoughts PLEASE

[Peter F]

After all - if a newcomer refuses our values, our symbols, our traditions, our "way of life", who is to say their loyalty lies with our country at all?

Who's to say your loyalty lies with our country? What is it about you that puts you above suspicion?

What is our "Way of life"? That is always left undefined by the "They should accept our way of life or go home" crowd. As long as that is undefined then immigrants will always be unnaccepting of our way of life.

The argument is bullshit, and conveniently so for the anit-immigration lobby.

As for Japanese internment, the state decided that no evidence of Loyalty to the adopted country was to be considered. The one and only reason for internment was that they were of Japanese descent. So acceptance and adoption of Canadian "Values" and our "Way of life" didn't mean squat. The interned were suspect because they were'nt really Canadians.

Ah, the good ol days, when trustworthy and true Canadians were easy to spot.

[M.Dancer]

I don't believe there was ever established that even one case of espionage, sabotage or any other ....age that was prevented by the internment. Although I doubt that even one case could justify the big net round up of honest hard working people.

On the otherhand there were numerous cases where property was siezed and livilihoods destroyed.

My Sister in laws parents were both interned, her mother was native born canadian. Both her parents went on to become professionals who made valuable contributions to the communities they lived in.

[buffycat]

In a word: YES.

Especially since many of those interned lost everything, and were more often than not Canadian citizens.

So, yes it was wrong.

[marcinmoka]

Was the Japanese internment wrong?

Yes. Yes it was.

I don't believe there was ever established that even one case of espionage, sabotage or any other ....age that was prevented by the internment. Although I doubt that even one case could justify the big net round up of honest hard working people.

On the otherhand there were numerous cases where property was siezed and livilihoods destroyed.

Ditto.

Not to mention it puts you at a massive disadvantage. If you are concerned with peoples "loyalty" because of their ethnicity or religion or what not, you can be distracted to the real threats, i.e. those who look like "friendlies" or "loyalists" on the surface but in reality, are far from it.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Was the Japanese internment wrong?

Yes. Yes it was.

I don't believe there was ever established that even one case of espionage, sabotage or any other ....age that was prevented by the internment. Although I doubt that even one case could justify the big net round up of honest hard working people.

On the otherhand there were numerous cases where property was siezed and livilihoods destroyed.

Ditto.

Not to mention it puts you at a massive disadvantage. If you are concerned with peoples "loyalty" because of their ethnicity or religion or what not, you can be distracted to the real threats, i.e. those who look like "friendlies" or "loyalists" on the surface but in reality, are far from it.

Hmmm. It's a pretty complicated thing to consider and not that simple.

Think about the Taliban threats of yesterday.

As I said in the original post, I'm not in favour of internment camps.

What I am saying is that today's world provides for a very complicated "war". And our multi-culti sensitivity is a huge weakness. We KNOW that the Taliban has threatened us. Yet we can't start profiling recent afghan immigrants or visitors. Well, we try to but there is constant outrage against "watchlists" etc. The Islamists know and understand this "tolerance" and softness when it comes to a long war. The Islamists know the war is not popular, and in a democracy that means it's our weakness.

It's just a scary though with no easy solution. Think about it.

[margrace]

After all - if a newcomer refuses our values, our symbols, our traditions, our "way of life", who is to say their loyalty lies with our country at all?

Who's to say your loyalty lies with our country? What is it about you that puts you above suspicion?

What is our "Way of life"? That is always left undefined by the "They should accept our way of life or go home" crowd. As long as that is undefined then immigrants will always be unnaccepting of our way of life.

The argument is bullshit, and conveniently so for the anit-immigration lobby.

As for Japanese internment, the state decided that no evidence of Loyalty to the adopted country was to be considered. The one and only reason for internment was that they were of Japanese descent. So acceptance and adoption of Canadian "Values" and our "Way of life" didn't mean squat. The interned were suspect because they were'nt really Canadians.

Ah, the good ol days, when trustworthy and true Canadians were easy to spot.

And there were Canadians who wanted their land and business, you notice they got vertually nothing back. Our Japanese neighbours in Ontario were great. They were market gardners and had great children. When they were moved from BC they were interned in tents in Alberta in the winter. Nice people we are aye.

[Guest chilipeppers]

In hindsight it was wrong but who here would not have the same concerns under the circumstances then? It was war, we get scared and do what we think is best at the time.

[Bonam]

When you have an all out war like that, you do everything you have to and everything you can think of. In the current limited wars, internment like that would of course be unjustifiable, but at the time of the 2nd world war, there was the very real possibility that one leaked secret or betrayal could have led to a chain of events causing hugely increased casualties or even defeat of Allied forces. When so much is at stake, you do anything you have to to survive and to win.

Of course it can be argued that the method of internment should have been more fair and things should have been returned more equitably after the War, but the principle of detaining (or at least thoroughly investigating and selectively detaining) persons originating from a country that you are in an all out war with can't be completely ruled out.

[Mad_Michael]

Categorically, yes.

To lock up a whole class of law-abiding Canadian citizens just because the country from which they immigrated from (in some cases, many generations previously) has become an enemy of Canada is a travesty of justice and an insult against everything to which Canada stands for.

[betsy]

Was the internment wrong? I don't think so. Because it was also for their own protection.

What was wrong was the way the interned were treated. They shouldn't have been treated as enemies.

[Mad_Michael]

Was the internment wrong? I don't think so. Because it was also for their own protection.

You mean it was more efficient and easier to lock them up to prevent Canadian redneck idiots from trying to cause them harm?

I respectfully submit that it is much better to use our police powers to arrest and prosecute such animals rather than lock up all potential victims - for their own safety.

Indeed, should we not lock up all women in Canada - 'for their own protection' - from potential rapists? That is absurd.

[Black Dog]

Was the internment wrong? I don't think so. Because it was also for their own protection.

What was wrong was the way the interned were treated. They shouldn't have been treated as enemies.

They were treated like enemies for thier own protection? How does that work?

Contradictions aside, they weren't interned for their own protection. That statement is categorically false.

[Peter F]

Was the internment wrong? I don't think so. Because it was also for their own protection.

What was wrong was the way the interned were treated. They shouldn't have been treated as enemies.

If there's nothing wrong with internment then why were we not all interned? The percieved threat was from the Japanese. Those Canadians of Japanese descent were considered untrustworthy - without a shred of evidence to support it. It was bigotry pure and simple. The very same bigotry that refused to compensate them for their losses caused by the internment. They were'nt Canadians they were Japanese no matter what thier citizenship papers said. Therefore they were the enemy and war is hell.

This is pertinent because the very same logic is being used against Canadian citizens today. They're Muslims from Lebanon therefore they can't be trusted....despite thier Canadian citizenship.

Its nothing but bigotry.

[marcinmoka]

This is pertinent because the very same logic is being used against Canadian citizens today. They're Muslims from Lebanon therefore they can't be trusted....despite thier Canadian citizenship.

I see where you are going, but

a. Lebanon is not considered too much a threat, at least not relatively.

b. The big ruckus was raised over dual citizens residing in Lebanon who kept a Canadian Passport in case the level of instability in Lebanon sky rocketed and they needed a "backup". I don't think anyone (except a few "special" characters from this site perhaps) put into question the loyalty of the typical Lebanese family who has been living here for the past 20 years and considers themselves Canadian, and for whom Lebanon is now at most considered a "tourist" destination.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Was the internment wrong? I don't think so. Because it was also for their own protection.

What was wrong was the way the interned were treated. They shouldn't have been treated as enemies.

If there's nothing wrong with internment then why were we not all interned? The percieved threat was from the Japanese. Those Canadians of Japanese descent were considered untrustworthy - without a shred of evidence to support it. It was bigotry pure and simple. The very same bigotry that refused to compensate them for their losses caused by the internment. They were'nt Canadians they were Japanese no matter what thier citizenship papers said. Therefore they were the enemy and war is hell.

This is pertinent because the very same logic is being used against Canadian citizens today. They're Muslims from Lebanon therefore they can't be trusted....despite thier Canadian citizenship.

Its nothing but bigotry.

Not everything in the world related to people of different races is bigotry. Life isn't that simple. I know you lefties think it is, but it's not.

[marcinmoka]

On a lighter note, I'm glad (for my sake especially) we never enforced such measures during the Cold War.

Poor ol' Roncesvalles would of just not been the same.

[guyser]

Not everything in the world related to people of different races is bigotry. Life isn't that simple. I know you lefties think it is, but it's not.

It was bigotry and nothing more. The fact that people at that time were a little less understanding is valid, but bigotry it was , no matter how you slice it.

[betsy]

I think it is naive to assume that life goes on as usual during war-time. That it will not change people in some ways.

Suspicions and distrust towards the Japanese, are just a couple of emotions that some people may have had towards this group. These people need not be bigots or red-necks to have those feelings of doubts, although I have no doubt that racism and bigotry in others could've just as easily come to the fore.

If you ask any of your relatives who had lived during those times, ask them if it ever crossed their minds - even only once - to question...or to doubt the loyalties of Japanese living among them, I wonder how many of them can truly and honestly say:

"No. I NEVER had any doubts at all. EVERY SINGLE Japanese living in this country during that time did not have divided loyalties! I was sure of that."

I do not blame anyone who had entertained any doubts, nor do I think they were bigots....for I think "wariness" comes naturally in trying times such as war.

When I say it is for their own protection, I do mean just that. Those who'd lost a son or a father, small towns and counties counting the dead among its young boys and men, those who'd heard of the Japanese brutalities in prison camps, etc....these could all trigger something nasty.

Sure it's easy to say why didn't we let the cops protect them.....but is it that easy?

BUT, as I've said, what was wrong was the fact that the Japanese were treated like enemies,and their properties were taken away.

I remember being involved in a heavy discussion about a possible internment of Muslims (and of course the Japanese internment was also discussed) somewhere in this forum....but I couldn't remember the title of the topic, otherwise I would provide the link. I'll try to do a search.

[Drea]

Taking away their property was for "their own protection".

Yahhh riiiight.

You got land? You better give it to me, for your own protection of course. I need to protect you from burglars and the best way to do that is if you have nothing to steal. So hand it over.

You say we should not have treated them as "enemies". At the very same time you say "but we were at war".

Yes, we were at war with Japan.

We are not at war with a country today (apparently we are at war with "nouns" these days -- ie, war on terror, war on illiteracy, war on obesity, war on drugs -- ok "drugs isn't a noun but you get it??)

Muslims are from all corners of the earth. Should we "intern" all of them or just the ones from the "axis of evil"...?

[betsy]

Of course, the MAIN reason the Japanese were interned was the fact that the Emperor of Japan - whom Japanese consider "divine" - had called upon all Japanese, reminding them that they must be loyal to Japan, no matter where they were. That they were Japanese, first and foremost. This, combined with the well-documented atrocities of the Japanese Empire compelled our government to act.

The internment was the responsibility of our government. Not a whim or a bigotted move.

We should be so lucky that our government should have those balls now, because we're going to be in a similar situation soon....but with a much more imminent threat.

[betsy]

Muslims are from all corners of the earth. Should we "intern" all of them or just the ones from the "axis of evil"...?

Yes! Indeed! We should when it becomes an all-out war! And it soon will....the Taliban is already threatening attacks on our soil. Canadians will need a few of their children killed - rather than just those Israeli children - before they find it appropriate to react.

[Drea]

But muslims do not come from one single country. How on earth can we blame them all for the actions of a few extreme ones?

What if those crazies in that other country were YOUR race or religion?

Thankfully I look like the "majority" -- what about those who don't? Would we inter Hindus because they "look" like muslims?

Very slippery slope indeed.

Betsy, you say "when it becomes all out war". I believe the optimal word is "if".

Terrorists are not going to unite so that we have an "identifiable" enemy.

There is no one (or two or three or four) countries to "blame". These religious nutbars are from all over the world.

Canadians will need a few of their children killed - rather than just those Israeli children - before they find it appropriate to react.

comments like this sound like you are frothing at the mouth to have it happen... to justify your stance. Terrible IMO.

[betsy]

But muslims do not come from one single country. How on earth can we blame them all for the actions of a few extreme ones?

What if those crazies in that other country were YOUR race or religion?

Thankfully I look like the "majority" -- what about those who don't? Would we inter Hindus because they "look" like muslims?

Very slippery slope indeed.

I've said this before in that other thread long ago, and I'll say it again. If it is my ethnic group who is at war with Canada, I'd prefer to be interned!

What kind of a life would it be anyway for me being among people whom I think suspect, hate, resent or are wary around me - even if it's only paranoia on my part?

Do I want to live in fear everytime I go out to do my groceries that not some rabid emotional patriot will pound the daylights out of me?

That I must take very special care that my actions or words are not misconstrued....and attract suspicion or possible lynching?

Do you really believe I'd still enjoy the same life of true freedom I had before?

And what if indeed some people in my group are terrorists or traitors, hiding among us, using us as some sort of a shield? Us innocents will be more likely to get caught in the middle.

It's better that we stay "out of the way!"

Maybe it will be hard to intern people, ala-WW2, now in this situation. It's a different ball-game I must say.

But I guess they'll come up with something that will make it easier for them to monitor or keep track of the situation, and keep the rest of Canadians as safe as possible. Maybe instead of camps, they'll put us all in an island or a district? Who knows.

[betsy]

There is no one (or two or three or four) countries to "blame". These religious nutbars are from all over the world.

Then maybe the "criteria for internment" - or whatever form of "containment" the government wants to call it - will not be through race. It will be that of religion.