Explanations needed

[GostHacked]

Seriously answer these questions for me. I am surprised this thread has not happend yet.

I will ask you one thing. Leave religions out of this debate. Let's get down to the nitty gritty on it.

Why do terrorists hate us?

Why do they hate freedom?

If any of you people can come up with some intelligent arguments as to the why, I would love to hear it. I am pretty damn sick of hearing 'All well they are terrorists, they hate us and freedom'.

WHY? NAME YOUR REASONS?

EDIT

It should read "The 'Why do terrorists hate us'."

[buffycat]

Those are good questions, but may I request an agreed upon definition of terrorist before we start?

[margrace]

I had a lady who worked for me and she believed in reaching a joint decision about everything. When it did not go her way she would also advocate we needed a civil war to straighten things out.

So how can you define a terrorist?

[GostHacked]

Those are good questions, but may I request an agreed upon definition of terrorist before we start?

Sure, eventhough I am thinking it is quite obvious.

Context. Current War on Terror. USA, Taliban. Iraq. Eastern world terrorists. Western world targets. I don't want to bring religion, but for clarity. Fundimental Islamist Terrorists. Al-Queda of sorts.

I really am not a religious person, so I don't care to bring Islam, Chrisitanity,Judiasm. or any of that sort into it. I just want to find out why they hate us soo much to attack us like that. It just seems like I am missing something here.

[buffycat]

Thanks Gosthacked,

The reason I asked about an agreed upon definition is that usual saying: one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

So, by definition and for the sake of the thread is it agreed that a terrorist is one who consciously and knowingly kills innocents in order to further their idealistic desires?

It's not the easiest thing to define. I also understand you want to keep religion out of it - but I am not sure you can - since many terrorist acts are defined by extremist sects (Xtian, Jew, Muslim doesn't matter).

Sorry to be a stickler, but a definition is in order - a clear one.

As far as the context, War on Terror - IMO it is no different than the War on (some) Drugs, or the War on Illiteracy or the war on whatever - you can't wage war on a noun.

But, I'll give this: Why do they hate us?

Perhaps because through many years and various institutions (military/banking/aid) we have yolked developing country's ability to grow, to advance and to seek their own solutions. IOW - the West has messed around far too long and people are pissed off. IMO it has nothing to do with our so called freedoms (which are dissappearing rather quickly).

Make sense?

[kuzadd]

In other words, they don't hate "us", they hate Western government interference, though I prefer, resent, and it's totally understandeable,

[ScottSA]

They hate us for the same atavistic reason Hitler hated Jews. Yes, it really is that simple, although for the western mind this is too difficult to grasp, which explains why everyone feels the need to cast about for rational explanations. They hate us because we're not Islamic.

[kuzadd]

They hate us for the same atavistic reason Hitler hated Jews. Yes, it really is that simple, although for the western mind this is too difficult to grasp, which explains why everyone feels the need to cast about for rational explanations. They hate us because we're not Islamic.

Yah, and you hate them because they are.

which is BTW, totally irrational.

I see you buy into 'divide and conquer' quite nicely.

Do you enjoy the subjugation?

[betsy]

Seriously answer these questions for me. I am surprised this thread has not happend yet.

I will ask you one thing. Leave religions out of this debate. Let's get down to the nitty gritty on it.

Why do terrorists hate us?

Why Radical Muslims Hate You

Written by Rusty Wright

Historical Roots of Hatred

"The answer is complex and involves history, culture, politics, religion, and psychology.

In his October 2001 video, Usama bin Ladin mentioned the "humiliation and disgrace" tormenting Islam for "more than eighty years." Princeton Near Eastern scholar Bernard Lewis notes that the reference likely puzzled many Westerners. Many Muslims -- for whom Islamic history carries divine significance -- understood. Bin Ladin referred to the 1918 defeat of the once- mighty Ottoman Empire and to British and French partitioning of Ottoman territory. Secular Turks soon also abolished the caliphate, or succession of rulers of all Sunni Islam. Desecration of this symbol of Muslim unity has pained many Muslims ever since.{4}

For centuries, the Islamic world had displayed military, economic and scientific superiority. But European development eventually overtook Islam.{5} Today, United States ties with Israel and involvement in Saudi Arabia have kindled ire.

Bin Ladin calls on Muslims to "obey God’s command to kill the Americans and plunder their possessions . . . to kill Americans and their allies, both civil and military . . . ."{6} He and his sympathizers want to eliminate Western influence and restore their version of Islam to the world.{7}

Socio-cultural Roots of Hatred

History is behind some of the radical Muslim hatred of the West. But so are cultural differences. Would you believe that dancing in an American church helped fuel Muslim anger today?

In 1948, Sayyid Qutb visited the United States for Egypt’s Ministry of Education. His stay left him shocked with what he perceived as moral degeneracy and sexual promiscuity.

He wrote that even American religion was tainted by materialism and consumerism. Churches marketed their services to the public like merchants and entertainers. Success, big numbers, "fun," and having "a good time" seemed crucial to American churches.{8}

He especially deplored clergy-sanctioned dances at church recreation halls. When the ministers lowered the lights, the dances became hot. Here is Qutb’s "PG" description: "The dance is inflamed by the notes of the gramophone . . . the dance-hall becomes a whirl of heels and thighs, arms enfold hips, lips and breasts meet, and the air is full of lust." He cited the famous Kinsey Reports as evidence of American sexual debauchery.{9} Qutb, who was dark skinned, also experienced racism in America.{10}

Back in Egypt, Qutb joined the Muslim Brothers organization.{11} Imprisonment and torture made his writings more militant. Qutb became what Georgetown University religion and international affairs professor John Esposito calls "the architect of radical Islam."{12}

Secularization, consumerism, materialism, the status of women, sexual mores … all concern radical Muslims.{16} Bernard Lewis notes that Sayyid Qutb’s denunciation of American moral flaws became incorporated into radical Islamic ideology. For instance, he says Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini, in calling the U.S. the "Great Satan," was being consistent with the Koranic depiction of Satan not as an "imperialist" or "exploiter" but as a seducer, "the insidious tempter who whispers in the hearts of men."{17}

Political Roots of Hatred

Bernard Lewis -- who is not without his critics{18} -- notes an essential difference between Christianity and Islam regarding government and religion. Jesus of Nazareth, the founder of the Christian faith, said, "Give to Caesar what belongs to him. But everything that belongs to God must be given to God."{19} For much of history, this has been understood as recognizing the existence of two distinct authorities, one spiritual and the other political.{20}

But much of Islam has known no such distinction. Muhammad was both a religious and political leader, the Prophet and the head of state. Under his successors, the caliphs, Islam grew into a huge empire and world religion. Islamic shari‘a, or Holy Law, deals with power, authority and political philosophy. Specific applications differ among Islamic nations. In an extreme example of this spiritual/political blend, Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini once said, "Islam is politics or it is nothing."{21}

With this mindset, the Western world and the United States as superpower become to many Muslims the infidel invaders, imperialist bullies who desecrate Islamic states by force. European colonialism, Western imperialism and U. S. policies are frequent Muslim complaints.{22} Many Muslims deplore the U. S. invasion of Iraq. Of course, U. S. concessions to Israel often are seen as collaboration with an enemy of Islam.

Religious Roots of Hatred

Still other reasons some radical Muslims hate you involve religion.

Wahhabism, a movement much in the news, was founded by an eighteenth century theologian, Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al- Wahhab. Wahhab wanted to purify Islam and return it to its authentic ways. He condemned and burned books contradicting his views. Wahhab’s followers became fiercely exclusive. Their principal focus was not outsiders but insiders, Muslims whom they felt had practiced a "less-pure" form of Islam. They could be vicious, desecrating holy places and slaughtering Muslims who differed.{25}

Wahhabism’s ongoing Saudi links would propel it into international influence. When Saudi forces conquered Arabia in 1925, they controlled Islam’s two most holy cities, Mecca and Medina. When Saudi Arabia became oil-rich, the stage was set. Wahhabism became the "official, state-enforced doctrine of one of the most influential governments in all Islam,"{26} which hosts annual pilgrimages to Mecca involving millions of Muslims from around the world. Saudi oil wealth funded Wahhabi propagation of their views at home and abroad.{27} Wahhabism affected both Usama bin Ladin and the Taliban.{28}

Wahhabism’s pervasive influence troubles Princeton’s Lewis. Imagine, he says, that the Ku Klux Klan or a similar group took control of Texas and its oil and could widely propagate its version of "Christianity" through heavily endowed schools and colleges.{29} Georgetown’s Esposito distinguishes puritanical, politically conservative Wahhabism from radical, militant Wahhabism.{30}

Former CIA agent Robert Baer notes that Wahhabi soldiers fought the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s, with U.S. support. There, Wahhabis linked with radical followers of Sayyid Qutb, an alliance Baer likens to "mixing nitroglycerin in a blender."{31} A new, more militant strain of Wahhabism developed in addition to mainstream Wahabbism, with a new emphasis on taking the fight to outsiders: the infidels and the West.{32}

Psychological Roots of Hatred

In addition to the foregoing, there are psychological factors at work in radical Muslim hatred.

Lewis writes, "Almost the entire Muslim world is affected by poverty. . . ."{34} Georgetown’s John Esposito sees "weak economies, illiteracy, and high unemployment"{35} in many Muslim nations. Relative deprivation can be psychologically debilitating. If you are poor, some theories argue, and you see others more prosperous, you may feel inferior, trapped or depressed.

Reports from the United Nations and the World Bank note that Arab nations fall far behind the West in "job creation, education, technology, and productivity."{36} (There are, of course, exceptions.) When global media bring pictures of lavish Western life, frustration burns and some extremists lash out. One Egyptian playwright described these extremists as "pathologically jealous." He said, "They feel like dwarfs, which is why they search for towers and all those who tower mightily."{37}

Feelings of rejection play a part. Many Western societies have been slow to accept Muslims. The father of shoe bomber Richard Reid said of his son, "He was born here in Britain, like I was. It was distressing to be told things like ‘Go home, nigger.’"{38}

New York Times foreign affairs columnist Thomas Friedman speaks of a "poverty of dignity" affecting even privileged Muslims. Belief in Islam’s superiority contrasted with economic and military disparity in the context of a repressive regime can engender feelings of humiliation, prompting vengeance against the perceived cause.{39}"

http://www.probe.org/content/view/1086/162/

[sharkman]

They hate us for the same atavistic reason Hitler hated Jews. Yes, it really is that simple, although for the western mind this is too difficult to grasp, which explains why everyone feels the need to cast about for rational explanations. They hate us because we're not Islamic.

Yah, and you hate them because they are.

which is BTW, totally irrational.

I see you buy into 'divide and conquer' quite nicely.

Do you enjoy the subjugation?

You've written many such posts which reveal the contents ( or lack thereof) of your head. If you can't allow others to share their thoughts without such twitty knee jerking, your insistance in painting all conservative thought on this forum with the same brush will give you a nervous breakdown from all of the running around.

You can't leave religion out of it when the people you are analyzing for their hatred wear religion like a sword.

[betsy]

They hate us for the same atavistic reason Hitler hated Jews. Yes, it really is that simple, although for the western mind this is too difficult to grasp, which explains why everyone feels the need to cast about for rational explanations. They hate us because we're not Islamic.

Yah, and you hate them because they are.

which is BTW, totally irrational.

I see you buy into 'divide and conquer' quite nicely.

Do you enjoy the subjugation?

We are trying to have a discussion here. Your comment has nothing to do with the discussion at all.

It's purely a personal attack. It derails the conversation. And it lowers the standard of this forum.

If you've got nothing relevant to add, move aside!

[BC_chick]

They hate us for the same atavistic reason Hitler hated Jews. Yes, it really is that simple, although for the western mind this is too difficult to grasp, which explains why everyone feels the need to cast about for rational explanations. They hate us because we're not Islamic.

I have to ask, when you say "they" hate us, do you mean to perpetrators of 9/11 and the general consensus of extremists, or do you mean Muslims in general?

The reason I ask is because your explanation actually makes sense, IMO, for the former. But as time goes on and Western leaders abuse the events of 9/11, I think the latter start falling into that category as well.

Which is, unfortunately, what the "Hitler" types wanted - a united front against their perceived enemy.

[betsy]

Seriously answer these questions for me. I am surprised this thread has not happend yet.

I will ask you one thing. Leave religions out of this debate. Let's get down to the nitty gritty on it.

But we can't leave religion out of it. It is the nittty-gritty!

Osama Bin Laden and his sympathizers want to eliminate Western influence and restore their version of Islam to the world.{7}

Bernard Lewis notes that Sayyid Qutb’s denunciation of American moral flaws became incorporated into radical Islamic ideology. For instance, he says Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini, in calling the U.S. the "Great Satan," was being consistent with the Koranic depiction of Satan not as an "imperialist" or "exploiter" but as a seducer, "the insidious tempter who whispers in the hearts of men."{17}

Ayatollah Khomeini”s "Islam is politics or it is nothing."{21}

Wahhabism, a movement much in the news, was founded by an eighteenth century theologian, Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al- Wahhab. Wahhab wanted to purify Islam and return it to its authentic ways.

Former CIA agent Robert Baer notes that Wahhabi soldiers fought the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s, with U.S. support.

There, Wahhabis linked with radical followers of Sayyid Qutb, an alliance Baer likens to "mixing nitroglycerin in a blender."{31} A new, more militant strain of Wahhabism developed in addition to mainstream Wahabbism, with a new emphasis on taking the fight to outsiders: the infidels and the West.{32}

http://www.probe.org/content/view/1086/162/

[Leafless]

I have to ask, when you say "they" hate us, do you mean to perpetrators of 9/11 and the general consensus of extremists, or do you mean Muslims in general?

What a nonsensical question.

Whether pertaining to perpetrators of 9/11 or Muslims in general, what standard does one use to measure the degree of hate that exist in ones mind?

Is hate not suppose to exist in the minds of Muslims and is only suppose to exist to perpetrators of 9/11?

[BC_chick]

what standard does one use to measure the degree of hate that exist in ones mind?

I was not asking about the degree of hate, but merely asking for a clarification about who "they" are... because I get the feeling that Scott and Kuzadd are using two different criteria for the question.

Nonetheless, truth be known, there's all kinds of hate. I can hate your POV, but I don't hate you. I can hate you, but I could live side by side next to you. I could hate you and not want to kill you. Or I could hate you and do want to kill you. I could hate you and go as far as trying to kill you. Many different ways to hate someone.

[scribblet]

Many Islamists resented the west long before 9/11, the dancing in the streets of Cairo as people died tells us that, also opinion polls The Islamists rail against our freedoms and values which they see as decadent and irreligious. But maybe it is because they compare the west's wealth against their own poverty and lack of success so are just too willing to blame their problems on the infidel.

As far as the excuse of unemployment and poverty, this claim seems to be contradicted by the apparant good financial situation of AlQaeda's leaders and supporters as well as that of other terrorist groups, who seem to have unlimited funds for ammunition, bombs and other equipment. http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=arc...=sd&ID=SP162507 there's an excellent article on this and the 'culture of hatred'

There is also the presumption that Islam should be dominant religion wth a Caliphate holding power in the world as other religions and secularism are held in contempt. This presumption helps creates religious fervour and racist nationalism which stokes the fervour so you cannot separate their hate from their reliigion.

[sharkman]

They hate us for the same atavistic reason Hitler hated Jews. Yes, it really is that simple, although for the western mind this is too difficult to grasp, which explains why everyone feels the need to cast about for rational explanations. They hate us because we're not Islamic.

I have to ask, when you say "they" hate us, do you mean to perpetrators of 9/11 and the general consensus of extremists, or do you mean Muslims in general?

The reason I ask is because your explanation actually makes sense, IMO, for the former. But as time goes on and Western leaders abuse the events of 9/11, I think the latter start falling into that category as well.

Which is, unfortunately, what the "Hitler" types wanted - a united front against their perceived enemy.

You want clarification? Scott was referring to the same they kuzadd referred to in the previous post to his, which was referring to the origonal question which started this thread.

And since the haters in question are killing people, your hate paragraph is not needed. Ah yes, you won't see this post since you put me on your ignore list. Perhaps you hate me.

[scribblet]

You want clarification? Scott was referring to the same they kuzadd referred to in the previous post to his, which was referring to the origonal question which started this thread.

And since the haters in question are killing people, your hate paragraph is not needed. Ah yes, you won't see this post since you put me on your ignore list. Perhaps you hate me.

The culture of hate is so strong that they even send in a 9 month pregnant woman as a suicide bomber.

[capricorn]

Another pertinent question. Are the terms Islamic extremist exchangeable with the term Muslim extremist? Which one is appropriate in this discussion? Maybe both are.

[ScottSA]

what standard does one use to measure the degree of hate that exist in ones mind?

I was not asking about the degree of hate, but merely asking for a clarification about who "they" are... because I get the feeling that Scott and Kuzadd are using two different criteria for the question.

Nonetheless, truth be known, there's all kinds of hate. I can hate your POV, but I don't hate you. I can hate you, but I could live side by side next to you. I could hate you and not want to kill you. Or I could hate you and do want to kill you. I could hate you and go as far as trying to kill you. Many different ways to hate someone.

Yes, all very complicated indeed.

Why don't we just define hate as wanting to triumph over us by whatever means. Some are willing to act on it by any means anywhere at any cost, and others are willing to act on it under certain circumstances, and the vast majority hate passively, in that they don't want to act, but they want others to act and are willing to cheer them on or in many cases give them material aid. There are a few Muslims on the other side of the spectrum who put their humanity before their religion and actively fight fundamentalism, but by Islam's very nature, those Muslims are few and far between, and not strong enough as a faction to stop the fundamentalist juggernaut sweeping through Islam.

Islam thinks of the Ummah in very much the same way Hitler thought of the Aryan...one is defined by religion and the other by race, but the similarity in outlook is profound. If we keep trying to live in the myth that the "vast majority" of Muslims are actively pacifist, we're doomed. If we keep pretending that "civil rights" trumps our lives, we're doomed.

[betsy]

Nonetheless, truth be known, there's all kinds of hate. I can hate your POV, but I don't hate you. I can hate you, but I could live side by side next to you. I could hate you and not want to kill you. Or I could hate you and do want to kill you. I could hate you and go as far as trying to kill you. Many different ways to hate someone.

But it still all boils down to that, H A T E.

Someone who hates you but could live side by side with you will still have that hatred simmering underneath. Which is more dangerous I wonder? One who vocally expresses his hate....or one whose hate is just itching to be vented?

And HATE is what we're talking about. It is a very strong word.

It "implies a great dislike or aversion, and with persons as the object, connotes the bearing of malice." - Webster's New Word Dict.

You may hate our POV....but I don't think you wish us dead.

Let's not confuse simple "dislike" or "distaste" or "objection" or "aversion" with hate.

[betsy]

You want clarification? Scott was referring to the same they kuzadd referred to in the previous post to his, which was referring to the origonal question which started this thread.

And since the haters in question are killing people, your hate paragraph is not needed. Ah yes, you won't see this post since you put me on your ignore list. Perhaps you hate me.

The culture of hate is so strong that they even send in a 9 month pregnant woman as a suicide bomber.

And had used a child in one of the most recent bombing, I think.

[betsy]

Another pertinent question. Are the terms Islamic extremist exchangeable with the term Muslim extremist? Which one is appropriate in this discussion? Maybe both are.

As what the title says: "EXPLANATIONS needed."

I guess this thread means we'll be doing a lot of explaining....pretty much on almost everything we say!

And we start with the simple word "Hate."

Oh well, if that's the only way some will get it....why would we not give a helping hand?

[buffycat]

Osama bin Laden in his declaration of war in the 1990s said it was U.S. troops on the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia, U.S. bombing and sanctions of a crushed Iraqi people, and U.S. support of Israel's persecution of the Palestinians that were the reasons he and his mujahideen were declaring war on us.

Elsewhere, he has mentioned Sykes-Picot, the secret British-French deal that double-crossed the Arabs who had fought for their freedom alongside Lawrence of Arabia and were rewarded with a quarter century of British-French imperial domination and humiliation.

Almost all agree that, horrible as 9/11 was, it was not anarchic terror. It was political terror, done with a political motive and a political objective.

from: But Who Was Right – Rudy or Ron?

I think Pat sums things up quite nicely here - just as Paul did in the debate.

They 'hate' us because we've been over there KILLING them.

I think it is pretty simple, no need to bring religion into it.

[Leafless]

And had used a child in one of the most recent bombing, I think.

This proves other criteria must be included with hate to perform such a dastardly deed.

For instance why is it easier for some cultures/races to pull the trigger to kill someone or drive a knife deep in the body of someone, to purposely kill that individual?

The answer IMO is the level or degree of civilized behavior is embedded in that individuals mind which is influenced dramatically, by the degree of uncivilized behavior that individual is exposed to in their country of origin, combined with hate.

This is where I think our government as let Canadians down relating to all ethnic immigration from third world countries is not factoring in the level of civilized behavior and forcing the burden and potential life threatening ramifications onto a higher civilized Canadian population.

So relating to all Muslims in general from Islamic countries the only criteria separating a non violent Muslim as compared to the terrorist variety, is non-civilized and civilized behavior, with both behaviors obviously both actively pursued to whatever unknown degree in Muslim Islamic countries.

This is of course complicated by the fact there is no standard currently available to measure the degree of hate and civilized behavior thereby making all Muslims in general a potential risk as immigrants to Canada.