Khadr should make us ashamed to be Canadian

[GostHacked]

Kadr gets a military tribunal while the masterminds of 9/11 get their day in US federal court.

Seems a little disproportionate.

[jbg]

Kadr gets a military tribunal while the masterminds of 9/11 get their day in US federal court.

Seems a little disproportionate.

Both should get a military tribunal and a chance to meet either Allah for paradise or G-d for justice and forgiveness.

[Guest American Woman]

Mostly, yes. Of course it is incredibly wrong for the Taliban F-Heads to enlist kids. But it's also wrong for our side to treat those kids like normal adults when captured.

We can't treat them like "normal kids," either, though; as if they were raised in a 'normal' environment.

[eyeball]

We can't treat them like "normal kids," either, though; as if they were raised in a 'normal' environment.

That's why we have little choice but to treat them like kids that have been turned into soldiers when they get caught up or dragged into a conflict involving...soldiers.

What are we supposed to do otherwise, pretend our soldiers are actually policemen?

[Guest American Woman]

That's why we have little choice but to treat them like kids that have been turned into soldiers when they get caught up or dragged into a conflict involving...soldiers.

What are we supposed to do otherwise, pretend our soldiers are actually policemen?

Khadr was treated as a solder would be treated, and people are objecting to it because of his age.

[eyeball]

Khadr was treated as a solder would be treated, and people are objecting to it because of his age.

I objected from the get go because he was supposed to be treated like a kid. Now I'm also objecting because of the way our governments have done everything they can to subvert and evade the normal course of due legal process.

Khadr keeps getting more innocent over time not less.

Now I think he deserves an official apology not to mention an enormous cash settlement. From your country and mine.

As the thread title says Khadr has made me ashamed to be a Canadian.

Edited November 17, 2009 by eyeball

[Guest American Woman]

As the thread title says Khadr has made me ashamed to be a Canadian.

I want to comment on this first because I think it's sad that anything like this would make you ashamed to be Canadian. I've never been ashamed to be an American because of all the good people and all the accomplishments that I credit my country with. I've been ashamed of my government, but always proud of my heritage as an American.

I objected from the get go because he was supposed to be treated like a kid. Now I'm also objecting because of the way our governments have done everything they can to subvert and evade the normal course of due legal process.

Now I'm confused. Was he supposed to be treated like a kid, or like a soldier, as you had just claimed?

I don't think it's right to evade due legal process, but I don't see what that has to do with his age.

Khadr keeps getting more innocent over time not less.

If he's guilty as charged, he's still as guilty as he ever was. If he's innocent, he's still as innocent as he ever was. Our government's actions don't change that fact.

Now I think he deserves an official apology not to mention an enormous cash settlement. From your country and mine.

I can tell you right now that he won't be getting any cash settlement from my country, enormous or otherwise. I don't really understand your country's giving millions of dollars to a select few who were done wrong as the rest go without a dime.

Furthermore, his family should be held accountable for what he was put through, for his fighting with the enemy, not the taxpayers. Instead, his mother is held accountable for nothing.

[eyeball]

Now I'm confused. Was he supposed to be treated like a kid, or like a soldier, as you had just claimed?

Why are you confused? A Child Soldier implicitly means a Child 1st and a Soldier 2nd otherwise we'd be saying Soldier Child don't you think? But of course he's not really a soldier in a real army, just like the War on Terror isn't a real war. Perhaps that's why you're confused.

I don't think it's right to evade due legal process, but I don't see what that has to do with his age.

You don't see how the ambivalence towards his age or whether he's a soldier or whether he was in a real army makes evading due process easier? Its done nothing but make it easier for our governments to make shit up on the fly to confuse people with.

If he's guilty as charged, he's still as guilty as he ever was. If he's innocent, he's still as innocent as he ever was. Our government's actions don't change that fact.

No, its our willingness to be bamboozled by our government's ambivalence that's changing the facts. Our law and your's says if he's a child and especially a child soldier he can't even be charged never mind found guilty. Of course if we pretend he's not a soldier and is allowed to age into an adult with a scary looking beard...

I can tell you right now that he won't be getting any cash settlement from my country, enormous or otherwise. I don't really understand your country's giving millions of dollars to a select few who were done wrong as the rest go without a dime

.

I guess our Supreme Court judges must have a better understanding of the difference between right or wrong then your's does.

Furthermore, his family should be held accountable for what he was put through, for his fighting with the enemy, not the taxpayers. Instead, his mother is held accountable for nothing.

I agree that any parent who fills their kids heads full of crap should be held accountable but this doesn't excuse the government making things even worse.

We live in a democracy and as taxpayers in these we are responsible for the misdeeds and wrongful actions of our governments - I can live with the shame but I'd much rather see the politicians and bureacrats pay our fine.

Edited November 17, 2009 by eyeball

[M.Dancer]

Why are you confused? A Child Soldier implicitly means a Child 1st and a Soldier 2nd

It is you that is confused. A soldier means he is part of a recognised armed force with a clearly defined heirarchy and leadership and who openly bear weapons and wear uniforms.

He was part of nothing like that and until there is a convenion on child terrorists he should be treated as a mercneary and a criminal.

[M.Dancer]

Khadr was treated as a solder would be treated, and people are objecting to it because of his age.

Actually, no, he isn't being given the honour of being treated as a soldier. He is being treated as an illegal combatant.

[eyeball]

It is you that is confused. A soldier means he is part of a recognised armed force with a clearly defined heirarchy and leadership and who openly bear weapons and wear uniforms.

He was a kid Morris.

Do you think Jesus would endlessly quibble over picayune little details like you do?

[M.Dancer]

He was a kid Morris.

Do you think Jesus would endlessly quibble over picayune little details like you do?

Jesus, being an observant Jew would be a stickler for the law. As it stands being a kid is not the issue, the issue is whether he was a soldier. If he was a soldier, none of his "alledged" actions would be considered criminal. Since he is an illegal combatant, the only issue is if he is guilty of murder or a lesser crime including being an illegal combatant.

[GostHacked]

Actually, no, he isn't being given the honour of being treated as a soldier. He is being treated as an illegal combatant.

Exactly. Illegal combatants are classified in a way that the Geneva Convention won't be applied to them. Screwing them our of any justice that could benefit them if they are innocent.

If Kadr is guilty, he will be tried in a court along side KSM and the other planners of 9/11.

Edited November 18, 2009 by GostHacked

[M.Dancer]

If Kadr is guilty, he will be tried in a court along side KSM and the other planners of 9/11.

alongside? Do you think he was a 9/11 planner? No of course not. Otherwise he would face those charges.

[GostHacked]

alongside? Do you think he was a 9/11 planner? No of course not. Otherwise he would face those charges.

Let me clarify then. He should be granted the same courts that KSM is being tried in. Of course he won't be tried 'along side' with KSM.

[M.Dancer]

Let me clarify then. He should be granted the same courts that KSM is being tried in. Of course he won't be tried 'along side' with KSM.

Not saying he couldn't be or shouldn't be. But he ain't and with reason. Military courts are prefered for trying military crimes.

See Nuremberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsequent_Nuremberg_Trials

[Guest American Woman]

Why are you confused? A Child Soldier implicitly means a Child 1st and a Soldier 2nd otherwise we'd be saying Soldier Child don't you think? But of course he's not really a soldier in a real army, just like the War on Terror isn't a real war. Perhaps that's why you're confused.

First you said he should be treated like a soldier, then you said he should be treated like a kid. That's why I'm confused.

You don't see how the ambivalence towards his age or whether he's a soldier or whether he was in a real army makes evading due process easier? Its done nothing but make it easier for our governments to make shit up on the fly to confuse people with.

Others who didn't have any age issues didn't receive "due process" any quicker because of it. So no, I don't see what that has to do with his age. Furthermore, outside of the military, a 15 year old accused of killing someone has to be tried. His crime isn't dismissed because of his age. He doesn't merely forgo the legal system and go into 'rehabilitation.'

No, its our willingness to be bamboozled by our government's ambivalence that's changing the facts. Our law and your's says if he's a child and especially a child soldier he can't even be charged never mind found guilty. Of course if we pretend he's not a soldier and is allowed to age into an adult with a scary looking beard...

I don't think it's the beard most people find "scary." Personally, I would find a 15 year old with a weapon aimed at me just as scary as an 18+ year old. Do you feel otherwise?

I guess our Supreme Court judges must have a better understanding of the difference between right or wrong then your's does.

I couldn't agree with you less. Singling out a person here and a person there to hand a windfall to, as large numbers of those who were done wrong receive nothing, doesn't in any way indicate that your Supreme Court Judges have a better understanding of the differences between right and wrong.

I agree that any parent who fills their kids heads full of crap should be held accountable but this doesn't excuse the government making things even worse.

If the parents would have been prevented from taking their kids to terrorist training camps, then none of this would have happened. But not only did the parents do that to him, his mother is living without any repercussions in Canada. Yet I don't hear you calling for her to be tried. And from what I've read, child soldiers are supposed to be 'rehabilitated and reunited with their families.' Wouldn't that be a lovely situation? Just put the kid back with the family who made him what he is.

We live in a democracy and as taxpayers in these we are responsible for the misdeeds and wrongful actions of our governments - I can live with the shame but I'd much rather see the politicians and bureacrats pay our fine.

Then you should be outraged that your government allows this type of thing to happen in the first place. You should be outraged that Khadr's mother is still living free and without any repercussions in your country. She should be just as responsible for "misdeeds and wrongful actions" as the government is; and the government should see that she is.

[Gabriel]

American Woman, as usual, is absolutely correct. Omar Khadr's mother is a terrorist supporter living in Canada who draws moral and material support for terrorists. She needs to be arrested and executed.. Unfortunately, that's most likely not going to happen. Sometimes I wish we had some Casey Jones-type vigilante who would go around and eliminate these animals.

[eyeball]

Jesus, being an observant Jew would be a stickler for the law. As it stands being a kid is not the issue, the issue is whether he was a soldier. If he was a soldier, none of his "alledged" actions would be considered criminal. Since he is an illegal combatant, the only issue is if he is guilty of murder or a lesser crime including being an illegal combatant.

I fail to see what possible difference there could be between a soldier or a combatant - conflict children serves as a suitable neutral term don't you think? The point of course is that without any consistent principle that clears up the ambiguity, due process cannot unfold in a timely manner. Kids have an acute right to due process because of the importance of getting on with their recovery, rehabilitation and reintegration into society. This too is a right of theirs.

So do you honestly believe Jesus would be quibbling over the clothes Khadr was wearing or his armies credentials? I suspect he'd be shaking his head and saying "Do unto others yadda yadda" myself.

For some reason I just can't see Jesus saying lets get on with finding this filthy animal guilty so we can exterminate him.

[eyeball]

Not saying he couldn't be or shouldn't be. But he ain't and with reason. Military courts are prefered for trying military crimes.

See Nuremberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsequent_Nuremberg_Trials

They tried kids at Nuremberg too?

[GostHacked]

American Woman, as usual, is absolutely correct. Omar Khadr's mother is a terrorist supporter living in Canada who draws moral and material support for terrorists. She needs to be arrested and executed.. Unfortunately, that's most likely not going to happen. Sometimes I wish we had some Casey Jones-type vigilante who would go around and eliminate these animals.

Arrested and executed. Damn, you make yourself sound like a terrorist. CONVERT OR DIE !!!

[Gabriel]

Arrested and executed. Damn, you make yourself sound like a terrorist. CONVERT OR DIE !!!

Yes, how outrageous of me to demand that a Canadian adhere to the values of democracy and freedom. Quite different than demanding that I bow down before Allah. But in your moral relativist mind, neither civilization or value system is superior to the other.

[eyeball]

First you said he should be treated like a soldier, then you said he should be treated like a kid. That's why I'm confused.

Whatever I said, you can be sure I meant he should simply be treated like and referred to as a human being. If he doesn't have that right then none of us really do, which means we've lost because we're no better than what we're fighting against.

[GostHacked]

Yes, how outrageous of me to demand that a Canadian adhere to the values of democracy and freedom.

So by arresting and executing a person is part of our values and democracy? Does not our democracy demand he be tried first for his alleged crimes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

In April 2009, the Federal Court of Canada ruled that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms made it obligatory for the government to immediately demand Khadr's return. After a hearing before the Court of Appeals produced the same result, the government announced they would argue their case before the Supreme Court of Canada.[15][16] The Supreme Court heard the case on November 13, 2009 and their decision is pending.[17]

Quite different than demanding that I bow down before Allah.

Just don't bow down before any alleged 'god'.

But in your moral relativist mind, neither civilization or value system is superior to the other.

My morals include Omar being tried in court and all the evidence displayed out for all to see. If the evidence is good enough, then we should have no problem with a conviction and sentencing if that is the end result. Until then, we can't call for his indefinate detention without a court trial. That would go aginst our morals/values/democratic society.

If you are a person who really believed in our values and democracy in Canada, then you should have no problem with him having his day in court. We should be ashamed to be Canadian if we don't even hold ourselves to those same democratic values.

Edited November 18, 2009 by GostHacked

[Gabriel]

First of all, I was talking about his mother - she should be arrested and executed. Unfortunately, we don't utilize capital punishment in this country. His mother provides material and moral support to terrorists.

With respect to Omar Khadr, I am not opposed to his having a day in court. He will have his day in court. And he will be convicted. I can only hope and pray that he is executed, as well.

Lastly, in regards to the Federal Court of Canada demanding that the Canadian government make efforts to repatriate this piece of garbage that is Omar Khadr, this was clearly the court overstepping its authority and venturing into foreign policy. Regardless, Omar Khadr will have his fair chance at justice. American justice is second to none.

I suggest you read my posts more carefully before responding.