Religious Honor Killings

[Catchme]

No, Western culture as influenced by SECULARISTS...

If there were no nonbelievers Christians would still be stoning people, burning them for heresay, etc.

Even bad old islamists are waking up -- take a look at Turkey -- rallying for the separation of church and state!

they certainly are not rallying to become christians -- they want a seperation of church and state much like we have here.

Christianity is not better than islam -- its just that christianity has us sane folks to nip it's idiocy in the bud.

Theism belongs ONLY in the heart/mind of the believer, not in law or parliament, school or work.

Good point dea, western civilization as secularists, and I would say, progressive Christians too, have influenced our western NA culture.

As sharkman pointed out, the reality of truth behind the need for the separation of chuch and state, was in part fought for by Chrisitians, of course not the evangelical and catholic fundamentalist kind that existed back then and still today.

But his point on atheists not knowing where theism belongs is a confused bit of thinking. Of course atheists should, and would, know where theism belongs, why would they not?

The separation of church and state was a founding tenet of the U.S. constitution, written up in part by Christians who saw the faults of the British Government, and wanted none of the same. why should you, an athiest, have any idea at all where theism belongs. Hey, aren't you the one who said that religious extremists should have their tongues removed and their hands mutilated? That makes YOU and extremist.

Now drea, I do not really believe that your an extremist, because you have said that which sharkman mentioned. I take it as a symbolic thought process of punishment you were meaning. However, if you meant it, there is no mechanism in our society where this type of negative and harm to body parts actions against another can occur. And I know I certainly do not want Canada to embody that type of ideal, nor capital punishment.

People can most certainly worship whatever they choose freely, as long as they keep their choices from impinging upon mine, when they try to force their choices upon others, such as the Dominionists would, then that is where tolerence ends.

[sharkman]

You are saying we are free BECAUSE of christianity.

I am saying we are free IN SPITE of christianity.

Obviously islam is a stronger religion than christianity as they have been able to hold off the hordes of secularists for so much longer...

Not that they are any better than any other religion -- just better at controlling folks.

And islolation -- they've isolated their populace for so long they could tell them anything. But thankfully that is changing and even they are waking up to reality.

I don't think you are able to reason critically in this area. Again, the U.S. started the freedom when they separated church from state, 100s of yrs ago. Because of this movement, most Christian nations now enjoy freedoms, not in spite of it.

And whatever you think, at least you can see that Islamist nations are not free yet. Why, women are mere property, adulterers can get stoned and Christians go to prison in Muslim nations. Here, Muslims are free to worship.

[Drea]

Yah they are.

Take Turkey for example...

Also I have a young friend in Iran. She's attending university in Tehran with the goal of becoming an electronics engineer.

She has the internet (obviously as this is how we communicate).

75% of the population of Iran (70 million) is under 30 years old. They want what we have -- freedom from religion -- or at least they DID want it before a**hole Bush started threatening them -- now their Imams say "see you young people the west IS bad!"

[Drea]

Ok after all the fuss -- I take it back.

I would DUCT tape the mouths of the fanatics and tie their hands... better?

Of course as a person sitting on a computer somewhere I have no way of actually doing anything to any fanatic, no matter their fantasy...

[jbg]

Technically, these honour killings have more to do with culture than religion. The concepts predate Islam, Christianity and maybe even Judaism. I'll see if I can find the article later to link.

For once we agree. But the original point of Islam was to stanch the flow of blood.

It didn't work for them. It worked for Christianity and Judaism, albeit slowly.

[White Doors]

Ok after all the fuss -- I take it back.

I would DUCT tape the mouths of the fanatics and tie their hands... better?

Of course as a person sitting on a computer somewhere I have no way of actually doing anything to any fanatic, no matter their fantasy...

Zealot.

[GostHacked]

You seem to have missed the point. The U.S., by having a separation of church and state 100s of yrs ago is hundreds of years ahead of Islamist states like Turkey. What they and we in Canada have is among the freest in the world. You are free to be gay, while in Islamist states you are not. Refute that if you can...

There is no seperation of Church and State, in the US or Canada.

The "US is One Nation Under God" , On the US money, "In God We Trust" The seperation never happened. Or it is more sublte than you think.

[M.Dancer]

You seem to have missed the point. The U.S., by having a separation of church and state 100s of yrs ago is hundreds of years ahead of Islamist states like Turkey. What they and we in Canada have is among the freest in the world. You are free to be gay, while in Islamist states you are not. Refute that if you can...

There is no seperation of Church and State, in the US or Canada.

The "US is One Nation Under God" , On the US money, "In God We Trust" The seperation never happened. Or it is more sublte than you think.

Subtle isn't the word....simplistic perhaps. Simplistic if you think symbolism trumps the US constitution.....

[Catchme]

You are saying we are free BECAUSE of christianity.

I am saying we are free IN SPITE of christianity.

I don't think you are able to reason critically in this area. Again, the U.S. started the freedom when they separated church from state, 100s of yrs ago. Because of this movement, most Christian nations now enjoy freedoms, not in spite of it.

And whatever you think, at least you can see that Islamist nations are not free yet. Why, women are mere property, adulterers can get stoned and Christians go to prison in Muslim nations. Here, Muslims are free to worship.

No, actually sharkman, the US did not start the freedom, the people, who had the vision based upon knowledge and history of action in Europe, started the freedom. Those people were; progressive Christians/ Quakers, and Freemasons. There was actually more Freemason than other. The USA came after the fact.

Please do not give the USA, as an independant entity, greater store in history than it deserves. Canada, and how we developed, played a very significant part in how democracy has unfolded around the world.

Also, what are you talking about "Christian" nations? There is NO nation, except for perhaps the USA that runs around calling itself a "Christian" nation, as an identifier.

And I am sure the Christians in; Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the Emerates, Turkey, Lebanon, Indonesia, Dubai, and in most every, if not ALL countries, where Islam is the main religion, would be surprised to hear they were in jail. particularily when they are our in society functioning as they always have. Just as they have been free to worship Jesus.

sheesh, sharkman you need to get out and about in the world a bit more and learn yourself some actual facts instead of regurgitating the false drival from Hicks and Combee on world history, or from wherever you got it.

[betsy]

No, Western culture as influenced by SECULARISTS...

If there were no nonbelievers Christians would still be stoning people, burning them for heresay, etc.

Even bad old islamists are waking up -- take a look at Turkey -- rallying for the separation of church and state!

they certainly are not rallying to become christians -- they want a seperation of church and state much like we have here.

Christianity is not better than islam -- its just that christianity has us sane folks to nip it's idiocy in the bud.

Theism belongs ONLY in the heart/mind of the believer, not in law or parliament, school or work.

The separation of church and state was a founding tenet of the U.S. constitution, written up in part by Christians who saw the faults of the British Government, and wanted none of the same. why should you, an athiest, have any idea at all where theism belongs. Hey, aren't you the one who said that religious extremists should have their tongues removed and their hands mutilated? That makes YOU and extremist.

Yep! True!

Atheism is a religion - it's a polytheistic religion. The gods of atheists are the Self. Each atheist sees himself as a universe unto himself.

There's no greater fanatic than a ranting atheist bigot who doesn't have an inkling of the importance, let alone the meaning of the separation of state and church.

[betsy]

So what about these Muslim women in Canada, who claim to have been threatened by Taliban members/supporters with violence (including death) if they insist on practicing their freedom? That whether these women like it or not, they are bound by the strict rules of their religion!

So where do our feminist poster duo and ranting Christian-bashing twins stand on this issue?

They seem to be bent on spewing their venom this way when in fact their help is desperately needed that way.

Edited:

Now drea, I do not really believe that your an extremist, because you have said that which sharkman mentioned. I take it as a symbolic thought process of punishment you were meaning. However, if you meant it, there is no mechanism in our society where this type of negative and harm to body parts actions against another can occur. And I know I certainly do not want Canada to embody that type of ideal, nor capital punishment.

Baloney!

Catchme, if you slowly read what I wrote and try your darndest to understand....those muslim women I mentioned above are right here in Canada. And yes, they're talking beheading!

And what about the Indo-Canadian women I mentioned in the previous post? Yeah...yeah...you can say "well they didn't cut their hands"....but I'd re-butt and say burning you and stabbing you to death is one deadly capital punishment. No matter what, the outcome is being dead! LOL!

Never mind "negative and harm to body parts." LOL!

Well I'll say it again, being sisterly and all you know....THINK,GIRL! Watch what comes out of that mouth!

[Catchme]

No, Western culture as influenced by SECULARISTS...

If there were no nonbelievers Christians would still be stoning people, burning them for heresay, etc.

Christianity is not better than islam -- its just that christianity has us sane folks to nip it's idiocy in the bud.

Theism belongs ONLY in the heart/mind of the believer, not in law or parliament, school or work.

The separation of church and state was a founding tenet of the U.S. constitution, written up in part by Christians who saw the faults of the British Government, and wanted none of the same. why should you, an athiest, have any idea at all where theism belongs. Hey, aren't you the one who said that religious extremists should have their tongues removed and their hands mutilated? That makes YOU and extremist.

Yep! True!

Atheism is a religion - it's a polytheistic religion. The gods of atheists are the Self. Each atheist sees himself as a universe unto himself.

There's no greater fanatic than a ranting atheist bigot who doesn't have an inkling of the importance, let alone the meaning of the separation of state and church.

*clap* *clap* *clap*

WTG betsy, you go girl, keep on setting up that emotional straw man discription of what you believe an atheist to be, or at least spoon fed pap, about what they are supposed to be...And to say they do not know the impotance of separation of church and state, nor the meaning of it. Well, that is even a bigger strawman that you built to kick down.

You provide no evidence, no substantive example, no juxposition, well, no anything actually, and yet you want to people to just suck it up as if it is the truth, because you say so. And to boot you label them as bigots, all the while espousing absolute bigotry erroneous strawmen perspectives.

[betsy]

No, Western culture as influenced by SECULARISTS...

If there were no nonbelievers Christians would still be stoning people, burning them for heresay, etc.

Christianity is not better than islam -- its just that christianity has us sane folks to nip it's idiocy in the bud.

Theism belongs ONLY in the heart/mind of the believer, not in law or parliament, school or work.

The separation of church and state was a founding tenet of the U.S. constitution, written up in part by Christians who saw the faults of the British Government, and wanted none of the same. why should you, an athiest, have any idea at all where theism belongs. Hey, aren't you the one who said that religious extremists should have their tongues removed and their hands mutilated? That makes YOU and extremist.

Yep! True!

Atheism is a religion - it's a polytheistic religion. The gods of atheists are the Self. Each atheist sees himself as a universe unto himself.

There's no greater fanatic than a ranting atheist bigot who doesn't have an inkling of the importance, let alone the meaning of the separation of state and church.

*clap* *clap* *clap*

WTG betsy, you go girl, keep on setting up that emotional straw man discription of what you believe an atheist to be, or at least spoon fed pap, about what they are supposed to be...And to say they do not know the impotance of separation of church and state, nor the meaning of it. Well, that is even a bigger strawman that you built to kick down.

You provide no evidence, no substantive example, no juxposition, well, no anything actually, and yet you want to people to just suck it up as if it is the truth, because you say so. And to boot you label them as bigots, all the while espousing absolute bigotry erroneous strawmen perspectives.

Like as if I need evidence to express an opinion. Especially following such utter nonsense coming from the clones? LOL!

Anyway, I edited the other post above. You should go take a look...

[Drea]

You are stalking folks in threads now Betsy and its really getting old...

So what about these Muslim women in Canada, who claim to have been threatened by Taliban members/supporters with violence (including death) if they insist on practicing their freedom? That whether these women like it or not, they are bound by the strict rules of their religion

as this thread is about religion, lets stick to that shall we?

And you've just explained how stupid religion is (and unknowingly how woman ARE oppressed LOL) -- women being stoned etc. Shameful, pathetic human beings would do this to one another in the name of an invisible entity that may or may not exist. Simply pathetic IMO.

[sharkman]

Now drea, I do not really believe that your an extremist, because you have said that which sharkman mentioned. I take it as a symbolic thought process of punishment you were meaning. However, if you meant it, there is no mechanism in our society where this type of negative and harm to body parts actions against another can occur. And I know I certainly do not want Canada to embody that type of ideal, nor capital punishment.

People can most certainly worship whatever they choose freely, as long as they keep their choices from impinging upon mine, when they try to force their choices upon others, such as the Dominionists would, then that is where tolerence ends.

The reason you do not believe drea is an extremist is because you are one too, regularly making bigoted anti religion comments and seeing the Dominionists behind every rock.

[Drea]

I am an extreme non believer... ? LOL

I extremely believe that we have no daddy in the sky -- sorry kids you are on your own. No one is going to save you from yourselves so live your life happily -- it's all we got.

Cheers!

[sharkman]

I am an extreme non believer... ? LOL

I extremely believe that we have no daddy in the sky -- sorry kids you are on your own. No one is going to save you from yourselves so live your life happily -- it's all we got.

Cheers!

Come on, tell the truth, you believe aliens once walked the earth, the evidence of such coming from the bible you don't believe...

[Drea]

I cannot say for certain that is so BUT it is just as plausible (moreso in fact) than an invisible entity watching and judging...

I have read the bible (King James Version) and have read some ancient Sumerian texts (translated of course).

There are certain parallels yes. Does that mean I KNOW FOR SURE that aliens were here? Of course not. But I am wise enough to analyze the information and discuss the possibility, not simply swallow it because somebody told me I would go to hell if I didn't.

[Catchme]

Clones?

Glad to see you recognize it is just your uninformed opinion at work with you, and that your willing to inform people that is all you have to offer, that's a start.

Though editing posts of yours that were preceding to exibit something else, that was not even close to what was there, is a little off actually.

But I guess if one wants to deflect away from labels and erroneous conjecture and strawmen scenarios one uses, one will try anything.

Sorry, can't comment on these mythical Muslim women in Canada you speak of in your newly edited post, as you have provided no evidence, as far as I know it could be more wild conjecture on your part.

But it is a good example where extremists Christian dominionists would end up if they held sway.

[jbg]

There is no seperation of Church and State, in the US or Canada. The "US is One Nation Under God" , On the US money, "In God We Trust" The seperation never happened. Or it is more sublte than you think.

That's a "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" argument.

The First Amendment of the US Constitution, applicable by its terms against Congress and by virtue of the 14th Amendment made applicable against the States provides that government shall not establish a religion or prevent the free exercise of religion. What it does not do is forbid governmental reference to religion.

[betsy]

You are stalking folks in threads now Betsy and its really getting old...

So what about these Muslim women in Canada, who claim to have been threatened by Taliban members/supporters with violence (including death) if they insist on practicing their freedom? That whether these women like it or not, they are bound by the strict rules of their religion

as this thread is about religion, lets stick to that shall we?

And you've just explained how stupid religion is (and unknowingly how woman ARE oppressed LOL) -- women being stoned etc. Shameful, pathetic human beings would do this to one another in the name of an invisible entity that may or may not exist. Simply pathetic IMO.

Stalking my foot! Let's face it, whether we're talking religion or women's rights....you're bringing the same baloney reasonings into the topic at hand. Same cookie-cutter responses.

Another Example: Catchme's "Dominionist" that I see littering various topics! So don't give me that bull!

And your response is typical. Sweeping statement without thinking again!

I'd say yes, some religion are stupid and some religion really oppress women (treating them like chatels and no different than a goat...in this day and age!). By mentioning "stoning and oppression of women", what you are actually saying is the Islamic religion is stupid. And some other religions (which I can't think of at this moment) that burns or maim etc..,

So never mind this sweeping statement...you know what you actually want to say, but you just don't want to say it. You don't want to be precise because you are biased!

[betsy]

Clones?

Glad to see you recognize it is just your uninformed opinion at work with you, and that your willing to inform people that is all you have to offer, that's a start.

Though editing posts of yours that were preceding to exibit something else, that was not even close to what was there, is a little off actually.

But I guess if one wants to deflect away from labels and erroneous conjecture and strawmen scenarios one uses, one will try anything.

Sorry, can't comment on these mythical Muslim women in Canada you speak of in your newly edited post, as you have provided no evidence, as far as I know it could be more wild conjecture on your part.

But it is a good example where extremists Christian dominionists would end up if they held sway.

What edit? I quoted your whole statement but highlighted the offending parts. Even if you read it as a whole, the message is still the same! Of course, you don't understand that! And it's not just your message...it's also the tone!

The nerve to say that as a woman I cannot say what I think of men! Or anybody else for that matter!

Edited:

I'm back. Well, about the Muslim women in Canada, believe me that's no myth. It was in the news not too long ago (maybe 3 months or so)...and somebody posted a copy of that threat letter. I think it was Kimmy (not sure). Anyway, I haven't the time to search for it.

So, let's skip that then. But what about the plight of the Indo-Canadian women (also in the news). Actually I've given you that very same thing in another thread (I think somewhere in the Kissing thread).

Since somehow these two threads touches on the same argument....so I ask you about it again.

Edited (again!):

Here! This one!

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...1103?hub=Canada

[betsy]

Sorry, can't comment on these mythical Muslim women in Canada you speak of in your newly edited post, as you have provided no evidence, as far as I know it could be more wild conjecture on your part.

But it is a good example where extremists Christian dominionists would end up if they held sway.

Oh no, you can't just squirm out of it.... he-he-he

Sorry to disappoint you Ms Dominionist (is that your new handle btw?), but it ain't no myth, hon.

Tadaaaaa!

"MCC president and founder get another death threat

Extremist says, "I will slaughter all of you"

An extremist, swearing in the name of Allah, has threatened MCC president

Farzana Hassan and founder Tarek Fatah, promising to "slaughter" them along

with all members of the Muslim Canadian Congress.

Toronto Police are investigating the death threat, which was left as a message on

the telephone of MCC secretary general, Munir Pervaiz. Here is the full text of the warning:

"This is a warning to Tarek Fatah and Farzana Hassan and to all the members of your Munafiq (Apostate) organization. Wa Allah al-Azeem (In the name of God who is great), I swear… on all 99 names of Allah, if you do not cease from your campaign of smearing Islam...Wa Allahi, Wa Allahi, Wa Allahi, (by God, by God, by God), I will slaughter all of you."

Click here to listen to the actual recording of the death threat

If you recognize the voice on this threatening phone message, please contact Toronto Police, 51 Division, at (416) 808-5100

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/

[betsy]

So what about these Muslim women in Canada, who claim to have been threatened by Taliban members/supporters with violence (including death) if they insist on practicing their freedom? That whether these women like it or not, they are bound by the strict rules of their religion

as this thread is about religion, lets stick to that shall we?

And what do you think this is? Not religion???? LOL!

"MCC president and founder get another death threat

Extremist says, "I will slaughter all of you"

An extremist, swearing in the name of Allah, has threatened MCC president

Farzana Hassan and founder Tarek Fatah, promising to "slaughter" them along

with all members of the Muslim Canadian Congress.

Toronto Police are investigating the death threat, which was left as a message on

the telephone of MCC secretary general, Munir Pervaiz. Here is the full text of the warning:

"This is a warning to Tarek Fatah and Farzana Hassan and to all the members of your Munafiq (Apostate) organization. Wa Allah al-Azeem (In the name of God who is great), I swear… on all 99 names of Allah, if you do not cease from your campaign of smearing Islam...Wa Allahi, Wa Allahi, Wa Allahi, (by God, by God, by God), I will slaughter all of you."

Click here to listen to the actual recording of the death threat

If you recognize the voice on this threatening phone message, please contact Toronto Police, 51 Division, at (416) 808-5100

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/

THIS is the religion that you actually are referring to, Drea! Yet you continuously to deftly flip your flop, targetting the wrong group at every opportunity you get!

Your irrational tirade against Christian religion which tantamounts to no more than just plain christian-bashing squashed whatever credibility you have to say when it comes to RELIGION, WOMEN's RIGHTS, and OPPRESSION!

Why should we take your opinion (and Catchme's words of wisdom), seriously...and not tongue-in-cheek?

At least we've got some comic relief...if it's any consolation for us whose time had been wasted reading your barbs. Lol.

You're just one extremist waging a bigoted war against Christians!

[Drea]

I bash all religion equally Betsy

Did you know that Allah is the same god that you pray to?

That the "creation story" in Iran is the very same story told to you at your mamma's knee.

Those Indo Canadians (women and men) -- good for them for standing up for their rights as human beings.

No woman deserves to be killed for "honour" or for "disgracing" her family...

Good for those who would fight the religious fanatics -- whatever label they give themselves.

Good thing someone in the past stood up for OUR rights as Canadian women eh Betsy.