Insurgents 'right to take on US'

[kuzadd]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6618075.stm

Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.

Gen Sir Michael Rose also told the BBC's Newsnight programme that the US and the UK must "admit defeat" and stop fighting "a hopeless war" in Iraq.

Iraqi insurgents would not give in, he said. "I don't excuse them for some of the terrible things they do, but I do understand why they are resisting."

Sir Michael has written a book drawing similarities between the tactics of insurgents and George Washington's men in America's War of Independence.

He told Newsnight: "As Lord Chatham said, when he was speaking on the British presence in North America, he said 'if I was an American, as I am an Englishman, as long as one Englishman remained on American native soil, I would never, never, never lay down my arms'.

"The Iraqi insurgents feel exactly the same way."

FINALLY some common sense!!!!! Hurray!!!

He said it was time to bring troops home.

"It is the soldiers who have been telling me from the frontline that the war they have been fighting is a hopeless war, that they cannot possibly win it and the sooner we start talking politics and not military solutions, the sooner they will come home and their lives will be preserved."

This meant the UK government would have to admit defeat, he added.

"The British admitted defeat in North America and the catastrophes that were predicted at the time never happened," the ex-Bosnia UN chief said.

"The catastrophes that were predicted after Vietnam never happened.

"The same thing will occur after we leave Iraq."

historical perspective, reality check.

the US and Britian can't REALLY admit defeat, as the intent would have, had to have been to win, since the intent was only to occupy, conquer and divide, build military bases to launch further attacks, control the oil, etc., defeat, wouldn't be realistic. Perhaps they could call it a stalemate, to save face, spin it in some appropriate manner for the 'true belivers" to feel good, and simply put there tails between there legs and leave.

[Sulaco]

Really? No catastrophes at the end of vietnam. i guess that's true as long as the several million that died after US withdrawal are viewed merely as slant eyed gooks.

The commander is a dumbass.

[kuzadd]

Really? No catastrophes at the end of vietnam. i guess that's true as long as the several million that died after US withdrawal are viewed merely as slant eyed gooks.

The commander is a dumbass.

I don't know if you are correct, this is not the first time I have heard this type of comment wrt vietnam,

upon looking i can find no indication that your statistic of several millions dying afterward is correct, DIRECTLY related to US withdrawal.

It seems within approx 1-2 yrs after the peace accord, between the US, south and north was signed, things pretty much settled down.

This after how many years of continual warfare under US occupation??

wrt: "the several million that died after US withdrawal"

as opposed to the several million that died while the US occupied??

then died afterwards, from disease, malnutrition, slaughtering entire villages, then those that did and are still dying from the effects of napalm.?

[kuzadd]

another thing it has been reported:

Global Terrorism Rose Sharply in 2006

- WASHINGTON -

The State Department reported Monday that terrorist attacks jumped by 25 percent globally last year, claiming the lives of 40 percent more victims.

So all the while the US is fighting the "war on terror" ,terrorism is increasing?

The implications are obvious, the US "war on terror", is increasing terrorism, making everyone everywhere unsafer.

This general is again right on the money!

[PolyNewbie]

Even if the Americans withdraw now they have still won. The Federal Reserve is in Iraq and the American corporations own the oil fields.

They need to remain long enough to build those walls and build up sectarian violence so that the country divides into three or the Iraquies will get togather and throw the banks and Standard Oil out.

[kuzadd]

Even if the Americans withdraw now they have still won. The Federal Reserve is in Iraq and the American corporations own the oil fields.

They need to remain long enough to build those walls and build up sectarian violence so that the country divides into three or the Iraquies will get togather and throw the banks and Standard Oil out.

I understand what you are speaking about, but I think the General is speaking in a military sense, more so then all the rest of it.

But you are correct IMO, the US needs to be there to continue to foment trouble, so while the iraqis are 'occupied' on many levels, the US can go about there business, of controlling oil, and by enxtension countries who rely on ME oil, building military bases, taking over the economy, etc., etc.,

[PolyNewbie]

kuzadd:I understand what you are speaking about, but I think the General is speaking in a military sense, more so then all the rest of it.

Yeah but the military is just working for the Fed & the Standard Oil cartel. I wonder if Monsanto has gotten in to plant their GMO crops.

[buffycat]

kuzadd:I understand what you are speaking about, but I think the General is speaking in a military sense, more so then all the rest of it.

Yeah but the military is just working for the Fed & the Standard Oil cartel. I wonder if Montesanto has gotten in to plant their GMO crops.

Not to hijack, but Poly - Monsanto is already in Iraq. Order 81. Here's a google list:

http://www.google.com/search?q=monsanto+ir....netscape:en-US

Kuzadd, great article btw. There have been on many occassions brave military men who have seen things from the other's side. Sadly, this General's feeling will pass quickly as the msm continues to beat the drums for increased aggression, not only against Iraq but also against Iran. What a mess.

At times like these I wish Maj. Gen. Butler's wonderful and timeless piece "War is a Racket" would be compulsary reading FOR ALL.

*sigh*

[M.Dancer]

3/4 of a million ethnic chinese were expelled by the viet cong, estinated that 100,000 died.

The accepted death toll of the vietnam post war purge is around 430,000

[Guthrie]

Gee, if the Brits admit defeat in Iraq, why doesn't Shrub just pull out our guys and start a finger pointing war; he has always been much more effective in as a finger pointer than as a political leader or (god save us all) a commander-in-chief

We didn't lose the Iraq War --- The Brits Lost - Not US

[M.Dancer]

Gee, if the Brits admit defeat in Iraq......

Interesting, one retired british general = 'the brits'

[Guthrie]

Gee, is it just the one Brit admitting defeat? -- Well, sure the article only lists the one but I'll bet there are others.

[Figleaf]

Really? No catastrophes at the end of vietnam. i guess that's true as long as the several million that died after US withdrawal ...

Interesting. can you provide more information on these millions ... who they were (generally speaking), where the lived/died, and how they were killed? Also include some citations for your data please. I'm very interested in understanding this fully.

Thanks.

[Jerry Galinda]

War in Vietnam it was the worst "Business" for Vietnameses.

What for they struggled ?

South Korea - is independent , very rich country in comparison with North Korea.

Happily for them (South Koreans) the war finished and so more important - communism didn't defeat them.

[M.Dancer]

Really? No catastrophes at the end of vietnam. i guess that's true as long as the several million that died after US withdrawal ...

Interesting. can you provide more information on these millions ... who they were (generally speaking), where the lived/died, and how they were killed? Also include some citations for your data please. I'm very interested in understanding this fully.

Thanks.

Vietnam, post-war Communist regime (1975 et seq.): 430 000

Jacqueline Desbarats and Karl Jackson ("Vietnam 1975-1982: The Cruel Peace", in The Washington Quarterly, Fall 1985) estimated that there had been around 65,000 executions. This number is repeated in the Sept. 1985 Dept. of State Bulletin article on Vietnam.

Orange County Register (29 April 2001): 1 million sent to camps and 165,000 died.

Northwest Asian Weekly (5 July 1996): 150,000-175,000 camp prisoners unaccounted for.

Estimates for the number of Boat People who died:

Elizabeth Becker (When the War Was Over, 1986) cites the UN High Commissioner on Refugees: 250,000 boat people died at sea; 929,600 reached asylum

The 20 July 1986 San Diego Union-Tribune cites the UN Refugee Commission: 200,000 to 250,000 boat people had died at sea since 1975.

The 3 Aug. 1979 Washington Post cites the Australian immigration minister's estimate that 200,000 refugees had died at sea since 1975.

Also: "Some estimates have said that around half of those who set out do not survive."

The 1991 Information Please Almanac cites unspecified "US Officials" that 100,000 boat people died fleeing Vietnam.

Hanson, Victor Davis, Carnage and culture (2001): 50,000-100,000

Encarta estimates that 0.5M fled, and 10-15% died, for a death toll of 50-75,000.

Nayan Chanda, Brother Enemy (1986): ¼M Chinese refugees in two years, 30,000 to 40,000 of whom died at sea. (These numbers also repeated by Marilyn Young, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990 (1991))

Rummel

Vietnamese democide: 1,040,000 (1975-87)

Executions: 100,000

Camp Deaths: 95,000

Forced Labor: 48,000

Democides in Cambodia: 460,000

Democides in Laos: 87,000

Boat People: 500,000 deaths (50% not blamed on the Vietnamese govt.)

ANALYSIS: I'd say the most likely total would be 430,000. That's 65,000 executions + 165,000 camp deaths + 200,000 boat people. It's unlikely that VN alone caused 460+87T democides in Cambodia + Laos since estimates of the total deaths in these conflicts only run to a half million or so.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm

[Jerry Galinda]

War in Vietnam it was the worst "Business" for Vietnameses.

They weren't reasonable.

[Guthrie]

Vietnam saw vastly greater numbers of violent deaths, casualties and destruction of property during the Vietnam war than anything following.

The North Koreans live in bitter poverty but South Korea is not tremendously better and it would not survive nearly so well if not for the money they take out of the pockets of Americans. Also, their war did not end, it is not officially over, even now.

Vietnam is now much better off than any time in it's history - and we never have had to fight the Viet Cong on Main Street USA, as the right wingers warned us we would when we demanded the troops come home from vietnam -- this seems to be a particularly notable paralell between Vietnam and Iraq - the bullroar claim that we will have to fight them on Main Street - what a pathetic example of cowardice walking hand in hand with bullying

[kuzadd]

Vietnam, post-war Communist regime (1975 et seq.): 430 000, after the US left, does not come close to Sulaco's claim of "several million".

Nor does it compare to the number during the war "

The Vietnam War was finally concluded on 30 April 1975, with the Fall of Saigon. The war claimed 58,000 U.S. combat dead and the lives of between 2 and 5.7 million Vietnamese, a large number of whom were civilians. Although exact numbers are difficult to verify, the disparity in deaths illustrated the overwhelming superiority of U.S. firepower.

the 5.7 million figure is here, and how it was tallied : http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html

"The Agence France Presse (French Press Agency) news release of 4 April 1995 concerning the Vietnamese Government's release of official figures of dead and wounded during the Vietnam War.

HANOI (AP) - April 4. Cinq millions de morts: 20 ans apregraves la fin de la guerre du Vietnam, le gouvernement de Hanoi a reacute veacute leacute, lundi, le bilan d'un conflit dent le nombre de victimes avait eacute teacute minore a l'eacutepoque pour ne pas affecter le moral de la population.

Translation

The Hanoi government revealed on April 4 that the true civilian casualties of the Vietnam War were 2,000,000 in the north, and 2,000,000 in the south. Military casualties were 1.1 million killed and 600,000 wounded in 21 years of war. These figures were deliberately falsified during the war by the North Vietnamese Communists to avoid demoralizing the population. "

Overall it is understandable to see why the General, says the pullout from Vietnam, did not see any catastrophic results, as compared to what the war and continuing occupation was causing.

anyway, back to Iraq, looking at Vietnam, does also lead one to reasonably assume that Iraqi civilian death toll is likely 600,000 plus, thanks to the US invasion.

Also, interestingly the US virtually charged the Vietnames with "terrorism', as they too, fought to rid themselves of their occupier.

Still the only true terrorist is the invader/occupier.

That is exactly how, I would see it if Canada was invaded, In fact IMO, that is how any Canadian would see it ,if Canada was invaded.

[PolyNewbie]

When the Americans or Brits announce that they are going to invade a country it should be UN regulation that everyone just line up against a wall with their hands in the air or hand over all of their assets to the banks, Standard Oil, Monsanto & whoever else put the politicians in power to start the war. This way we would have a much more peaceful planet.

"Bank robbery" has sort of a dual meaning.

[Wilber]

Really? No catastrophes at the end of vietnam. i guess that's true as long as the several million that died after US withdrawal are viewed merely as slant eyed gooks.

The commander is a dumbass.

I don't know if you are correct, this is not the first time I have heard this type of comment wrt vietnam,

upon looking i can find no indication that your statistic of several millions dying afterward is correct, DIRECTLY related to US withdrawal.

It seems within approx 1-2 yrs after the peace accord, between the US, south and north was signed, things pretty much settled down.

This after how many years of continual warfare under US occupation??

wrt: "the several million that died after US withdrawal"

as opposed to the several million that died while the US occupied??

then died afterwards, from disease, malnutrition, slaughtering entire villages, then those that did and are still dying from the effects of napalm.?

Wasn't just deaths after the war. Never heard of the Vietnamese Boat People? Quite a few of them came to Canada, some on aircraft I was flying at the time. It was a mess, before and after the war. Iraq will be the same.

[Guthrie]

boat people were already brought up

[Figleaf]

Really? No catastrophes at the end of vietnam. i guess that's true as long as the several million that died after US withdrawal ...

Interesting. can you provide more information on these millions ... who they were (generally speaking), where the lived/died, and how they were killed? Also include some citations for your data please. I'm very interested in understanding this fully.

Thanks.

Vietnam, post-war Communist regime (1975 et seq.): 430 000

Jacqueline Desbarats and Karl Jackson ("Vietnam 1975-1982: The Cruel Peace", in The Washington Quarterly, Fall 1985) estimated that there had been around 65,000 executions. This number is repeated in the Sept. 1985 Dept. of State Bulletin article on Vietnam.

Orange County Register (29 April 2001): 1 million sent to camps and 165,000 died.

Northwest Asian Weekly (5 July 1996): 150,000-175,000 camp prisoners unaccounted for.

Estimates for the number of Boat People who died:

Elizabeth Becker (When the War Was Over, 1986) cites the UN High Commissioner on Refugees: 250,000 boat people died at sea; 929,600 reached asylum

The 20 July 1986 San Diego Union-Tribune cites the UN Refugee Commission: 200,000 to 250,000 boat people had died at sea since 1975.

The 3 Aug. 1979 Washington Post cites the Australian immigration minister's estimate that 200,000 refugees had died at sea since 1975.

Also: "Some estimates have said that around half of those who set out do not survive."

The 1991 Information Please Almanac cites unspecified "US Officials" that 100,000 boat people died fleeing Vietnam.

Hanson, Victor Davis, Carnage and culture (2001): 50,000-100,000

Encarta estimates that 0.5M fled, and 10-15% died, for a death toll of 50-75,000.

Nayan Chanda, Brother Enemy (1986): ¼M Chinese refugees in two years, 30,000 to 40,000 of whom died at sea. (These numbers also repeated by Marilyn Young, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990 (1991))

Rummel

Vietnamese democide: 1,040,000 (1975-87)

Executions: 100,000

Camp Deaths: 95,000

Forced Labor: 48,000

Democides in Cambodia: 460,000

Democides in Laos: 87,000

Boat People: 500,000 deaths (50% not blamed on the Vietnamese govt.)

ANALYSIS: I'd say the most likely total would be 430,000. That's 65,000 executions + 165,000 camp deaths + 200,000 boat people. It's unlikely that VN alone caused 460+87T democides in Cambodia + Laos since estimates of the total deaths in these conflicts only run to a half million or so.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm

Thank you for this.

If we accept Rummels estimate, the death toll falls short of Sulaco's estimate by at least a factor of c. seven.

A terrible toll nonetheless, of course.

[Guthrie]

yes a terrible number - but still not so devastating as the war itself - and people are still dying from the tools of the vietnam war, left behind, a surprise to take a childs arm or a farmers leg or a grandmothers life

the entire concept is just such a waste of time, energy and human potential

[Figleaf]

yes a terrible number - but still not so devastating as the war itself - and people are still dying from the tools of the vietnam war, left behind, a surprise to take a childs arm or a farmers leg or a grandmothers life

the entire concept is just such a waste of time energy and human potential

Not to mention the poisons that will last a generation or more. All for nothing.

[BC_chick]

kuzadd, the general's words are so logical, I can't believe anyone in their right mind would argue otherwise. The same people who proudly boast about their fathers and grandfathers fighting the invasion of the Nazis in WWII are quick to label Iraqis terrorists for doing the exact same thing for their country.