Its morally wrong for upping the gas prices!

[Topaz]

Here we go again!! Small town Ontario, gas prices were more than TO and then they came down to .99 for two days then shot up to 1.06!!!!! TO is still cheaper than small town Ontario!! What gives?????

[Charles Anthony]

People in small towns should pay more because of the extra cost to ship gasoline to their small towns.

[cybercoma]

What about people who pay more than that even in New Brunswick?

Should we be charged more for the extra shipping from Saint John, NB?

[geoffrey]

Correction CA, small towns should pay whatever the market price is for gasoline in said small town. If competition in Wawa drives the price down, then let it go down.

Small towns should inherently pay more for gas, but that is the reasonable direction for a profit interested enterprise.

[Charles Anthony]

Correction CA, small towns should pay whatever the market price is for gasoline in said small town.

Yeah, yeah, yeah and I forgot to say ceteris paribus too...

[B. Max]

People in small towns should pay more because of the extra cost to ship gasoline to their small towns.

Yeah but the cost is small when spread over the number of liters on a load.

[Posit]

At a $1.06 or $1.20 per litre, gas is still affordable and reasonable. IF the higher prices of gas alarm you then I suggest buying smaller vehicles and driving less. If you own an SUV or a pick-up and live in or near a small town, then you can easily afford much higher prices for gas, IMO.

[Charles Anthony]

Yeah but the cost is small when spread over the number of liters on a load.

So what? The cost still exists.

[cybercoma]

The price of non-renewable gasoline is much more reasonable than the renewable resource of... oh... say... milk.

[B. Max]

Yeah but the cost is small when spread over the number of liters on a load.

So what? The cost still exists.

Yes the cost exists and must be a factor. Most stations are within 500 miles of their refineries so you are only looking at about 1/2 a cent a liter for 500 miles.

[B. Max]

This is something everyone should see.

http://www.petro-canada.ca/en/media/296.aspx

[gc1765]

The price of non-renewable gasoline is much more reasonable than the renewable resource of... oh... say... milk.

I too find it odd when people complain about high gas prices, when it is still cheaper than bottled water, especially considering that it pollutes the environment.

[Adelle]

Get used to it, I think they are about to get a lot higher. The Minister of the Environment said as much and, even if he is wrong, the oil company's will use the new Green Plan as an excuse just has they have so many other things in the past. I don't know about you, but I'm saving for a Hybrid then they can only ding me for electricity and the little bit of gas I'll be using.

[geoffrey]

This is something everyone should see.

http://www.petro-canada.ca/en/media/296.aspx

I'm cautious of that chart. Depending on market pressures, ect., that mix changes daily (actually by the hour). they haven't updated that for years. The refining and marketing costs are transfered costs in most situations and some of thats additional profit to the company.

Get used to it, I think they are about to get a lot higher. The Minister of the Environment said as much and, even if he is wrong, the oil company's will use the new Green Plan as an excuse just has they have so many other things in the past. I don't know about you, but I'm saving for a Hybrid then they can only ding me for electricity and the little bit of gas I'll be using.

There are cars out there nearly as efficient as a hybrid, and likely better for the environment because they don't carry toxic batteries and have higher maintenance needs/costs. Hybrids are a big scam, be careful with that one. You'll never save the difference in less gas, and the emissions difference is negligable.

My car gets about 6L/100km on the highway. Not a hybrid or any other trendy car. It's city performance isn't so hot, but a good 70% of my driving isn't city thankfully.

[B. Max]

This is something everyone should see.

http://www.petro-canada.ca/en/media/296.aspx

I'm cautious of that chart. Depending on market pressures, ect., that mix changes daily (actually by the hour). they haven't updated that for years. The refining and marketing costs are transfered costs in most situations and some of thats additional profit to the company.

It's from 2005 and the only thing that really changes is crude cost. If it weren't for the government tax grab the price for a liter would be about half of what it is.

[sharkman]

In B.C., gas prices in little towns have traditionally been cheaper than Vancouver because of the GVRD tax of 10 cents charged on every litre sold in Van. I live about an hour outside of Vancouver, and in the last year our prices have at times been higher than the Great Vancouver Regional District. This means Gas corporations have been charging us at least 10 cents/ltr more than Vancouverites, and we have very little in the way of extra transportation costs. There is absolutely no rhyme or reason to it.

The prices around here have been 1.17/ltr. And others have said they pay around a buck in TO? That's crap. We live much closer to the buckle of the oil belt, Alberta! Seriously, we are being ripped of by the gas corporations and for some to say,"so what, buy a smaller car" is funny since these pro green people hate the corporations, except now when they are doing your bidding. meanwhile the Corps are reaping multi billion dollar profits every quarter.

What we really need in Canada is new capacity for gas production, there hasn't been any in close to 20 years. How much has the demand grown in 20 years? Cars have become more efficent than the gas guzzlers of the 80s, but Canada's population has grown much and capacity needs to grow as well.

The problem is the red tape and restrictions now in place make it hugely expensive and impossible to construct new plants, and we have the do gooder environmentalists in past governments to thank for this. I can't wait to see their outrage when they build new nuclear power plants in Ontario.

[geoffrey]

It's from 2005 and the only thing that really changes is crude cost. If it weren't for the government tax grab the price for a liter would be about half of what it is.

That's not true at all. Refinery costs are highly variable, when a refinery goes out of service, for example (they often do, fire, maintenance), costs increase at all other refiners due to supply and demand. When a supplier refines their own gas, the transferable cost increases due to the ability to sell refining capacity to others for a higher price.

If I have a million barrels to be processed into gasoline, people are going to charge more when there is less refining capacity.

In fact, over the last year, I'd gladly wager that refining and marketing costs are much more highly variable than crude.

This means Gas corporations have been charging us at least 10 cents/ltr more than Vancouverites, and we have very little in the way of extra transportation costs. There is absolutely no rhyme or reason to it.

Sure there is, your willing to pay it and no one is willing to open up a shop that sells it for less.

The prices around here have been 1.17/ltr. And others have said they pay around a buck in TO? That's crap. We live much closer to the buckle of the oil belt, Alberta! Seriously, we are being ripped of by the gas corporations and for some to say,"so what, buy a smaller car" is funny since these pro green people hate the corporations, except now when they are doing your bidding. meanwhile the Corps are reaping multi billion dollar profits every quarter.

Do you have a problem with oil companies making billions a quarter? Have any RRSPs?

I paid $1.05/L yesterday on regular gas.

The problem is the red tape and restrictions now in place make it hugely expensive and impossible to construct new plants, and we have the do gooder environmentalists in past governments to thank for this. I can't wait to see their outrage when they build new nuclear power plants in Ontario.

No, the problem is that the demand doesn't justify increased supply, otherwise someone would do it.

[theloniusfleabag]

The original statement is a bit misleading..."

It's morally wrong upping gas prices

". Actually, it is business. The 'market'. The 'market' itself is amoral, there really isn't a moral angle unless one tries to put one there. But then the 'morality of markets' conundrum wouldn't be limited to just the price of gas in it's scope.

[sharkman]

You don't see a problem with no new capacity in 20 years? Remember when there was a fire at a Ontario refinery plus the train strike? I think about 5 million people would beg to differ with you.

I do have a problem with any corporation making sudden windfall profits when they never used to. The reason no one else sets up shop is because it's a monopoly, or maybe even a cartel.

[Leafless]

Here we go again!! Small town Ontario, gas prices were more than TO and then they came down to .99 for two days then shot up to 1.06!!!!! TO is still cheaper than small town Ontario!! What gives?????

Only proves were not ALL EQUAL.

[B. Max]

It's from 2005 and the only thing that really changes is crude cost. If it weren't for the government tax grab the price for a liter would be about half of what it is.

That's not true at all. Refinery costs are highly variable, when a refinery goes out of service, for example (they often do, fire, maintenance), costs increase at all other refiners due to supply and demand. When a supplier refines their own gas, the transferable cost increases due to the ability to sell refining capacity to others for a higher price.

If I have a million barrels to be processed into gasoline, people are going to charge more when there is less refining capacity.

In fact, over the last year, I'd gladly wager that refining and marketing costs are much more highly variable than crude.

Maintenance costs from shut downs are factored in because they are a regular constant. The crude costs are a variable. A refinery knows what there costs are and what there margin is from their books, and the fact remains taxes in the end are about half the cost of a liter.

[Charles Anthony]

You don't see a problem with no new capacity in 20 years?

Not unless you identify what that problem is.

I do have a problem with any corporation making sudden windfall profits when they never used to.

Too bad for you. All of your gasoline-consuming friends and neighbors out-number you.

The reason no one else sets up shop is because it's a monopoly, or maybe even a cartel.

????

How is "a monopoly, or maybe even a cartel" a reason to prevent somebody from entering the market?

[sharkman]

You don't see a problem with no new capacity in 20 years?

Not unless you identify what that problem is.

I do have a problem with any corporation making sudden windfall profits when they never used to.

Too bad for you. All of your gasoline-consuming friends and neighbors out-number you.

The reason no one else sets up shop is because it's a monopoly, or maybe even a cartel.

????

How is "a monopoly, or maybe even a cartel" a reason to prevent somebody from entering the market?

1: I identified the problem. Our demand has increased while our supply has not. That is obviously not a problem for you, but we can't suspend the laws of economics and not suffer consequences.

2: No, most gasoline consumers are annoyed every time they fill up. Perhaps some clap their hands in glee, but logic dictates that paying more for something doesn't make people happy.

3: Do you not no how monopolies and cartels work?

[Charles Anthony]

First and foremost, it is not necessary to repeat a post in its entirety particularly when it immediately precedes your reply.

Secondarily,

1: I identified the problem. Our demand has increased while our supply has not. That is obviously not a problem for you, but we can't suspend the laws of economics and not suffer consequences.

Let us assume that you are correct: demand increased; supply has not. Your "problem" suggests that people are entitled to consume green-house gas releasing petrolium products at low prices.

2: No, most gasoline consumers are annoyed every time they fill up. Perhaps some clap their hands in glee, but logic dictates that paying more for something doesn't make people happy.

The happiness or annoyance of consumers is irrelevent.

The point is that consumers are purchasing the gasoline which leads to the profits.

3: Do you not no how monopolies and cartels work?

No, I do not. Please explain why you say there is "a monopoly, or maybe even a cartel" in the gasoline market.

[sharkman]

What my problem is suggesting is that people should not have to bear their gas bills going up 20% in one year(.95 to 1.17), which is inflationary and could itself start a recession in a weak economy. You obviously would love to see much higher gas prices, in which the poor of our nation would suffer most, and those sinful suvs would be banished to storage. We'll get there one day, but to allow gas corporations to gouge customers and make much bigger profits than normal is unjust, even if they are doing the environmentalists bidding.

Ah, but the happiness of the consumer is the underlying basis by which the capitalist system we have operates. That's what makes people purchase everything from houses to those dangerous little smart cars. But the point is not to have happy or unhappy consumers so much as to not have their disposable income greatly reduced by gas prices going through the roof.

As for the monopoly question, a few years ago in the lower mainland, an American discount gas company, Arco, began selling gas. For the next 2 years or so we had gas wars as the major players all lowered their prices to not allow Arco to gain a market share. They sold out shortly after. This is an example of all the players ganging up on a new comer. Now our local prices change every few days up or down, but it's all done within a couple of hours and every single one does it. A monopoly which has no competition and has gas up to .17/ltr more in Vancouver than Toronto, simply because it wants to.

In these matters you sound like a socialist with your disregard for capitalism, or at least a leftwinger. I suppose I am a rightwinger. It's no wonder we see things differently on this topic.