Troop surge is working

[Guthrie]

there were lots of ways to take out Saddam -- the Buschistas chose the stupidest, most costly, deadliest and most self defeating among them

no, there are no congratulations to be properly given the criminals in the oval office

[Canadian Blue]

ScottSA, is tizzy your word of the day?

[ScottSA]

It does just irk you into a tizzy when someone ever actually calls you on your fake education, eh Hitler?

Well gosh, woodie...calling me Hitler is pretty close to slander, don't you think? As is calling into question my education, whatever you think that might be...

[Canadian Blue]

ScottSA, no offense, but perhaps you should think before calling for another world war against Islam.

[Catchme]

Oh yes, the surge most certainly is working hard at putting innocent Iraqis deaths over the 1 million mark it seems

British backtrack on Iraq death toll

By Jill Lawless

Published: 27 March 2007

British government officials have backed the methods used by scientists who concluded that more than 600,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion, the BBC reported yesterday.

The Government publicly rejected the findings, published in The Lancet in October. But the BBC said documents obtained under freedom of information legislation showed advisers concluded that the much-criticised study had used sound methods.

The study, conducted by researchers from Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and the Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad, estimated that 655,000 more Iraqis had died since March 2003 than one would expect without the war. The study estimated that 601,027 of those deaths were from violence.

The researchers, reflecting the inherent uncertainties in such extrapolations, said they were 95 per cent certain that the real number of deaths lay somewhere between 392,979 and 942,636.

[ScottSA]

ScottSA, no offense, but perhaps you should think before calling for another world war against Islam.

I'm not "calling for" one brainiac. I'm merely pointing out that we're in one.

[Canadian Blue]

No, you're just calling for a war that would include 21% of the world's population.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, you're just calling for a war that would include 21% of the world's population.

I like those odds.....even China wants to crap on the K'uran...what a team!

[ScottSA]

No, you're just calling for a war that would include 21% of the world's population.

No, calm down, breathe deeply, and listen carefully. If someone were to tell you in 1939 that England was at war with Germany, would you get all aflutter and claim that he's calling for a war? Follow me here...I'm merely pointing out that we are in a war. That war is against Islam. I'm not calling for a war, I'm pointing out that we're already in one. Hope that clears things up for you

[Peter F]

No, you're just calling for a war that would include 21% of the world's population.

Follow me here...I'm merely pointing out that we are in a war. That war is against Islam. I'm not calling for a war, I'm pointing out that we're already in one.

We're not in a war against Islam. Never have been and hopefully never will be. Of course, there are folks that think we should be, but as yet we arn't.

[M.Dancer]

If we have to split hairs, we are at war with an element of Islam, that is undeniable.

[ScottSA]

If we have to split hairs, we are at war with an element of Islam, that is undeniable.

It is often denied nonetheless. Unfortunately it's a growing part of Islam, and it's growing fastest in the west. Particularly Europe; parts of which are teetering on the edge of civil war because of it.

[Guthrie]

The kind of racist hate and intolerance being spread by the fascist right is the real problem in the west. There is no holy war. Islam is not attempting to conquor the world --- small minded fools are trying to conquor Islam and it is a pathetic mess which has put the West and indeed the entire world at greater jeopardy.

What we should be doing, instead of surging troops, is dealing with the misguided fools who spread the garbage messages of greed and prejudice.

[M.Dancer]

If we have to split hairs, we are at war with an element of Islam, that is undeniable.

It is often denied nonetheless. Unfortunately it's a growing part of Islam, and it's growing fastest in the west. Particularly Europe; parts of which are teetering on the edge of civil war because of it.

Which part?

[ScottSA]

If we have to split hairs, we are at war with an element of Islam, that is undeniable.

It is often denied nonetheless. Unfortunately it's a growing part of Islam, and it's growing fastest in the west. Particularly Europe; parts of which are teetering on the edge of civil war because of it.

Which part?

Here's some remedial readuing. Fjordman is a well known writer on the topic. His english is a bit stinted, being an academic and a European an' all, but he's on top of it:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/03/...nst-swedes.html

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/05/...rk-side-of.html

[Black Dog]

Sweet Jesus it would be nice to get some new content from these clowns.

*tips back in rocking chair*

I been hearin' 'bout the Islamic menace back since the days of ol' Craig Read. Hell, I remember Montgomery Burns, ornery cuss that he was, postin' near the same damn links. *spits tabbaky* Yessir. These young pups comin' in all fulla piss and vinegar, all set on edcucatin'. I figger they just like chasin' their tails. *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

[ScottSA]

Sweet Jesus it would be nice to get some new content from these clowns.

*tips back in rocking chair*

I been hearin' 'bout the Islamic menace back since the days of ol' Craig Read. Hell, I remember Montgomery Burns, ornery cuss that he was, postin' near the same damn links. *spits tabbaky* Yessir. These young pups comin' in all fulla piss and vinegar, all set on edcucatin'. I figger they just like chasin' their tails. *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

So speaketh the folly of time...

Do you have any actual rebuttal to the articles, or are they outside your talking points handout?

[M.Dancer]

If we have to split hairs, we are at war with an element of Islam, that is undeniable.

It is often denied nonetheless. Unfortunately it's a growing part of Islam, and it's growing fastest in the west. Particularly Europe; parts of which are teetering on the edge of civil war because of it.

Which part?

Here's some remedial readuing. Fjordman is a well known writer on the topic. His english is a bit stinted, being an academic and a European an' all, but he's on top of it:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/03/...nst-swedes.html

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/05/...rk-side-of.html

Hold on...swedish society is on the brink of collapse and civil war, but Iraq ain't? The metrics must be extremely fluid......

Lets see, if 12% of iraq was foriegn born, preferably lutheran, perhaps they too would be on the verge of civil war?

Sorry, didn't find the opinion credible

[ScottSA]

If we have to split hairs, we are at war with an element of Islam, that is undeniable.

It is often denied nonetheless. Unfortunately it's a growing part of Islam, and it's growing fastest in the west. Particularly Europe; parts of which are teetering on the edge of civil war because of it.

Which part?

Here's some remedial readuing. Fjordman is a well known writer on the topic. His english is a bit stinted, being an academic and a European an' all, but he's on top of it:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/03/...nst-swedes.html

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/05/...rk-side-of.html

Hold on...swedish society is on the brink of collapse and civil war, but Iraq ain't? The metrics must be extremely fluid......

Lets see, if 12% of iraq was foriegn born, preferably lutheran, perhaps they too would be on the verge of civil war?

Sorry, didn't find the opinion credible

Then follow the primary source material in it. That speaks for itself.

[Black Dog]

Do you have any actual rebuttal to the articles, or are they outside your talking points handout?

First: "talking points" is pretty rich coming from you.

My rebuttal is simple. Urban immigrant youth crime is a problem in plenty of places. But there's no indication that the crimes are being driven by the religious identity of the perpatrators as oppossed to other factors. "Fjordman" even indicates as much:

Almost 90% of all robberies that are reported to the police were committed by gangs, not individuals. “When we are in the city and robbing, we are waging a war, waging a war against the Swedes.” This argument was repeated several times. “Power for me means that Swedes shall look at me, lie down on the ground and kiss my feet.” ...

Why do they hate Swedes so much? “Well, they hate us,” they answer, according to Petra Åkesson. “When a Swede goes shopping, the lady behind the counter gives him the money back into his hand, looks him into the eyes and laughs. When we go shopping, she puts the money on the counter and looks another way.” Åkesson, who is adopted from Sri Lanka and thus doesn’t look like a native Swede, says it was not difficult to get the boys to talk about their crimes. They were rather bragging about who had committed the most robberies. Malin Åkerström, professor in Sociology, can see only one solution to the problem: “Jobs for everybody. If this entails a deregulation of the labor market to create more jobs, then we should do so.”

This is no more a "civil war" than the gang violence in Toronto is represents a Jamaican assault on the west. These are problems on their own, but making them into something they aren't won't solve them.

[Canadian Blue]

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070409/wolin

There are also prodigious generational­ differences among Europe's Muslims. As a rule, Islamism's greatest appeal is among second- or third-­generation "immigrants": maladapted youth whom the integration process has failed and who feel desperately torn between two worlds--their parents' country of origin, which many have never seen, and their adoptive European homeland. Sadly, psychologists have shown that, whereas depression is prominent among first-generation immigrants who experience adaptational difficulties, schizophrenia­ predominates among mal­adjusted second-generation migrants. Such youth turn to Islamism in order to resolve what is often a severe and protracted identity crisis. Given the prevailing logic of social exclusion, it is little wonder that Europe's immigrant ghetto communities are concentrated in dismal neighborhoods characterized by high unemployment, poverty and criminality. Under these circumstances, fundamentalist Islam provides "existential meaning," a sense of belonging as well as an astringent critique of Western mores, which are often perceived as "corrupt" and "materialistic"--­a critique that resonates profoundly with the immigrants' own severe adaptational disappointments and failures.

I think these problems are much more complex. I also doubt that Islam is the sole contributor as ScottSA seems to believe. We aren't involved in a civil war in the west, to say so would only give racists an excuse to spread hatred against a minority.

[moderateamericain]

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070409/wolin

There are also prodigious generational­ differences among Europe's Muslims. As a rule, Islamism's greatest appeal is among second- or third-­generation "immigrants": maladapted youth whom the integration process has failed and who feel desperately torn between two worlds--their parents' country of origin, which many have never seen, and their adoptive European homeland. Sadly, psychologists have shown that, whereas depression is prominent among first-generation immigrants who experience adaptational difficulties, schizophrenia­ predominates among mal­adjusted second-generation migrants. Such youth turn to Islamism in order to resolve what is often a severe and protracted identity crisis. Given the prevailing logic of social exclusion, it is little wonder that Europe's immigrant ghetto communities are concentrated in dismal neighborhoods characterized by high unemployment, poverty and criminality. Under these circumstances, fundamentalist Islam provides "existential meaning," a sense of belonging as well as an astringent critique of Western mores, which are often perceived as "corrupt" and "materialistic"--­a critique that resonates profoundly with the immigrants' own severe adaptational disappointments and failures.

I think these problems are much more complex. I also doubt that Islam is the sole contributor as ScottSA seems to believe. We aren't involved in a civil war in the west, to say so would only give racists an excuse to spread hatred against a minority.

As much as I dislike the Islamic religion for its Intolerance and Barbaric interpretation by a few of its members, I think it would be slightly far fetched to say a civil war in Europe is brewing. I think the poverty and lack of jobs issue is more the reason then Islamic fundamentalism, at least in Europe.

[Guthrie]

the bigotry and intolerance promoted by racist morons against muslims today, is no different than those same attitudes being peddled by German Nazis in the 1930's

you want a chance to stop Hitler? he's posting hate of Muslims in your daily paper and in your online forums

[Liam]

the bigotry and intolerance promoted by racist morons against muslims today, is no different than those same attitudes being peddled by German Nazis in the 1930's

you want a chance to stop Hitler? he's posting hate of Muslims in your daily paper and in your online forums

I disagree. Hear me out, please.

I am fairly liberal in certain ways by US standards, probably centrist by Canadian standards. I don't think followers of Islam are evil. I don't think they shoud be villified or denied their rich religious heritage. That alone should set me apart from a 30's Nazi. I would hope.

However, there is something about certain apsects Islam that allows a sinister mindset to take hold. I'm not entirely convinced it is geopolitical (i.e., peoples' gravitating to Hezbollah because they stand up to Israel) and I'm not entirely convinced it's social (i.e., the tradition whereby women in certain countries wear black shrouds from head to toe). But there is something anachronistic about Islam, something regressive, something easily manipulated by charlatans -- much more so than any other religion. There is something aggressive and angry and unforgiving about it. I'll admit to my own ignorance and biases, but I can't help but conjure up images of Shia pilgrims whipping themselves to the point of bleeding or mobs of angry, head-slapping Saudis when someone published political cartoons.

I don't think purging of Islam is in any way justified, but I also think keeping a mindful eye on the situation is a prudent measure.

[Guthrie]

...

However, there is something about certain apsects Islam that allows a sinister mindset to take hold. I'm not entirely convinced it is geopolitical (i.e., peoples' gravitating to Hezbollah because they stand up to Israel) and I'm not entirely convinced it's social (i.e., the tradition whereby women in certain countries wear black shrouds from head to toe). But there is something anachronistic about Islam, something regressive, something easily manipulated by charlatans -- much more so than any other religion. There is something aggressive and angry and unforgiving about it. ...

all right, I've read your post, now I challenge you to defend it --- take this melange of vagueries and put some support for it -

there is something about certain apsects Islam that allows a sinister mindset to take hold.

What aspects? and what is the something to which you refer?

But there is something anachronistic about Islam, something regressive, something easily manipulated by charlatans -- much more so than any other religion

I dare you to defend this bigotry - I submit it is pure prejudice - not even anything concrete to say, just this hateful, 'boy there's sumpin creepy about those Islamites'

I suggest you do some self reflection and find how you came to such dishonest opinions.