Has Christianity made people more civilized?

[August1991]

VATICAN CITY: Pope Benedict strongly criticised the European Union yesterday for excluding a mention of God and Europe's Christian roots in declarations marking the 50th anniversary of its founding. In a toughly-worded speech to European bishops, Benedict said Europe was committing a form of "apostasy of itself" and was thus doubting its own identity. The Pope, who like his predecessor John Paul has often called for a mention of God and Christianity in the European Constitution, said leaders could not exclude values that helped forge the "very soul" of the continent. "If on the 50th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome the governments of the Union want to get closer to their citizens, how can they exclude an element as essential to the identity of Europe as Christianity, in which the vast majority of its people continue to identify," he said. Pope warned that Europe's revival could be threatened if it forgets its Christian roots and embraces a "peculiar form of apostasy."

Kuwait Times

My question is broader. Has Christianity made our world more civilized? I think so.

Without Christianity, our world today would be nastier.

[Melanie_]

Interesting question, August. I was discussing something along these lines with my 14 year old daughter yesterday (its amazing what comes up in casual conversation when you are just driving your kids around). Christianity has given a great deal of good guidance to people for 2000 years, and I would support the idea that some of the mythology of Christianity has value. But it has also been the instigator of so many narrow minded and hateful social constucts. Whether or not it has made people more civilized - more civilized than whom? Other cultures, or who we would have been in the absence of Christianity? How can we know that? I think each of us answering your question will have a different take on it, and each will have a measure of validity. My answer is that Christianity has had a net positive effect on humankind, but so too have other religions in their own cultural contexts.

[Canadian Blue]

I agree with Melanie 110%.

[August1991]

Whether or not it has made people more civilized - more civilized than whom? Other cultures, or who we would have been in the absence of Christianity?

In comparison to a world without Christianity. (Let's keep our hypotheticals to a minimum!)

All things considered, has Christianity been a civilizing force in the world? Would the world be a better place if Christianity had never existed?

My answer is that Christianity has had a net positive effect on humankind, but so too have other religions in their own cultural contexts.

Don't be shy. And certainly don't be smug or patronizing, if you honestly believe otherwise. Then, don't be shy to say what you believe politely.

[Catchme]

NO!

[Charles Anthony]

With respect, the poll question is meaningless without a definition of civilized.

I must be ornery on this one: my best guess is that Christianity has made no difference. People can interpret Christianity to justify taking up arms against an invading force. A Christian (or anybody else, for that matter) can always see himself as acting in self-defense despite evidence to the countrary. I am confident that without Christ on their side, politicians would justify warfare some other way. People can also interpret Christianity to justify submission to invading forces.

Here is what constitutes being civilized: putting down guns before talking. That is civilized. [Hmmm..... worthy of a thread of its own...]

[Posit]

With respect to the Americas, the Iroquois and and the Mayan were highly civilized agricultural societies that were attacked with the support of Christianity. In contrast the settlers that came here were fleeing persecution and poverty perpetuated by the wealthy Church in Europe.

I do believe that if you examine the conquests and colonization of peoples all over the world, that you will find that Christianity destroyed more than it saved.

[scribblet]

I believe it has. If people today did not have some governing force or belief which holds them back from doing harm IMO we would be in a far worse society. I would prefer to live in a Christian society than an Islamist state. I don't consider stoning women to death etc. civilized.

I don't have any stats but would it be fair to say that the most prosperous and democratic countries today are mainly Christian?

I also look at how the Christians in Britain were a driving force for abolishing slavery and improving human rights. William Wilberforce is a good example.

[Argus]

I agree with Melanie 110%.

Other religions have had a positive impact. I would question what positive impact Islam has had on the world. Nor or ever.

[Argus]

With respect to the Americas, the Iroquois and and the Mayan were highly civilized agricultural societies that were attacked with the support of Christianity. In contrast the settlers that came here were fleeing persecution and poverty perpetuated by the wealthy Church in Europe.

I do believe that if you examine the conquests and colonization of peoples all over the world, that you will find that Christianity destroyed more than it saved.

Highly civilized? They were savages. Plain and simple. More importantly, if the Europeans had never come here, life in the Americas right now would be largely unchanged from what it was five hundred years ago. They would still be primitives frightened of eclipses and worshiping the forest gods

[Figleaf]

I would certainly give credit to the philosophy of Jesus for making the world more civilized. I concur with Jefferson and Kant that the ethical system he appears to have articulated is pretty much irreproachable.

But Christianity? No. A fraud and perversion right from the get go. And, like almost all religions, it stands in inherent opposition the highest faculty of humankind.

[Figleaf]

I would prefer to live in a Christian society than an Islamist state. I don't consider stoning women to death etc. civilized.

The difficulty with that comment is that you don't live in a Christian society, you live in a liberal democratic society. Medieval Europe was a Christian society, and rather than stoning people, it burned them, broke them on the wheel, or drew and quartered them.

[Canadian Blue]

One other problem is that "Christian's" as a majority haven't necessarily made us more civilized. But the Christian's who have been in a minority fighting against things such as slavery, child labour, war, etc. did have a hand in making us more modern. But most of the time those Christian's who subscribed to the social gospel often found themselves fighting against the majority of Christian's.

[Remiel]

Hmmm...

Well, first of all, I would wager that Islam would have never had come to be, because the birth of Muhammed was of course dependant on specific circumstances that included Christianity. However, I wouldn't be surprised if some other popular religion eventually sprang out of Judaism. Who would know if it would have had the same momentum though...

So, without the Christians, the Roman Empire might have persitted as long as the Eastern Empire actually did, but it would have eventually collapsed. Without monotheism, the religions of the " barbarians " would of persitted, and much blood would have flowed. That being said, without the repressive side of Christianity, the Romans may have surpassed the scientific achievements that occurred during that time, and our " Modern Age " may have occurred hundreds of years prior to when it did. Maybe not, however. Everything is the product of a specific set of circumstances, and truly predicting the outcome of a different set is near impossible. Civilization would have likely won out in the end though. Syncretism would of eventually won the day, and instead of fighting between different versions of belief in a single deity, we'd be fighting over differing versions of multiple deities, unless some brand of Judaism did eventually become popular with the Romans, or if they eventually decided to worship only Jupiter as the Jews decided to worship only our God.

Its hard to say what would of become of the Americas during this time. They would eventually be discovered by Europeans, but whether it would of been sooner or later, and to what effect, who knows. If we assume that Europeans didn't discover the Americas until much later, my guess is that the Aztecs and/or the Inca would of eventually conquered the length and breadth of the continents. Since we know they had the knowledge to perform advanced mathematics, they may have been able to make enough advances during this time to put up more of a fight when the Europeans came. Assuming it was the Europeans, and not the Chinese or Japanese or Koreans.

Its impossible to say whether without Christianity, gunpowder would of been invented in China on time, but my guess is that it probably would of been. Trade between Europe and the East would of likely been quite similar with or without Christianity, so guns and cannons would of eventually become the order of the day with or without Christians, and much of the advances in warfare that came of that.

So, I would say that there is a distinct possiblity that without Christianity, the world could of been either radically LESS civilized, or radically MORE. It's probably more likely that civilization would be in the same ballpark it is now, though, plus or minus a few hundred years.

[Melanie_]

Whether or not it has made people more civilized - more civilized than whom? Other cultures, or who we would have been in the absence of Christianity?

In comparison to a world without Christianity. (Let's keep our hypotheticals to a minimum!)

All things considered, has Christianity been a civilizing force in the world? Would the world be a better place if Christianity had never existed?

My answer is that Christianity has had a net positive effect on humankind, but so too have other religions in their own cultural contexts.

Don't be shy. And certainly don't be smug or patronizing, if you honestly believe otherwise. Then, don't be shy to say what you believe politely.

Thanks for the posting advice, August. I'll try to keep all of that in mind, particularly the patronizing part. (this would be a good spot for an emoticon.)

I do think Christianity has had a positive impact, but how can we determine if the same impact wouldn't have happened without it? If Christianity had never existed, some other mythology would have filled that void, and we would be talking about the net positive impact of that belief system. The possibilities are endless - whose to say a better one wouldn't have evolved? Or a worse one?

[marcinmoka]

I would suggest that Christianity in it's present evolutive form has had a positive impact. But this cannot be said of Christianity throughout it's existence, especially when one thinks of the countless wars fought in its name.

Along with Judaism, it has strongly benefited from age as it seems to have attained a certain level of "maturity", one which respects and even embraces external elements originally deemed foreign to it's doctrines.

I would say the most fundamental of these external influences is the respect for academia and the sciences. While there are occasional flare ups over mundane issues such as abortion and gay rights, it is rather passive and has realized it's role in society, to be a positive influential force in fostering a sense of community, of altruism, rather then the be all and end all some other religious leaders and sects propose. But even for those other religions, time will change all, since age does reflect wisdom.

[marcinmoka]

One thing I do wish to avoid is this constant universal slandering (which I feel develops all to often) of juxtaposing religions against one another, notably Christianity and Islam.

Christianity was once at the same point where Islam is currently. A generally passive population with just a few over zealous demagogues at the top inciting and manipulating the masses to act out their traditional principles.

What we, the west should do, is to support the "reformers" such as the Tarek Fatah's of the word to perpetuate this evolution all across the board. We all know his resources are pale in comparison to those he struggles against.

[Catchme]

Cyrus the Great, was the person from which today's notion of "civilaization" are modeled, though for some reason "Christians" seem to they they evolved them, and didn't.

The Cyrus Cylinder contains all the teachings in base form.

http://www.cyrusgreat.com/

Really, today's self professed "Christians" really need to study actual history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great

http://oznet.net/cyrus/cyframe.htm

There is NO proof that a man named Jesus existed in history, there is proof that the teachings attributed to him, existed long before the advent of the Council of Nicea and long before the split of the universal religion into Muslim and Christianity.

The word Christ is not a noun, not a personal pronoun, nor an adjective, it is an ADVERB or a VERB.

[geoffrey]

The word Christ is not a noun, not a personal pronoun, nor an adjective, it is an ADVERB or a VERB.

Be careful Catchme, I'm going to Christ you... in a very Christly way. How does that make any sense as a verb or adverb?

[Leafless]

My question is broader. Has Christianity made our world more civilized?

Without Christianity, our world today would be nastier.

No doubt Christianity has served its purpose pertaining and relating to the advancement of civilization.

But in this country it is no longer required, as we have the Liberals and the Charter to advance us all to being 'elite citizens of the world'.

[jbg]

My question is broader. Has Christianity made our world more civilized? I think so. Without Christianity, our world today would be nastier.

I am Jewish and I voted Yes. Over the years, with a rush, for obvious reasons, after WW II Christianity has become a positive, civilizing force. Prior to WW II many portions of Christianity were active in the war business. As Christianity became disconnected from government, it has become much more of a theological rather than political force. This, on balance, is a good thing.

Momentously, the Catholic Church has turned 180 degrees away from its posture that Jews were Christ killers. Pope John Paul II recognized Israel. It is little known that only two men were mentioned in his will; one was the Grand Rabbi of Rome.

[jbg]

But in this country it is no longer required, as we have the Liberals and the Charter to advance us all to being 'elite citizens of the world'.

Part I of the Charter does begin: "Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:"

[Frankie]

I think it has had a positive effect on our world when followed correctly.

[Catchme]

The word Christ is not a noun, not a personal pronoun, nor an adjective, it is an ADVERB or a VERB.

Be careful Catchme, I'm going to Christ you... in a very Christly way. How does that make any sense as a verb or adverb?

Well, I suppose you could Christ me, if indeed you were in a state of Christ yourself. And then you would be doing it in the "Christly" way.

Do not tell me you really believe Christ is a noun or a personal pronoun?

The word Christ means to be "annoited with knowledge" or "being in a state of knowledge" the state of being in/annoited with knowledge is a verb, as it is an action.

And again, please do remember there is no such man known as Jesus, in history, to be annoited with knowledge even.

_________________________________________________________________________

JBG, your point about Christianity being disconnected from government is completely laughable.

[sideshow]

christianity is the religion of the day-it will die. it was a rough rip off of zorastrianism and was the vehicle to pillage other peoples property-just like other religions, political ideologies, capitalist promoters, etc.-same games, different people, new clothes. makes me laugh.

nothing like tithing 10% so someone can buy another jet to fly to australia to "spread the gospel" lol.