When is enough...enough?

[sideshow]

Well with all of your education, expertise, and experience, I dont see how any union could hold you back. You seem so massively employable and so much in demand, that I would think there would be hundreds and hundreds of opportunities for you-rather than pigeon holeing yourself into a situation that you dont like-working in a union shop.

Your ability to command an extreme salary and marketability would have me believe that the only reasons you could be held back by a union (as only 30% or so of Canadians are unionized) would be your own doing. I mean if people are offering you work, you have made more money, you are in demand, you have education, experience and skills, what are you whining about? Just go do it. Many others do, and don't complain about it.

[geoffrey]

Your ability to command an extreme salary and marketability would have me believe that the only reasons you could be held back by a union (as only 30% or so of Canadians are unionized) would be your own doing. I mean if people are offering you work, you have made more money, you are in demand, you have education, experience and skills, what are you whining about? Just go do it. Many others do, and don't complain about it.

The big issue in my case is that I was doing just that... until the union raised a big stink over it. I had all of that in a non-union position. And I'll have it all back quite shortly, which really why I'm sticking around.

Why can't they leave well enough alone?

I got a nice letter from then when they enrolled me without my consent into their little group of thuggery. They are here to protect my interests and give me job security??

What the hell? My interests are a paycut, stripping me of performance bonuses and benefits? Could have fooled me?

It's the ultimate in elitism I suppose. The union knows what's best for you, don't question it! Sillyness.

[sideshow]

Well I guess you always know where the door is if it gets to be too much.....

Ever wonder what you salary is based on? I mean where employers get these "arbitrary" numbers from?

[geoffrey]

Ever wonder what you salary is based on? I mean where employers get these "arbitrary" numbers from?

No, I know where they get the numbers from. The paybands were setup with various areas of the business, like an A-Class for admin, or B- for business services... whatever. Then they've been increased from that initial setup by annual pay increases.

If your talking about outside of union negoiation, they look at market conditions and send you an offer. Then you decide if it's good enough, what you want to change to better suit your lifestyle and send it back. I took a paycut from my initial offer to pick up a 4th week of vacation (useful for me with exams). I don't have a family and my health insurance is cheap, so I opted out to continue paying my current insurance instead, increasing my take home pay. My health living allowance was bumped up and they pay for relevant classes in school. All of this can be catered to the individual.

Then wam, I get thrown into a cookie cutter agreement a couple months later. How silly for the union to think they are protecting me and know what's best for me.

[Hydraboss]

I have a question....if teachers are really making $60-$100 per hour, why don't you become a teacher? Do you make this much money?

Sorry for not answering earlier. First of all, that's two questions.

1) I wouldn't become a teacher for good reason. My anti-union attitude would not be helpful in that work environment, and would only serve to be a burr in the saddle. I am not near liberal enough to be able to teach anything from the social courses, where I would enjoy teaching. There is also no way I could live with myself if I worked that little and sucked up that much in tax dollars from families. Although as the years go by, the working part time thing is looking good.

2) Let's just say I enjoy my current lifestyle, and would not be willing to give that up.

[gc1765]

Sorry for not answering earlier. First of all, that's two questions.

1) I wouldn't become a teacher for good reason. My anti-union attitude would not be helpful in that work environment, and would only serve to be a burr in the saddle. I am not near liberal enough to be able to teach anything from the social courses, where I would enjoy teaching. There is also no way I could live with myself if I worked that little and sucked up that much in tax dollars from families. Although as the years go by, the working part time thing is looking good.

2) Let's just say I enjoy my current lifestyle, and would not be willing to give that up.

Ok, fair enough, but my point is still valid. If teachers are making as much money as you say, why isn't everyone becoming a teacher? Is there a lot of competition to get an education degree, or competition for jobs? I would think so, given how much they are supposedly making.

[Hydraboss]

Why aren't more people becoming electricians? Or plumbers? They make comparable money. If Canada is so short of nurses, how come everyone isn't signing up?

Knowledge.

I don't believe that many people are aware of the working conditions/perks that teachers have (I'm just guessing now). Before I became active in this area, I only knew that teachers made good money and got summers off. With the exception of teachers themselves, how many people know about the 180.5 FDE work required per year? I didn't. As I started to investigate the CBA's at length, I began to realize just what a sweetheart deal they get.

Advice: If you respect teachers and think society gets their money's worth, stay away from the CBA's. They will only serve to change your mind.

[sideshow]

Why aren't more people becoming electricians? Or plumbers? They make comparable money. If Canada is so short of nurses, how come everyone isn't signing up?

Knowledge.

I don't believe that many people are aware of the working conditions/perks that teachers have (I'm just guessing now). Before I became active in this area, I only knew that teachers made good money and got summers off. With the exception of teachers themselves, how many people know about the 180.5 FDE work required per year? I didn't. As I started to investigate the CBA's at length, I began to realize just what a sweetheart deal they get.

Advice: If you respect teachers and think society gets their money's worth, stay away from the CBA's. They will only serve to change your mind.

This can be answered another way too-laziness and lack of money. Many dont have the funds to attend university to get the degree in the first place, and many many more are too lazy-first in high school-they dont get the marks or they drop out, and second, they are too lazy to commit 4 years to university when they can go work for great tips bartending and party it up.

And the same goes to other jobs as well. I mean plumbers etc. make good money. Lots of them are in the same sort of boat-work hard, make 60k a year-go on EI for 4 months in the winter. Same sort of deal as teachers get. But many people are too lazy to put in the first 4-5 years to apprentice and work the crap jobs for less money, be the grunt, etc. Its all me, me, me, now, now, now and they dont see the big picture.

Teachers have it good-no question. As do many many other jobs. But they have to put in a few years of "sacrifice" first-which, like any other professional position is necessary, but not everyone is willing to.

[Hydraboss]

100% agreed.

[Hydraboss]

bump for smallc and his cohorts

[Smallc]

Stupid poll.

[Hydraboss]

So now we know.

You're a teacher.

Actually, that clears up a lot.

[Smallc]

I'm not a teacher, but I used to be involved in education. Its still a stupid poll.

[Michael Hardner]

Hydra,

In Ontario Harris tried to fight the teacher's unions.

We all know how well that went.

It seems that those who feel the strongest about these issues are angry, but they let their anger get the better of them and suggest approaches that will never work. The issue is about 'out of class' time for teachers so I suggest that you start there if you want an improvement.

But, again, don't let anger drive you or you're done. Take your opponents' words as truth and work within their mindset to achieve your goals. If you think that class preparation time isn't required, then suggest eliminating it. If you think it is required, but isn't being done then come up with a way of measuring it.

[Hydraboss]

Michael, I could care less about teachers (other than I pay them). They rank right up there with postal carriers, politicians and those people who hand out samples at Safeway.

Except the samplers at Safeway actually work for their money.

You are right about the emotional response, though. Anger does not motivate me in this discussion. It does, however, seem to motivate the "pro-teacher" side of the debate who seem incapable of disputing numbers or even reading through the thread before commenting. My approach has been reasoned and supported by fact (links provided).

Who from the "pro" side can say that?

[Michael Hardner]

Hydraboss,

Actually, Catchme addressed the prep time and extra time issue.

eachers in BC are on the school premises from 8am to 4pm. One would assume it is close to those hours in all provinces.

They also do on average 2-4 extra hours/day normally in lesson prep, grading etc, the only time students mark papers is in quizzes, not full tests, nor any that have written components. This number increases at semsister end and finals time and report cards.

They also are dealing with 25 children all at once all day.

Insisting that lesson prep takes no time is absurb. Knowledge and information does not stay static, and if it is in AB no wonder you haven't changed governments in decades.

So you're wrong about this:

""pro-teacher" side of the debate who seem incapable of disputing numbers or even reading through the thread before commenting"

Come up with a response, or declare that Catchme is right. Don't just call the other side names when you haven't acknowledge their points.

I'm pretty familiar with teacher work, though not a teacher myself. I don't buy the prep time/marking time argument 100%, because I know many teachers do what Hydra says they do: they prepare courses in their first year and that's that.

So rather than have the two sides say "We do all of this extra work." versus "You don't do as much as you say you do.".... come up with an arrangement that answers the question. This happened with the NHL labour dispute when they had to come up with a mutually agreeable way to determine team revenues in order to implement revenue sharing.

[Hydraboss]

Hydraboss,

Actually, Catchme addressed the prep time and extra time issue.

So you're wrong about this:

""pro-teacher" side of the debate who seem incapable of disputing numbers or even reading through the thread before commenting"

Come up with a response, or declare that Catchme is right. Don't just call the other side names when you haven't acknowledge their points.

I'll be happy to declare Catchme correct, once I see evidence of one type or another that substantiates the basis of the statement. Saying "they do this, this and this..." is simply an opinion unless there is something to back it up. My arguement has been supported by cites, however, the "other side" simply believes that because they say it, it must be true.

Since you are familiar with "teacher work", can you provide said evidence? (And yes, we all know that the term "evidence" is subjective on a forum but anything is better than nothing and I will accept that.)

[Michael Hardner]

Hydra,

I'll be happy to declare Catchme correct, once I see evidence of one type or another that substantiates the basis of the statement. Saying "they do this, this and this..." is simply an opinion unless there is something to back it up. My arguement has been supported by cites, however, the "other side" simply believes that because they say it, it must be true.

Since you are familiar with "teacher work", can you provide said evidence? (And yes, we all know that the term "evidence" is subjective on a forum but anything is better than nothing and I will accept that.)

Ok, so you don't believe Catchme then. It is clear, though, that the teachers are paid to do marking and prepare for classes. To say that this is not happening is a claim that needs to be investigated. I didn't see a cite saying that it's not happening - if you have it pls repost.

As I said, I think a way to arbitrate this work is required rather than an assumption that the work isn't happening. Neither side would, I'm sure, agree to anything else.

I don't have any evidence either way, no.

[Hydraboss]

Michael,

I have said from the beginning that I know very well what a good portion of the local teachers do (my wife's family for instance). Prep and marking is almost non-existent. This does not constitute "proof" and I have admitted that. There is no way to prove a negative (cannot prove it's not happening any more than they can prove it is happening, therefore the side of the discussion with any proof wins the day).

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

I have also said that if the teachers want "credit" for all of these supposed hours and hours they spend outside of school, why do they refuse to agree to a number or a scale or something in the CBA's? If the school boards and the teacher's unions agree to some kind of number that forms the supporting basis for compensation, then put the damn figures in print and that will end the arguement. There will always be the nay-sayers (like me) but it would certainly take the wind out of my sails, now wouldn't it?

[punked]

Listen I am a teacher and my personal opinion what is best for the students is to either go to school longer or have shorter breaks. We teach our kids less then almost any other country. We could teach them and reach them so much more if we did 9-5 with them. It would make physical education for all students possible, open up time for civics classes and we would no longer need to cram everything in glossing over important things. They did it in Mass, and there test scores become some of the best in the US. Also parents no longer need babysitters saving them money as well. Although I am not in the Union full time yet so you wont hear me saying it in public, but that is what I think and it is true. If I have to work longer so be it.