House motion passes supporting Kyoto

[Catchme]

Looks like the CPC trying to play games and not put hard caps in place, and their wanting to waste time and money is for not. The CPC's blocking of their own Clean Air Act in committee went over like a lead ballon apparently. The government loses by 45 votes! 161 for the environment and 115 CPC against the environment.

So, the opposition parties finally stopped waiting on action on the environment, and made their own move, and Harper never even showed. What a marvelous example he is of a leader of a country, NOT! Even Canoe News noted he was a no show on a very important motion. The Bill coming up in a couple of weeks will be binding!

The Opposition apparently are going to get on with the business of running the country, seeing as the CPC won't or can't!

Seems theCPC are too busy with: making political attack ads and blamming the Liberals for everything, sending racist emails around, dealing with murder threat court cases, telling the Canadian military we are in Afghanistan for purpose of retribution, and entering into NO BID contrats worth billions, to try to govern effectively and maturely.

The Liberal motion, which passed 161-115 in the House of Commons Monday, is not binding, but it could embarrass the Tories and put more public pressure on them. "I think the government is feeling the heat," said Liberal Leader Stephane Dion, who introduced the motion.

"The key question is whether the government is going to accept strong measures and get moving," said NDP Leader Jack Layton.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who wasn't present for the vote, has said the Kyoto targets for cutting greenhouse gas emissions are unachievable.

The fact that the NDP and Bloc Quebecois supported the Liberal motion could spell trouble for the government down the road.

That's because the Liberals have introduced a bill with similar wording that would be binding if passed.

Also, the unanimity of the opposition parties on the Kyoto targets could make it very difficult for the government to salvage its centrepiece environmental legislation, the Clean Air Act.

"My hope is that what we'll be able to achieve at the end of the day is a recognition that these Kyoto obligations are ones that we have to honour," said Layton.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2007/0...3532520-cp.html

Monday's vote on the motion has no effect except that it puts MPs on the record. However, another vote on an opposition bill that would commit the government to Kyoto is expected in a couple of weeks.

The motion came as both parties hammer each other on their environmental record, and follows the recent surfacing of a letter Harper wrote in 2002 that derided the Kyoto accord.

The letter described Kyoto as a "socialist scheme" that is based on "tentative and contradictory scientific evidence" and designed to suck money out of rich countries.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/02/05/kyoto-vote.html

[Cameron]

"The key question is whether the government is going to accept strong measures and get moving," said NDP Leader Jack Layton.

Why didn't they do that to the Liberals with Kyoto? Typical.

So, the opposition parties finally stopped waiting on action on the environment

So they are just starting to get moving on the environment are they....took what, almost 10 years since signing...

[August1991]

This non-binding vote is, as they say in the trade, mere political posturing. I'd ignore the whole thing.

[scribblet]

After 13 years they finally decide to do something - sure - its the Liberals playing games.

[margrace]

Whether the liberals did something or not, it is how minority government works and I for one am happy to see it happening since Mr. Harper did everything he could to block and good government proposed by the liberals while he was in the minority government. He is a hypocrite bar none.

[Saturn]

"The key question is whether the government is going to accept strong measures and get moving," said NDP Leader Jack Layton.

Why didn't they do that to the Liberals with Kyoto? Typical.

Because the Liberals actually put a plan for GHG reductions in place in 2004. Harper canceled it and is now starting to reintroduce it piece by piece.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Because the Liberals actually put a plan for GHG reductions in place in 2004. Harper canceled it and is now starting to reintroduce it piece by piece.

They were in power for two years after that and never did anything?

Cancelling Energuide, streamlining it and bringing it back was a strong move.

Energuide used to spend 50 cents per dollar on administration. wtf???

[margrace]

It appears that to apply for energuide one must have an assesment, who pays for that? A lot of people needing help do not have that type of money or they would have started renovations.

And 50% spend on the dollar sounds awful but several years ago the Wish foundation for children was spending 90%

[Ricki Bobbi]

It appears that to apply for energuide one must have an assesment, who pays for that? A lot of people needing help do not have that type of money or they would have started renovations.

And 50% spend on the dollar sounds awful but several years ago the Wish foundation for children was spending 90%

Energuide used to pay for the assessments. They found that upwards of 80% of people would get the assessment on the Government dime then not go ahead with the renovations. So much for the lots of people needing help. The assessments are much less than the cost of the renovations, even after the subsidy.

IIRC with the new program people have to pay for the assessments, but *IF* they go ahead and get the work done their assessment money will be refunded.

50% spent on administration is awful. The Children's Wish Foundation should be ashamed of themselves, if your accusation is true...

[Argus]

This was a vote held for the benefit of stupid people. In other words, the opposition know there are a number of stupid people out there whose votes are just as good as smart people's votes, so they held this vote to convince the stupid people of how noble and caring they are.

I have watched the posturing by the opposition on Kyoto for the last year, and anyone who cares to can note something very obvious - about all three opposition parties: They know we can't meet our Kyoto targets.

They won't say it. But on the other hand, they won't say how we CAN meet them either. If they're asked, they'll drone on for several minutes about various programs and policies which would help to reduce our emissions. But they will NOT say these will allow us to meet our Kyoto targets. No opposition member, and certainly not any of the leaders, has come out with any plan or policy or statement which suggest that we can, in any way, come even close to meeting our Kyoto targets.

Because they all know there is no damned way we can cut emissions by over a third in eight years. The Liberals left it just too long. They never put any kind of policy in place, however half-baked, until at risk of losing to the Tories in 2004. And even that plan would not possibly have let us meet our goals under Kyoto.

So this is all sheer hypocrisy and posturing. They believe they can make themselves look good, and the Tories bad, and so they're going for it. It has nothing to do with the environment - it's not clear the opposition even gives a damn about the environment (certainly the Liberals don't) but about securing the votes of stupid people.

And as we can see from this thread, that strategy isn't necessarily a bad one.

[Argus]

Energuide used to pay for the assessments. They found that upwards of 80% of people would get the assessment on the Government dime then not go ahead with the renovations. So much for the lots of people needing help. The assessments are much less than the cost of the renovations, even after the subsidy.

IIRC with the new program people have to pay for the assessments, but *IF* they go ahead and get the work done their assessment money will be refunded.

Speaking as a homeowner who looked at the old program, I can tell you that the main problem in my eyes was that even if you had the house assessed, and spent a fortune on renovations, there was no guarantee of what you'd be getting from the government afterwards - if anything. It all depended on how much of a reduction your renovations actually resulted in. Then they'd do a calculation, and give you some pittance (in most cases) based on that calculation. I dismissed the program out of hand. I didn't waste my time on it. I had my doors replaced because I figured that was my worst energy loser, put in a programmable thermostat, and did a few other things. Would I have done more with a subsidy? Quite possibly, but not unless I knew what it was, and that it was guaranteed in advance.

[Argus]

"The key question is whether the government is going to accept strong measures and get moving," said NDP Leader Jack Layton.

Why didn't they do that to the Liberals with Kyoto? Typical.

Because the Liberals actually put a plan for GHG reductions in place in 2004. Harper canceled it and is now starting to reintroduce it piece by piece.

It wasn't a plan, as such. It was a collection of ideas and programs to reduce emissions. But it in no way would have allowed us to come anywhere close to meeting our Kyoto targets.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

If it was my call, I would take about 75% of the budget surplus and build some nuclear reactors. Stop talking about the problems and start acting on them. Energy production causes a fair chunck of the problem and needs to be rethought. The other 25% should be dumped into government research and development of other alternative energy production methods and means.

[Keepitsimple]

This was a vote held for the benefit of stupid people. In other words, the opposition know there are a number of stupid people out there whose votes are just as good as smart people's votes, so they held this vote to convince the stupid people of how noble and caring they are.

I have watched the posturing by the opposition on Kyoto for the last year, and anyone who cares to can note something very obvious - about all three opposition parties: They know we can't meet our Kyoto targets.

They won't say it. But on the other hand, they won't say how we CAN meet them either. If they're asked, they'll drone on for several minutes about various programs and policies which would help to reduce our emissions. But they will NOT say these will allow us to meet our Kyoto targets. No opposition member, and certainly not any of the leaders, has come out with any plan or policy or statement which suggest that we can, in any way, come even close to meeting our Kyoto targets.

Because they all know there is no damned way we can cut emissions by over a third in eight years. The Liberals left it just too long. They never put any kind of policy in place, however half-baked, until at risk of losing to the Tories in 2004. And even that plan would not possibly have let us meet our goals under Kyoto.

So this is all sheer hypocrisy and posturing. They believe they can make themselves look good, and the Tories bad, and so they're going for it. It has nothing to do with the environment - it's not clear the opposition even gives a damn about the environment (certainly the Liberals don't) but about securing the votes of stupid people.

And as we can see from this thread, that strategy isn't necessarily a bad one.

That about says it all - except we now only have 5 years to go until 2012.

[White Doors]

It appears that to apply for energuide one must have an assesment, who pays for that? A lot of people needing help do not have that type of money or they would have started renovations.

And 50% spend on the dollar sounds awful but several years ago the Wish foundation for children was spending 90%

YOU pay for it. Get the government TEET out of your mouth already margrace!

jesus.

[Wilber]

Looks like the CPC trying to play games and not put hard caps in place, and their wanting to waste time and money is for not.

Wonder if the opposition will have any more success meeting Kyoto's caps than they did when they were the government. Talk about playing games.

[Catchme]

Excuse me, may I ask why some seem to think that the Canadian government is separate and appart from Canadians? This means by way of government money. The money that the Canadian government has to use at it's disposal is Canadians money.

Moreover, it is money given, to maintain infrastucture and to fund programs/services for Canadians, that Canadians want and/or need. In effect, Canadians want our OWN money to be spent in the ways and manners that benefit us. It is NOT the governments money, there is NO teet to suck. Tax money is still our money, given to a central body, to maintain our country and our societal needs and people should start remembering this, instead of accepting the notion that somehow it is not OUR money once the government has it.

The government is us, not an entity in its own right. Democratric dictates mean that if Canadians were active in a governmental participatory manner, the government would be using our tax money, the way Canadians wanted it used, as opposed how it is currently, allowing the government to act as if it is an authority unto itself spending money how it wants.

[blueblood]

Excuse me, may I ask why some seem to think that the Canadian government is separate and appart from Canadians? This means by way of government money. The money that the Canadian government has to use at it's disposal is Canadians money.

Moreover, it is money given, to maintain infrastucture and to fund programs/services for Canadians, that Canadians want and/or need. In effect, Canadians want our OWN money to be spent in the ways and manners that benefit us. It is NOT the governments money, there is NO teet to suck. Tax money is still our money, given to a central body, to maintain our country and our societal needs and people should start remembering this, instead of accepting the notion that somehow it is not OUR money once the government has it.

The government is us, not an entity in its own right. Democratric dictates mean that if Canadians were active in a governmental participatory manner, the government would be using our tax money, the way Canadians wanted it used, as opposed how it is currently, allowing the government to act as if it is an authority unto itself spending money how it wants.

That's a very good point, and when our tax dollars start going to china and india and other countries to purchase carbon credits so we can meet our kyoto targets, us right wingers will hold you to that.

[shoggoth]

motion passes supporting Kyoto? That doesn't mean Kyoto passed does it?

[Alexandra]

It appears that to apply for energuide one must have an assesment, who pays for that? A lot of people needing help do not have that type of money or they would have started renovations.

Who do you think should pay for an energuide assessment other than the homeowner (you) Margrace? Do you think his, her or my tax dollars should be spent on those people "needing help" to pay for their home energy assessment/repairs? And, why was this energy assessment not done a few years ago. Why wait until 2006/7 and then complain (what else is new) about having to pay for your own home assessment/repairs?

Obviously 'some' people could care less about the environment when they can't even be bothered to do minimal home repairs or pay for an assessment to determine how in/efficient their home is.

[Alexandra]

Excuse me, may I ask why some seem to think that the Canadian government is separate and appart from Canadians? This means by way of government money. The money that the Canadian government has to use at it's disposal is Canadians money.

You are excused.

How many Billions of 'our' tax dollars are you willing to ship to Russia or the European Union in five years btw?

Jack Layton seems to believe that by paying off these countries with our Billions of tax dollars Canada will somehow(?) have eliminated it's burden under the Kyoto Protocol. What will Jack opine to all of those hardworking Canadian families who have been laid off from all of the various industries affected by the extreme measures necessary to cut even a small portion of the emissions under Kyoto?

Or, how does Jack Layton propose to honor all of the terms of the Kyoto Protocol?

Inquiring minds and all that ..........

[Saturn]

That's a very good point, and when our tax dollars start going to china and india and other countries to purchase carbon credits so we can meet our kyoto targets, us right wingers will hold you to that.

In that case, you right-wingers better get your act together because if we end up giving any of our tax dollars to China and India, we'll hold you responsible for that.

[Saturn]

Obviously 'some' people could care less about the environment when they can't even be bothered to...

Obviously a lot of people don't care about anything other than themselves and will engage in all sorts of destructive behaviour if there no negative consequences. That's where penalties and taxes for such behaviour come in.

[blueblood]

That's a very good point, and when our tax dollars start going to china and india and other countries to purchase carbon credits so we can meet our kyoto targets, us right wingers will hold you to that.

In that case, you right-wingers better get your act together because if we end up giving any of our tax dollars to China and India, we'll hold you responsible for that.

In the spirit of this, you are the ones making us honor kyoto, you are the ones responsible. And the mess that the left has given us doesn't leave us much options. We don't have to honor the protocol, what would the punishment be? That's why I support the clean air act, realistic enviro clean up while still helping out the economy and our tax dollars staying here.

[Alexandra]

Obviously 'some' people could care less about the environment when they can't even be bothered to...

Obviously a lot of people don't care about anything other than themselves and will engage in all sorts of destructive behaviour if there no negative consequences. That's where penalties and taxes for such behaviour come in.

Your answer then is to penalize or tax Canadians like Margrace for not conforming to any rules and regs. imposed by a government under the Kyoto Protocol? Like, failing to do repairs to a home under any new regulations enacted under Kyoto? Or, driving a vehicle to the office or mall or school, etc.?

That seems inevitable of course since there are only so many corporations , other than in B.C. and Alberta, which would be heavily taxed/fined by Dion or Layton therefore Dion/Layton would find it necessary to begin taxing/fining individuals who failed to obey all of the new regulations necessary to cut Canada's emissions. Is this what you were implying Saturn?

Where else will all of the Billions$ come from to be paid by Canada for it's failure to curb it's destructive tendencies (under Kyoto) ....