Simple Question for Those Who Dislike or are Neutral to Israel

[Black Dog]

What Israel did was a huge sacrifice for its citizens in an effort for peace. And the repsonse was for Hezbolah to start a mini war, in Palestine's name. How sickening. And we all know they fired their missiles from Hospitals, mosques, and residential areas, forcing the patients, worshippers and others to stay in place waiting for the inevitable response, all so they could then march the bleeding bodies in front of the westen media.

If you want to be precise, Hezbolah's war was completely unneeded, and only done in an effort to neutralize Israel's good gesture.

You do know Hizbullah is a Lebanese organization, and not a Palestinian one, yes? And that the war in 2006 was started when Hizbullah captured two Israeli soldiers on the Israel-Lebanon border. It had little to do with Gaza.

[sharkman]

Yes, but tell it to figleaf. And aren't they an arm of the Iranian army?

It may have started with kidnapping, but why do you think they would do such a provocative thing? They knew what Israel's response would be over time. In a game of chess, you think several moves in advance, and Hezbolah wanted to start something. Why?

[Black Dog]

Yes, but tell it to figleaf.

Why?

And aren't they an arm of the Iranian army?

If so, so what? What's the conection with the Gaza pull out?

It may have started with kidnapping, but why do you think they would do such a provocative thing? They knew what Israel's response would be over time. In a game of chess, you think several moves in advance, and Hezbolah wanted to start something. Why?

I'm sure they had reasons, but those were probably Hizbullah's reasons. How is the schemes of a Lebanese paramilitary group relevant to the question of Palestinian autonomy?

[Catchme]

You don't need special insight into the Arab mind to draw basic truths from the actions of Arab nations. It's weird really. They all hate the Jew. They want Israel to fail. Helping Israel's oppponent would hurt Israel. But they won't help their brothers build a nation. That's how strong their hatred of Israel is. Pathetic.

But perhaps a little more thought would help the insight, and would helpdraw some actual truth out?

Have you ever given any thought to the fact that the other Arab nations, that have the money and power, do not help Palistinians because they are buddies with the USA. Its a case of your friend is my friend.

Do you ever give any thought to the fact that other British Colonial nations do not give help by building factories etc for their brothers and sisters from other British Colonial Nations who may need it? They don't do it so why should Arab nations do it?

Do you really think ALL Arabs hate ALL Jews? If so, you need to revise that opinion too.

[sharkman]

You don't need special insight into the Arab mind to draw basic truths from the actions of Arab nations. It's weird really. They all hate the Jew. They want Israel to fail. Helping Israel's oppponent would hurt Israel. But they won't help their brothers build a nation. That's how strong their hatred of Israel is. Pathetic.

But perhaps a little more thought would help the insight, and would helpdraw some actual truth out?

Have you ever given any thought to the fact that the other Arab nations, that have the money and power, do not help Palistinians because they are buddies with the USA. Its a case of your friend is my friend.

Do you ever give any thought to the fact that other British Colonial nations do not give help by building factories etc for their brothers and sisters from other British Colonial Nations who may need it? They don't do it so why should Arab nations do it?

Do you really think ALL Arabs hate ALL Jews? If so, you need to revise that opinion too.

You believe Palestinians are buddies with the U.S.A??

The British are an apple/orange comparison. Palestine was not a colony of anybody.

EDIT: It appears you may have meant that the Arab nations are buddies with the U.S. Also not true...

[Black Dog]

EDIT: It appears you may have meant that the Arab nations are buddies with the U.S. Also not true...

Egypt and Jordan are two states whyo recieve a considerable amount of cashola from the U.S. They're not "buddies" per se, but they are in Uncle Sam's pocket.

[Figleaf]

Let's be precise. Israel withdrew its illegal settlers and ground-based military from a small part of occupied Palestine (the Gaza strip). Gaza's ports and borders remain under Israeli interdiction.

The Palestinian struggle for freedom didn't 'start' then. It continued.

What Israel did was a huge sacrifice for its citizens in an effort for peace.

"Huge sacrifice"? Hardly.

And the repsonse was for Hezbolah to start a mini war,

Hezbolah's activities had little to nothing to do with Gaza. As to who 'started' what, you seem to draw rather arbitrary lines.

[White Doors]

I think he was meaning to say Hamas. Mistake on the name does nto take away from the posters point which you are at pains to ignore. Interesting.

[Black Dog]

I think he was meaning to say Hamas. Mistake on the name does nto take away from the posters point which you are at pains to ignore. Interesting.

Clearly, he meant Hizbullah.

[White Doors]

Really? Because he was talking about the withdrawl of Israel from Gaza which has nothing to do with Hezbollah and everything to do with Hamas and the resultant consequences of it.

[Black Dog]

Really? Because he was talking about the withdrawl of Israel from Gaza which has nothing to do with Hezbollah and everything to do with Hamas and the resultant consequences of it.

I know. But what he said was worded and structured in a way which indicates he wa stalking about last summer's Lebanese/Israeli conflict.

i.e.

And aren't they an arm of the Iranian army?

[White Doors]

Yes my friend, but looking through the thread the poster clearly got confused. The posters initial point of Israel's futile attempt to withdraw from 'occupied territories' to promote peace is clearly valid to all of us that have studied it. Ironically Hamas and Fatah are now killing each other. Why?

[Rue]

JBG when you generalize all Palestinians in one lump sum negative category you are doing something just as wrong as when people lump all Zionists or Jews or Israelis into interchangeable negativegeneral categories.

You see who responds to your postulations? Its the same people who engage in the same tiresome generalizations against ALL Jews, ALL Jewish Israelis and all Zionists.

I will say it one more time JBG. As Jews, we are human. As Palestinians they are human. We both bleed the same blood and want the same things.

The fact that Palestinians are in the grip of terrorist organizations does not mean you should generalize against them all just as we as Jews detest it when people generalize about all Israelis or Jews.

The average Palestinian is no different then the average Israeli in the sense that they both want the following;

i-peace

ii-employment

iii-access to fresh water

iv-access to medical care and education.

See I do not doubt there are good people in Israel. But I also know not everyone in Israel is an angel. I also do not doubt there are good people who are Palestinians even though I know how violent Hamas or Intifada or the PFLP or Fatah can be.

All you will do is if you start off with the assumption Palestinians generally speaking are bad, is to encourage the Figleafs of the world. You reinforce their simplistic notions there is a bad guy and a good guy. You open yourself to the simplistic responses of Blackdog of Figleaf because you give them a simplistic paradign from which they respond.

It is not black and white. Its grey. No side has a monopoly on virtue or goodness or evil.

I have good friends who died as Israeli soldiers. It is in their memory I won't subscribe to the kind of hatred that dismisses all Palestinians as evil. That is not why they died and that is not what they would expect of me.

[gc1765]

Excellent post (above).

[Figleaf]

I think he was meaning to say Hamas. Mistake on the name does nto take away from the posters point which you are at pains to ignore. Interesting.

If he means Hamas but says Hezbolah, one must question his level of knowledge on the subject.

I'm not ignoring any point. If we're talking Hamas, then I've already answered the point -- Hamas continued its struggle after Israel pulled ground forces out of part of occupied Palestine.

Obviously, a merely partial pullou t is insufficient to resolve the conflict.

[Figleaf]

You see who responds to your postulations? Its the same people who engage in the same tiresome generalizations against ALL Jews, ALL Jewish Israelis and all Zionists.

Which poster is that? 'Cause no-one seems to have done that on this thread.

All you will do is if you start off with the assumption Palestinians generally speaking are bad, is to encourage the Figleafs of the world.

And what do you mean by that?

[White Doors]

And what do you mean by that?

Not sure what he means but I'd call you an ideological nitwit.

[Figleaf]

And what do you mean by that?

Not sure what he means but I'd call you an ideological nitwit.

Can't make an argument, so out comes the name-calling.

I've reported your post to the Admin.

[stignasty]

Excellent post (above).

Agreed. Isn't it interesting that it seems to have gone unnoticed?

[Black Dog]

The posters initial point of Israel's futile attempt to withdraw from 'occupied territories' to promote peace is clearly valid to all of us that have studied it.

I've commented on this on several occassions before, but I'll sum it up again. To say that Israel's withdrawl from Gaza was a ploy fopr peace is a willful or unintentional excercise in the dissemination of propaganda. Gaza was a relatively minor sacrifice for the Israelis to make in exchange for freezing th epeace process and expanding its West Bank settlements. The unilateral nature of the Israeli withdrawl also had the predictable consequense of creating a power vacumn, which was quickly filled by militant groups hostile to Israel.

[jbg]

JBG when you generalize all Palestinians in one lump sum negative category you are doing something just as wrong as when people lump all Zionists or Jews or Israelis into interchangeable negativegeneral categories.

You see who responds to your postulations? Its the same people who engage in the same tiresome generalizations against ALL Jews, ALL Jewish Israelis and all Zionists.

I will say it one more time JBG. As Jews, we are human. As Palestinians they are human. We both bleed the same blood and want the same things.

The fact that Palestinians are in the grip of terrorist organizations does not mean you should generalize against them all just as we as Jews detest it when people generalize about all Israelis or Jews.

This is a thoughtful post, though I disagree with its underlying view of the conflict, as opposed to statements of the facts. The facts, such as they are, are correctly stated.

My difficulty lies in the fact that most generalizations, in the real world, have some basis in fact. I am Jewish. I acknowledge that when I see a headline involving a financial fraud, I know the article will contain a sea of Jewish names. Why? Because that is the anti-social activity Jews are most associated with.

Similarly, the French, whether in Canada or France, seem to be bedeviled by petty corruption and a largely phony pacifiism.

I see nothing wrong with acknowledging an obvious fact, that Muslims in general, especially Arab Muslims, are unusually prone to massive, largely random and senseless violence. September 11 has much in common with pizza parlor bombings, which in turn have much in common with the violence of non-Israelites described in the Bible during the Abrahamic era.

The average Palestinian is no different then the average Israeli in the sense that they both want the following;

i-peace

ii-employment

iii-access to fresh water

iv-access to medical care and education.

Maybe, but their leaders think otherwise. Or else why is the massive UN aid diverted to violence, and Swiss bank accounts.

See I do not doubt there are good people in Israel. But I also know not everyone in Israel is an angel.

No question about it. I represent some Israelis and in general I do not like them as individuals. There are some I like but they tend to be virtually impossible to get along with. My support of Israel is based upon the Law of Return, and Israel's role as a forward base for democracies in a troubled, violent, dangerous and at the same time vital part of the world.

I also do not doubt there are good people who are Palestinians even though I know how violent Hamas or Intifada or the PFLP or Fatah can be.

I'm sure there are. Few of them are speaking up against the madness. Israel, on the other hand, is rife with "peace groups" that operate without being in danger for their lives.

All you will do is if you start off with the assumption Palestinians generally speaking are bad, is to encourage the Figleafs of the world. You reinforce their simplistic notions there is a bad guy and a good guy. You open yourself to the simplistic responses of Blackdog of Figleaf because you give them a simplistic paradign from which they respond.

It is not black and white. Its grey. No side has a monopoly on virtue or goodness or evil.

I have good friends who died as Israeli soldiers. It is in their memory I won't subscribe to the kind of hatred that dismisses all Palestinians as evil. That is not why they died and that is not what they would expect of me.

I agree with all of those facts. I just cannot, and will not, go towards a view that Israelis and descendants of Arab refugees are morally equivalent.

[blackascoal]

My point of my posting the article was to contrast the Israelis' emphasis on innovation and building and the "Palestinians'" emphasis on death. Too bad no one thinks to ask if the "Palestinians" have development plans or only military plans for any land they manage to obtain.

Frankly, too bad no one asks that question of "independent" countries created in recent years (other than Israel and perhaps India).

What the Palestinians do with their land is entirely up to the Palestinians.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with the evil of Israel.

[sharkman]

My point of my posting the article was to contrast the Israelis' emphasis on innovation and building and the "Palestinians'" emphasis on death. Too bad no one thinks to ask if the "Palestinians" have development plans or only military plans for any land they manage to obtain.

Frankly, too bad no one asks that question of "independent" countries created in recent years (other than Israel and perhaps India).

What the Palestinians do with their land is entirely up to the Palestinians.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with the evil of Israel.

In a thread that's 4 pages long, you choose to address a comment made in the second post on page 1? Keep trying!

[Higgly]

Maybe the Palestinians (if there are such people) ...

Ok. Here's the thing. What would be your reaction if somebody put up a post that said "Maybe the Jews (If there are such a people)...

[Higgly]

My point of my posting the article was to contrast the Israelis' emphasis on innovation and building and the "Palestinians'" emphasis on death.

I'm halfway through Carter's Palestine, Peace not Apartheid right now and I have learned so much that is not mentioned in the official "Israel wants peace" argument....

Read Avi Shlaim's "The Iron Wall" and Tom Segev's "One Palestine Complete". You'll learn a lot more.