Canadian troops

[Army Guy]

jdobbin:

If everyone cheerleads the mission, it doesn't serve the mission.

I think you would agree if there was a majority of Canadians or for that matter the west that supported the mission that the funding and manpower figures needed would be much more easily in coming.

How do you handle the problem of Pakistan? Can a war have a decisive victory with that country continuing to destabilize the region?

Well the west could bring about more polictical preasure to have them deal with these thugs, perhaps funding thier efforts into doing so..bribing them into action..And yes we can achieve a quick and decisive victory, if the support is there, funding and manpower would be available.. Afgan is one of the poorest nations i've seen, money talks and gets alot accomplished. the west has the tools and cash to deal with both nations at the same time...And once the people of Pakistan see victory in Afgan and every thing that will bring they just may change thier minds..and want a piece of the same action..

That question might make you angry but it is a question that goes to the heart of whether the mission can succeed.

We've already talked ourselfs out of victory, when we lost the public support for the mission when we already know what it takes to win, we just do not have the patients or will to accomplish a victory.

[jdobbin]

I think you would agree if there was a majority of Canadians or for that matter the west that supported the mission that the funding and manpower figures needed would be much more easily in coming.

Well the west could bring about more polictical preasure to have them deal with these thugs, perhaps funding thier efforts into doing so..bribing them into action..And yes we can achieve a quick and decisive victory, if the support is there, funding and manpower would be available.. Afgan is one of the poorest nations i've seen, money talks and gets alot accomplished. the west has the tools and cash to deal with both nations at the same time...And once the people of Pakistan see victory in Afgan and every thing that will bring they just may change thier minds..and want a piece of the same action..

We've already talked ourselfs out of victory, when we lost the public support for the mission when we already know what it takes to win, we just do not have the patients or will to accomplish a victory.

Canadians have been having a hard time supporting the mission since our allies seem so lukewarm on it. There was little feedback on the mission from Harper over the summer which didn't help. Even now, it is hard to get information. McKay is in Afghanistan today but they still won't allow a committee of Parliament to go because of security reasons. This is a little hard to understand when they are able to send Rick Mercer to Afghanistan.

Greater experts on Afghanistan that you or I have said that a quick victory is not in the cards. They said even with manpower and funding, it would not be fast nor easy.

[Army Guy]

Fortunata:

As for the rest about winning? Well we'll see. Nobody in either the former Liberal government or the Steve government has said what winning means. In my opinion this is so they can say we've won no matter what the actual expectations were and what the reality on ground is at that time. So, we can declare ourselves the winner no matter the situation.

I think if you vist the DND website it will clearly state what winning really means, accomplishing all of our mission statement, the only thing it does not spell out is how long all of this will take...This is my second tour over here and so much has changed over that period of time. i personally think if they could keep all the gains we've made to date they would already be better off.

A perfect example of that would be just outside of our camp there is a intra net cafe, opened up by a returning Afgan citizen...The cafee in itself is not a big deal it's the fact new bussiness are opening especially ones that were strictly forbidden by the taliban...

As for the rest of it, yes we know what we see on tv. I also have heard from NGO's and others that we are winning the same as the US is winning in Iraq. We win the battles. I do not think WE will win it. I think the Afghans will win it if they want to and if it is to be won.

I think for the most part you are right, i know the people are ready for peace. and the afganis are taking more of a hand in linberating thier country. but what is needed now is funding and more NATO troops for now until the Afganis can take control, without fear of dealing with the roaming gangs of thugs and scumbags.

[cynic43]

One wonders how many of the " rah rah let's go to war guys" actually try to enlist to fight the good fight?

Not many I assume as it is easier to cheerlead than play the game....( Bush is a helluva good example of that)

[Army Guy]

jdobbin:

Canadians have been having a hard time supporting the mission since our allies seem so lukewarm on it. There was little feedback on the mission from Harper over the summer which didn't help. Even now, it is hard to get information. McKay is in Afghanistan today but they still won't allow a committee of Parliament to go because of security reasons. This is a little hard to understand when they are able to send Rick Mercer to Afghanistan.

I'm not a big fan on the job that our government has done on the mission coverage, nor the media coverage for that matter. And will agree with you it has not been good for the mission. I think you will agree that Rick mercer does not pose the same target as a committee from parliament, whom would want to travel the area...the payout for the taliban would not be the same, Rick Mercer is a great guy but his vist would not urge a major attack from the taliban as a party from our parliment would. Putting thier lifes at risk along with all of ours...It would be a great victory for them to wipe out a party of our parliamentarians, regardless of the cost to them...

Greater experts on Afghanistan that you or I have said that a quick victory is not in the cards. They said even with manpower and funding, it would not be fast nor easy.

But without public support we both know that there will be no funding or for that matter more troops, there fore victory maybe slow in coming. And the slower it comes the less support there will be and the more risk our soldiers will have to face..But even the experts have said that victory is possiable with more funding and troops although it may not be fast it will surely be faster than it is moving now...

[Army Guy]

cynic43:

One wonders how many of the " rah rah let's go to war guys" actually try to enlist to fight the good fight?

Not many I assume as it is easier to cheerlead than play the game....( Bush is a helluva good example of that)

I think you'd be surprised if you polled the posters here how many are serving or have served in our nations Military. Or at least have ties with someone in the military.

[Who's Doing What?]

cynic43:

One wonders how many of the " rah rah let's go to war guys" actually try to enlist to fight the good fight?

Not many I assume as it is easier to cheerlead than play the game....( Bush is a helluva good example of that)

I think you'd be surprised if you polled the posters here how many are serving or have served in our nations Military. Or at least have ties with someone in the military.

Don't let any of these guys get you down Army Guy. Afghanistan is a just cause. Keep up the good work.

[madmax]

cynic43:

One wonders how many of the " rah rah let's go to war guys" actually try to enlist to fight the good fight?

Not many I assume as it is easier to cheerlead than play the game....( Bush is a helluva good example of that)

Don't let any of these guys get you down Army Guy. Afghanistan is a just cause. Keep up the good work.

Following the logic of this short thread, from Cynic43.

You ready to sign up, "Who's doing What?"

Or did you just prove his point.

[Who's Doing What?]

Following the logic of this short thread, from Cynic43.

You ready to sign up, "Who's doing What?"

Or did you just prove his point.

Tried when I was younger, but I'm too old now.

[Remiel]

If the Afghani fighters really were on top of their game, they'd probably make Mercer a higher priority than quite a few MPs one could name. I daresay he is better loved by Canadians than the vast majority of politicians. I guess we should be thankful that they aren't quite *that* informed.

[Black Dog]

Yes the mission is full of problems , but instead of pulling out ,quitting and sticking our heads back in the sand, we should be demanding from our government that solutions be found and action taken to fix them. Our government needs to take the lead and attempt to show the leadership that is required to make all this possiable, to show the rest of the world that maybe a peaceful Afganistan is possiable.

AG: if some here (such as, oh, me) are correct, it is simply not within our power to "fix" Afghanistan no matter how much dosh and lives we spend.

BS. How Do YOU know it's unwinnable? It is, in fact, winnable and we are winning. The only reason that it would be unwinnable is for the majority of people in western nations to think like you and we pull out. The afghans are firmly in favour of us and Nato being there as is shown by poll after poll. We are doing much to reconstruct the nation as is shown by the results - if you bothered to look.

A loser attitude like yours is in fact our biggest impediment to winning it. think about it.

The idea that doemstic perceptions of the war have as great or greater bearing on the outcome than the actual situation on the battlefield is absurd.

[White Doors]

The idea that doemstic perceptions of the war have as great or greater bearing on the outcome than the actual situation on the battlefield is absurd.

Spain pulled out of Iraq. Of popular opinion doesn't rally in Canada, we could too. I agree it's absurd, but it's a reality.

[Army Guy]

Blackdog;

AG: if some here (such as, oh, me) are correct, it is simply not within our power to "fix" Afghanistan no matter how much dosh and lives we spend.

"IF" can mean alot of things, can you say with 100% certainity that you are right, would we as a nation feel comfortable telling the rest of the world that "yes we tried everything in our power to bring peace to Afgan" and we have failed..more importantly do we tell the Afgan poeple "sorry we quit"

I would agree with leaving if we as a nation had done everything within our abilities, but i don't think we are there yet...

The idea that doemstic perceptions of the war have as great or greater bearing on the outcome than the actual situation on the battlefield is absurd.

Actually it does have a bearing on what happens on the battlefield, it reflects, on moral of the troops, production of war materials, other services that the military depend on in time of conflict.

That being said it would not have greater influence than the battlefield situation.

[Black Dog]

"IF" can mean alot of things, can you say with 100% certainity that you are right, would we as a nation feel comfortable telling the rest of the world that "yes we tried everything in our power to bring peace to Afgan" and we have failed..more importantly do we tell the Afgan poeple "sorry we quit"

100% certain? No. But I can say, based on the history of the place and many othe rfactors, that I'm extremely sure that any attempt to turn Afghanistan into a stable representative democracy will prove unsuccessful.

I would agree with leaving if we as a nation had done everything within our abilities, but i don't think we are there yet...

Should we figure out whether what we're trying to do is actually possible before we commit to "doing everything within our abilities?" A lost cause is a lost cause, no matter how admirable our intentions.

Spain pulled out of Iraq. Of popular opinion doesn't rally in Canada, we could too. I agree it's absurd, but it's a reality.

I never discounted domestic considerations altogether. But you said (emphasis mine):

The only reason that it would be unwinnable is for the majority of people in western nations to think like you and we pull out.

Which implies that every single other obstacle (such as the Taliban, for example) is easy to overcome. Which raises the question: if Afghanistan is such a cakewalk that public opinion is the only thing standing between us and victory, why is public opinion lining up against the war?

BTW: has it occurred to anybody that Canada's citizens are under no obligation to support the war?

[Army Guy]

Blackdog:

100% certain? No. But I can say, based on the history of the place and many othe rfactors, that I'm extremely sure that any attempt to turn Afghanistan into a stable representative democracy will prove unsuccessful

Sorry, basing anything on history does'nt work for me, How many times has Germany invaded France over the course of history...Should we put troops back into germany, France, spain, even Britian all have past histories of world conquest.

Should we figure out whether what we're trying to do is actually possible before we commit to "doing everything within our abilities?" A lost cause is a lost cause, no matter how admirable our intentions.

As a soldier i pray that our government does it's home work before mobilizing it's military. Which i can not say for sure "again" i pray that they the Liberals had done a risk assesment and found it favourable, i hate to think that my comrads died to gain a few polictical pionts. I assume and pray that the present government has also done a threat acessment also...

But there is alot riding on a favourable solution to the Afgan problem, not only for NATO as a organization but also our place in any future defense agreements something we have taken for granted. And until the main players throw in the towel we are stuck with honouring our commitments.

[Canadian Blue]

One wonders how many of the " rah rah let's go to war guys" actually try to enlist to fight the good fight?

Not many I assume as it is easier to cheerlead than play the game....( Bush is a helluva good example of that)

I'm currently enlisted, and support what were doing in Afghanistan.

I think that we as a nation should do what's within our capabilities, however we can't go on forever. If no improvement is made, and we can't contribute anymore then we will have to pull out. I'm waiting to see what happen's in the next year before saying whether the mission will be successful or a failure.