Palestinians vs. Tibetans

[Canadian Blue]

Canadian Blue, you trot out some tired, simplistic statements;

As compared to calling Palestinians modern day Nazis?

The above question is and let me say it clearly idiotic not just absurd. Your question infers if more Palestinians have died then Israelis then the deaths of Palestinians has superior moral meaning to the deaths of Israelis. That is bull-shit. You insult the deaths of both Palestinians and Israels when you do this. The point is, one death on either side is too many. The point is ANY death is unacceptable. The point is your taking deaths and using them like goals in a hockey game exploits the real issue, that innocent people have died and no yoru turning this into a pissing match with my deaths are bigger then your deaths is not the way any moral, decent, logical, rational human being looks at a conflict. All your question does is indicate the obvious-that you seek to exploit this conflict to incite and present one side as suffering more then the other. Each suffer equally.

Have you paid any attention to the poster I responded too and how he believes Palestinians should be treated. Perhaps the point was lost on you as the poster said that the Palestinians deserve anything that comes their way due to the actions of the Mufti. So please explain to me how building a huge wall, and occasionally bombing the Palestinians resulting in a large proportion of collateral damage is productive?

Also get this straight. In a country with a small population. When a person dies, it has a different impact then in a country with a huge population. In your nonsensical inference that number of deaths alone is a way to understand impact on a society you reflect an absolut ignorance as to the impact a death has on either Palestinian or Israeli societies.

Which is why I believe in negotiation instead of bombing the shit out of the Palestinians. As long as both sides continue those actions their will never be peace in the middle east. However it seems you have already absolved one side of all guilt.

Again you trot out an unoriginal and nonsensical phrase. To start with Nelson Mandela did not consecrate a constitution calling for the systemic extermination of all caucasians in South Africa.

My point was about how frivilously the term terrorist is used. So were you against negotiations with the PLO as well?

You again select massacres to match your political agenda like dishes at a buffet at some restaurant. I will take this massacre and this one, but not this one. When someone chooses dish a, I will counter with dish b.

Which those on the right conveniently do. I'm simply showing that atrocities have happened on the other side.

You can spin this any way you want but it comes down to this. True freedom fighters would denounce terror. They would work openly with Israel and Jordan in creating a second Palestinian state for Muslims and form an economic common market.

Perhaps, however groups turn violent once terror is used by the state. Ex. Sharpeville Massacre

The fact is the Israelis have tried repeatedly to disengage from the West Bank and Gaza and encourage a second Palestinian nation there and every time they do, every time they withdraw, one of over 300 terror cells uses that opportunity to attack it.

By electing Arial Sharon?

You want to talk statistics and suffering-I say bullshit. Blood is red no matter who dies. What this comes down to is terror. Disengage terror, and people will find solutions. Allow terror to prevail and have people like you try sugar coat it and rationalize it, and we have conflict.

Depends on what nationality. You can talk about terror all you want yet refuse to recognize the Sabra and Shatila massacre, which coincidentally happened in an Israeli controlled area while ArialSharon was Defence Minister. So you talk about how blood is blood, yet you absolve one side of any crimes. I recognize that Israel is not 100% innocent, and the same goes with Palestine. You talk about sugar coating, and then state that Israel is somehow completely innocent, as is the United States with regards to the middle east.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2255902.stm

Then come back and lecture me about freedom.

Odd you didn't use the same rambling for a seperate poster who obviously views the deaths of Palestinians as lesser than those of Israelis.

Now where did I say we should drop a bomb on them? But no...we shouldn't 'negotiate' with terrorist states.

So your solution is do nothing.

Israel blows up buses with suicide bombers? Can you post a link? Perhaps a link to the rocket attacks, too. While your at it, can you point out where Israel kidnaps actual soldiers manning their posts?

You mean the bombardment and rocket attacks in Palestine don't come from Israel.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. My only regret about the Iran Iraq war is that they didn't wipe each other right out. As far as weapons, the Iraqis used Soviet weapons while Iranians were using a mixture of what the Shah had bought over the years from France, Britain, USA etc.

This is why right wing ideology is so bankrupt. It doesn't matter how many millions get killed because the ends always justify the means.

Hey, Socrates...what's the sound of one hand clapping?

You still can't figure out what the appropriate punishment for Palestinians is?

Edited October 19, 2007 by Canadian Blue

[DogOnPorch]

We did this once before and got nowhere. (Combined Bomber Offensive ring a bell?) You have your opinion and I have mine and never the two shall meet.

You still can't figure out what the appropriate punishment for Palestinians is?

I think they are their own punishment. But, I won't play the Socratic Method game with you...sorry. You're free to lay the blame where you wish.

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The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.

---Plato

[Canadian Blue]

Yes, you said the bombing of civilians was what won the war, even though historians disagree.

I think they are their own punishment. But, I won't play the Socratic Method game with you...sorry. You're free to lay the blame where you wish.

So, it shows that you can't figure out an appropriate punishment.

[M.Dancer]

Yes, you said the bombing of civilians was what won the war, even though historians disagree.

So, it shows that you can't figure out an appropriate punishment.

Some disagree....if anything it wasn't that the bombing was wrong....it's just that the objectives changed too often. Speer said exactly this in his history book.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, you said the bombing of civilians was what won the war, even though historians disagree.

Here we go again...I said no such thing. You were proven wrong by several people including myself re: Luftwaffe assets/the Eastern Front/the Combined Bomber Offensive. Remember? No? I'm sure both ScottSA and BC2004 remember.

So, it shows that you can't figure out an appropriate punishment.

I stand by my statement: "They are their own punishment." ...and their spanking isn't over with yet...

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Writers take words seriously-perhaps the last professional class that does-and they struggle to steer their own through the crosswinds of meddling editors and careless typesetters and obtuse and malevolent reviewers into the lap of the ideal reader.

---John Updike

Edited October 19, 2007 by DogOnPorch

[Canadian Blue]

Here we go again...I said no such thing. You were proven wrong by several people including myself re: Luftwaffe assets/the Eastern Front/the Combined Bomber Offensive. Remember? No? I'm sure both ScottSA and BC2004 remember.

Well, ScottSA is always a strong supporter of humanity. I'm glad to see that you are a strong member of the ScottSA, MikeDavid, Leafless, brigade.

I stand by my statement: "They are their own punishment." ...and their spanking isn't over with yet...

So how many more people do you think should be killed exactly?

Edited October 19, 2007 by Canadian Blue

[DogOnPorch]

So how many more people do you think should be killed exactly?

Entirely up to them....Socrates.

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Whoever thinks of stopping the uprising before it achieves its goals, I will give him ten bullets in the chest.

---Yasser Arafat

[Black Dog]

This thread's a shit show, but I couldn't let this pass without comemnt.

Then there's Egypt's and Syria's post war habit of hiding Nazis and giving them cushy jobs.

Hmmm.... See also: Operation Paperclip.

[DogOnPorch]

was more a fellow trapped in a world he never made than a dyed in the wool Nazi. The Nazi's really gave him no choice. If he wanted to continue work on rockets, he had to do it as part of the German military. However, Nasser offered top SS men advisory jobs in the Egyptian government. Otto Skorzeny being perhaps the most notorious other than the Grand Mufti himself.

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I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.

---Wernher von Braun

[Rue]

Just as said earlier - when you don't like the facts - make your own.

No when I do not like the way you mistate facts I counter them. You sir do not have a monopoly on telling us what the facts are. Now move on before I apppoint you the Grand Poopbah of the Order of Water Buffalo. Do you really want such responsibility for humanity?

[Canadian Blue]

Black Dog, you don't understand. It's alright as long as we do it, it only becomes wrong when someone else does it.

[Rue]

In response to Canadian Blue;

"As compared to calling Palestinians modern day Nazis?"

I have never once referred to Palestinians as modern day Nazis. Palestinians are people. If your point is Palestinians are human beings and should not be negatively characterized because terrorists use their name I agree with you.

"Have you paid any attention to the poster I responded too and how he believes Palestinians should be treated. Perhaps the point was lost on you as the poster said that the Palestinians deserve anything that comes their way due to the actions of the Mufti. "

I have to made it very clear in all my posts that I do not believe Palestinians or Israelis "deserve" to suffer.

"So please explain to me how building a huge wall, and occasionally bombing the Palestinians resulting in a large proportion of collateral damage is productive?"

If the wall prevents terrorists from coming in and killing people that is its purpose. Any killing of an innocent Palestinian can never be productive, only tragic. Is it an inevitable consequence of fighting terrorists-at this point I honestly say to you without trying to say its acceptable-I truly believe the IDF does not do it deliberately but as a necessary consequence of having the moral responsibility to defend its people from terror. Can they do a better job? Yes. Should any innocent Palestinians die, no, no and no just like no Israeli should have to die.

Again I say to you, if we could find a way to disarm the terrorists, the IDF becomes a moot point.

"Which is why I believe in negotiation instead of bombing the shit out of the Palestinians. "

Please I implore you, do just a bit more reading. You are mixing up some concepts. Was the aerial war in Lebanon the best way to deal with Hezbollah, no. But you are mixing that up with what is happening in Gaza right now. In fact each day there are a minimum of 33 missiles or more shot into Israel. To Canadian readers this seems like nothing because they do not live with missiles coming in to their feet daily. May I remind you what Canada did during the alleged FLQ crisis with an alleged bomb in a mail-box. Canada invoked a War Measures Act. In fact they suspended far more legal rights of their citizens then what Israel does today.

Is it right the IDF shoots back? If I shot missiles at you today, do you think you would not go running to the police? They have to do something. They have a moral responsibility to defend their people. If they stayed silent it would only get worse. The fact is if the IDF did not use restraint far more Palestinians would be dead. To understand that you need to go there and see the tiny size between where the Palestinian missiles are shot from to where they are sent and where the populations are on both sides of the border.

Israel does not bomb the shit out of the Gaza. It uses low flying helicopters with missile strikes based on sattellite photoes on specific targets or it has its people go undercover and place remote control devices in specific places. Innocent people are dying yes. They die because Hamas has a deliberate tactic of shooting its missiles from homes, hospitals, community centres, schools, then asking children to bring back the rocket launchers after they flee. Hamas deliberately places civilians in harms way so that they get shot and killed when Israel responds. Its a deliberate tactic to use its peoples' deaths to incite and inflame people such as yourself. Is it right Israel kills Palestinians caught in the fire? You mix up "right" a moral concept with unfortunate. Of course Israel has a right to defend itself from extinction. Is it unfortunate, yes. Is it tragic, yes. Is it horrible, yes. Again all I can say is if these terrorists who use their children as fodder can be disarmed, there is no need for the IDF to shoot back.

"As long as both sides continue those actions their will never be peace in the middle east. "

Yes all conflicts are tit for tat and the key to resolving them is seperating the parties. Everytime Israel has disengaged and withdrawn Hamas has escalated. Find away to neutralize the terror cells and the IDF will withdraw and become a moot point. Good luck doing that.

"However it seems you have already absolved one side of all guilt."

No not at all. See I know Israeli soldiers. I can't absolve their guilt. I can't speak for them or Israelis. All I can say is many are burdened with a guilt you can not understand but I feel they have no reason to feel guilty about wanting to live and fighting for survival. You mistake my feeling that Israelis have a right to exist and live without terrorists constantly attacking them with absolving them of guilt. I can't do that. I sound like an arrogant jackass but don't mistake my passion with humility underneath all the words. I can only speak for myself. If you read what I write, you would know I feel much regret as to what I have seen there byt my sentiments mean sweet fuck all.

What these two conflicted and victimized parties need is not someone to morally judge them but help them find ways to heal. Guilt is something that comes with being exposed to trauma. To help someone heal you can't help them let go of their guilt until you help them survive their trauma which they relive over and over. The last thing they need are people like us judging them whether they be Palestinian or Israeli. No don't mistake my existential concept of what the Israelis are struggling with as absolving anything. For generations to come both Palestinians and Israelis will have to live with themselves but what I do know is its not up to me to judge them.

I save my wrath and judgement for terrorists.

"My point was about how frivilously the term terrorist is used."

I think the word terrrorist has been misused by people who do not understand what terrorists are. My point is terrorists are not romantic figures. This is not Lawrence of Arabia. Nelson Mandela who you mentioned did not condone at any time the use of terror or violence and he did not hate white people and preach for them to be exterminated. Please don't suggest Hamas has anything in common with him. If you want I can give you names of Palestinians involved in the peace movement who if you want to use the word freedom fighter are far more deserving of it and no they will not engage in terror or violence. I know Israelis just like that as well. Those are the people I choose to think about as role models.

"So were you against negotiations with the PLO as well?"

Do you think anything I have written remotely would suggest that? All I would say is this. Its not realistic for you to think someone will sit down with someone who will not renounce their belief they want the other side exterminated. Until the side that makes it clear it believes in extermination renounces such a conviction only a fool would sit across from them. What's to negtoiate-how many days it will take them to exterminate you?

Also may I please ask you read what Arafat did before, during and after the Oslo accord negotiations. Please read what Bill Clinton and Ehud Barak wrote. Then go read Arafat's own words. What emerges is a story of a man (Arafat) who negotiated in bad faith and never intended to achieve peace with Israel and all along wanted to take all of Israel and Jordan.

"Which those on the right conveniently do."

I think what you might be seeing some times is what I am saying-people who feel sitting across from terrorists who will not renounce certain beliefs is impossible. Its no different say then the IRA who before they sat down for peace talks were asked to renounce on-going terror activities an disarm. Do some people classify all Arabs or Muslims as bad people-probably. No I embrace and talk to any human who believes in peaceful negotiation no matter how hopeless it may seem.

"I'm simply showing that atrocities have happened on the other side."

Be my guest. If I think they are imbalanced I will debate them. I confess I ramble. Its fun. I love to ramble.

"Perhaps, however groups turn violent once terror is used by the state. Ex. Sharpeville Massacre

by electing Arial Sharon?"

If you in fact take the time to see what, who and why Sharon did what he did you will see not just a fat, violent man, but someone who was stuck picking up the pieces at a time when Ehud Barak gambled and put the very existence of Israel on the line only to have Arafat ridicule him and say to him right to his face-"I was joking I don't want peace...this was just a game..".

Israel was left with Arafat admitting all his negotiations to that point were done in bad faith. Then as Arafat's power crumbled due to his aids and dementia, Hamas and other groups came to the forefront.

You want to portray Sharon as an ogre, be my guest. His warts are there. Yithak Rabin he was not. Was he an angel? No. However the simplistic analysis of this man as a brute and pig is I would suggest not entirely true there are sides of this man you do not see and he will never want you to see that would suggest otherwise for if you were to see that side of him, then that would mean so could Hamas and that would then have been interprated as weakness and invite death.

In regards to Arafat, I see him for what he is-someone who ran a drug cartel, then used the cover and pretense of the PLO to consolidate his power and become nothing more then a drug lord who used the PLO as a cover. I see him as a criminal and a charlatan. There are many others in the PLO I would prefer to concentrate on because I know people in the Fatah moderate faction who would never agree to violence and who I know one day will find peace.

Did Sharon make a mistake allowing the SLA to get into a Palestinian Refugee camp and engage in a massacre of refugees, yes but the suggestion it was deliberate and premeditated on his part has emerged as not being exactly what happened-what we now see emerging is a man who genuinely did not know what to do, not someone who sat there and said, go kill them but someone faced with the belief that he genuinely could not get involved. Was it wrong, yes. Many things Israeli politicians have done have been wrong and will continue to be wrong. They are human. The difference between them and terrorists though, is they do not set out to engage in violence and terror to express themselves. The differences between a conventional soldier and a terrorist are best left for another post.

" So you talk about how blood is blood, yet you absolve one side of any crimes."

I never have. As I said blood is blood.

"I recognize that Israel is not 100% innocent, and the same goes with Palestine. "

No one said Israeli policies have not been defective. What I am saying is please differentiate between specific policies you criticize and I humbly suggest you don't let them fuel you into seeing bad guys and good guys. To me this is a simple matter-what happens when terrorism can not be disengaged.

"You talk about sugar coating, and then state that Israel is somehow completely innocent, as is the United States with regards to the middle east. "

No I have never stated Israel or the US are completely innocent.

"Odd you didn't use the same rambling for a seperate poster who obviously views the deaths of Palestinians as lesser than those of Israelis. "

I have already chastized many on this forum for doing the above. I responded specifically to you not the other poster.

"So your solution is do nothing."

No that is not what I have said. What I have said is the key is to disengage the terrorists so that both sides can negotiate. That is possible.

"You mean the bombardment and rocket attacks in Palestine don't come from Israel. "

The rocket attacks on civilians come from Hamas and Islamic Jihad in the Gaza at Israeli civilians. Israel does not bomb or rocket attack Palestinian civilians delibertaley and premeditadely as does these terror cells. Its responses are specific not sporadic and certainly not daily and indiscriminate as is the case of Hamas.

"This is why right wing ideology is so bankrupt. It doesn't matter how many millions get killed because the ends always justify the means. "

You make sweeping generalizations based on your own subjective concept of what you think right wingers believe. May I suggest classifying people as right or left then assigning tem subjective characteristics you assume might not be accurate.

"You still can't figure out what the appropriate punishment for Palestinians is?"

Why would I want to punish Palestinians? What I want is for someone to disarm terrorists and make them go away so that both Palestinians and Israelis can live in peace.

Edited October 19, 2007 by Rue

[Black Dog]

Von Braun was more a fellow trapped in a world he never made than a dyed in the wool Nazi. The Nazi's really gave him no choice. If he wanted to continue work on rockets, he had to do it as part of the German military. However, Nasser offered top SS men advisory jobs in the Egyptian government. Otto Skorzeny being perhaps the most notorious other than the Grand Mufti himself.

Fine about ol' Verner. But what about chaps like Arthur Rudolph or Hubertus Strughold? Interesting too that you mention Skorzeny, given his work with Mossad. You can't tell me that there weren't at least a few bona fide Nazis who were given "cushy jobs" in the post-war west as a result of their scientific knowledge or value as anti-communist operatives.

[myata]

Really, there's no need to write long posts anymore, all these arguments were presented earlier and can be classified into easy numerical indexes:

#1: it did not happen;

#2: i had the historic right to do it (while he didn't)

#3: i did it because somebody else did it to somebody else

#4: i ignore anything that happened before this point of time

#5: let's talk about this instead

#6: i can't hear you

Now, instead of spending long minutes typing long sentences, all one has to do is a few clicks resulting in nice and elegant argument like:

- #1, please (please is optional)

- #2 and #3

- #4, #4, #4!

- #5, sorry

[Rue]

Fine about ol' Verner. But what about chaps like Arthur Rudolph or Hubertus Strughold? Interesting too that you mention Skorzeny, given his work with Mossad. You can't tell me that there weren't at least a few bona fide Nazis who were given "cushy jobs" in the post-war west as a result of their scientific knowledge or value as anti-communist operatives.

Of course. What does that have to do with Israel? Are the Israelis also responsible for the Japanese war criminals the US took in?

I think the point here is, that Syria and Egypt took in many Nazis and the Nazis were out in the open running the Syrian army and mukbarat for many years. Nazis played a prominent role with many Palestinian terror cells and groups. The kind of anti-semitism we see in the Middle East today was deliberately cultivated and spread by the Nazis in the Middle East.

I think its a stretch suggesting since the US took in German or Japanese monsters after World War Two makes it acceptable for Syria to have done the same with Nazis.

Not only do 2 wrongs not make a right but it doesn't change the basic nature that its wrong whoever does it.

I hate these arguements that say, its not so bad, everyone does it...know why? Because when I hear such arguements they never ever are used in reference to Israel. The lax standards never do seem apply to Israel, just everyone and anyone but Israel.

For example, if anyone else tries to defend themselves and seek existence, we find that acceptable, when Israel does it....hmmmmm.

I know you disagree but I think the double standard for criticizing Israel flows from a thousands of year old concept that Jews should not be self-determined because Jews as a people are undesireable and the last thing we want from undesireables is their self-determination.

Ironically Palestinians found themselves placed in the exact same position. You no doubt like to blame Israel for it. I prefer of course to trace it back to its two creators, the Arab League who had a choice to create a second Palestinian state for Palestinians but instead used them as fodder and when they lost their war, deliberately caged them as political pawns to display to the world thinking it would get them back what they thought belonged to them.

This all comes down to one thing-the Arab League's refusal to allow Israelis less then 1% of the Middle East to live in and forcing the situation we have today.

It to me is remarkable how in this equation the person who started and lost the war causing this mess is now conveniently ignored and one of the two victims of their idiocy is portrayed as a villain because it struggles to exist in the face of constant terror.

I say it again, the Arab League created this mess, and its time the Arab League did more then sit silent as it always does, and sit down with Israel and make a concerted effort to disarm terrorists in its nations. Its time the Arab League attone for its decision to cage Palestinians and use them as pawns.

Edited October 19, 2007 by Rue

[Black Dog]

I think the point here is, that Syria and Egypt took in many Nazis and the Nazis were out in the open running the Syrian army and mukbarat for many years. Nazis played a prominent role with many Palestinian terror cells and groups. The kind of anti-semitism we see in the Middle East today was deliberately cultivated and spread by the Nazis in the Middle East.

I think its a stretch suggesting since the US took in German or Japanese monsters after World War Two makes it acceptable for Syria to have done the same with Nazis.

I didn't suggest it was acceptable, only that Syria et al were not alone in doing so. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Canadian Blue]

I think the point here is, that Syria and Egypt took in many Nazis and the Nazis were out in the open running the Syrian army and mukbarat for many years. Nazis played a prominent role with many Palestinian terror cells and groups. The kind of anti-semitism we see in the Middle East today was deliberately cultivated and spread by the Nazis in the Middle East.

I think its a stretch suggesting since the US took in German or Japanese monsters after World War Two makes it acceptable for Syria to have done the same with Nazis.

Not only do 2 wrongs not make a right but it doesn't change the basic nature that its wrong whoever does it.

No doubt...

I have never once referred to Palestinians as modern day Nazis. Palestinians are people. If your point is Palestinians are human beings and should not be negatively characterized because terrorists use their name I agree with you.

Once again you fail to understand who I was responding to, look at DogonPorch's posts for a couple of pages. His whole argument is based on the Grand Mufti.

If you in fact take the time to see what, who and why Sharon did what he did you will see not just a fat, violent man, but someone who was stuck picking up the pieces at a time when Ehud Barak gambled and put the very existence of Israel on the line only to have Arafat ridicule him and say to him right to his face-"I was joking I don't want peace...this was just a game..".

By being either completely negligent or even allowing the massacre of Palestinians in a refugee camp.

[DogOnPorch]

Once again you fail to understand who I was responding to, look at DogonPorch's posts for a couple of pages. His whole argument is based on the Grand Mufti.

Yup...I perhaps am a bit closer to the whole thing than you, as well. But that's just my guess. I had a family member who served both in the 13th SS and the 369th Croat. His views/comments on the Grand Mufti's actions have indeed tainted my view of the "Palestinians". Now, this doesn't mean I want to drop bombs on them or support Israel 100% or love George Bush. The man was EVIL and he escaped and went on to poison the entire Middle-East with his ideology. We live with it today. You can claim otherwise...I won't believe you. If the 'Palestinians' would clean-house...maybe I'd support them more. But now we have things like Hamas...and Hezbollah on the rise. The house is getting dirtier...not cleaner. They give us the Nazi salute...no matter what Canadian Blue would have us think.

Rue: Well said.

Black Dog: I agree that ALL old Nazis should be brought to justice. Including rocket scientists. Hunt them down if we have to.

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The Road to Stars is Open.

---Sergei Korolev

[myata]

Oh yeah, how could I miss the classic,

#7 i had to do it because he is (infernally) bad

[Canadian Blue]

Yup...I perhaps am a bit closer to the whole thing than you, as well. But that's just my guess. I had a family member who served both in the 13th SS and the 369th Croat. His views/comments on the Grand Mufti's actions have indeed tainted my view of the "Palestinians".

I also had a family member who single handedly killed Adolf Hitler and 500 Germans. I can make all sorts of claims on here.

Now, this doesn't mean I want to drop bombs on them or support Israel 100% or love George Bush.

You just think Palestinian's need to be "spanked", which can mean a number of things, one of which may be a massive napalm attack, mushroom cloud, who knows.

The man was EVIL and he escaped and went on to poison the entire Middle-East with his ideology. We live with it today. You can claim otherwise...I won't believe you.

I don't support him, I think that your comparisons between Palestine in 2007 and the Nazis in the 1940's is absurd. However I don't think you should be lecturing anyone here on what evil is when you fantasize about the Iran-Iraq war wiping out the majority of the population in both Iran and Iraq. This is what I love about the right, they always talk about fighting evil, and then start talking about the regret that death counts in previous wars weren't much higher.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. My only regret about the Iran Iraq war is that they didn't wipe each other right out. As far as weapons, the Iraqis used Soviet weapons while Iranians were using a mixture of what the Shah had bought over the years from France, Britain, USA etc.

Edited October 19, 2007 by Canadian Blue

[Higgly]

Just as said earlier - when you don't like the facts - make your own.

You'll note that Rue never cites a source.

[ScottSA]

Well, perhaps the entire region should open floodgate immigration and swamp the area with people from third world shitholes? Multicult is the answer to everything, right?

[Higgly]

This debate about the Grand Mufti and his Nazi sympathies is a howl. How many divisions did the Nazis send to Palestine? You can see how important it was to them and how big a role the Grand Mufti played. He probably would have thrown his lot in with Santa Claus if he thought it would help the cause of the Palestinian Arabs against what he saw coming like a freight train thanks to the British, who Rue so loves to malign in spite of what they did for Israel. Rue, you should be falling down on your knees and kissing the Union Jack.

Joseph Kennedy Sr. was sympathetic to the Nazis, yet his son became president and his family founded an American political dynasty. IBM and Coca Cola did business with the Nazis (look up the origin of 'Fanta'); hasn't hurt them.

As for DogOnPorch's usual drool, read Tony Judt's "Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945" if you want to know how long it took for Europe to come to terms with its complicity in the Holocaust. It wasn't just a matter of shaving the heads of a few collaborators. You are badly misinformed on the subject.

Edited October 19, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

Well, perhaps the entire region should open floodgate immigration and swamp the area with people from third world shitholes? Multicult is the answer to everything, right?

The emphasis is mine, but I thought it was funny.

[Higgly]

I also had a family member who single handedly killed Adolf Hitler and 500 Germans. I can make all sorts of claims on here.

I love it.