Higgly Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 Avi Shlaim? One of the 'New Historians'...read: Revisionists. He and the Norman Finkelstein's of the planet need a good long tour of Auschwitz. Even they would be ashes on the floor of the fire pit. No exceptions...even for those Jews who thought they were friends of the Nazis. Sonderkommandos of modern times.What is your opinion of the Grand Mufti and his nephew? Hamas? Hezbollah? Trapped in a World they never made? I spit on them all. Just in case you couldn't tell. Congratulations on using Google. The Revionist historians are now considered to be the ones who have the straight goods after years of Israeli government propaganda. Oh my. A holocaust reference. What a surprise. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
Higgly Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 Here's a classic example of it, now. Well done...and thanks for illustrating my point so well.------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no longer a way out of our present situation except by forging a road toward our objective, violently and by force, over a sea of blood and under a horizon blazing with fire. ---Gamal Abdel Nasser...just before the 6 Day War. And the "here" refers to? Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
Higgly Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 Bah...muslims have free speech in the west.... And your point? Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
DogOnPorch Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 No doubt this will happen right after Shamir is sent to prison for bombing the King David Hotel. So you are in favor of those behind Holocaust being given a 'walk'? Why is this? Because the Irgun and Stern gangs (tiny Jewish terrorist groups...long since defunct) blew up a Hotel in Bevingrad full of British officers well after the Holocaust occured? Interesting. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't. ---Margaret Thatcher Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
M.Dancer Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 And your point? Funny how some people can get away with posting links to racist web sites.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Higgly Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 I clicked the Reply button on your post, M.Dancer, and it comes up empty. I guess you've said nothing. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
DogOnPorch Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 Oh my. A holocaust reference. What a surprise. As my family lived it on both sides of the fence it shouldn't be any surprise at all. ---------------------------------------------------------- Any alliance whose purpose is not the intention to wage war is senseless and useless. ---Adolf Hitler Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Higgly Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 As my family lived it on both sides of the fence it shouldn't be any surprise at all. Very interesting. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
Canadian Blue Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 No, there shouldn't be a Palestinian state because they chose war in 1948 and lost. You can't have things both ways...at least in my opinion. Too bad...but they lost. L-O-S-T. As did the Germans, Italians, and the Japanese. One cannot destory an entire nation state and not expect future violence down the road. The Arabs never paid for their war crimes. How many Palestinian civilians have been killed since 1948 as compared to Israel? His nephew went on to commit acts of terrorism, then got a Nobel prize for doing so. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Many considered Nelson Mandela a terrorist as well, while at the same time completely ignoring apartheid and the other devestating actions committed by the South African government. To support the "Palestinian cause" is to support the very thing we as Canadians went to war to fight back in 1939. That's quite the stretch, so should we ignore the massacre of Palestinians by Christian falangists whom were allowed to do so with ease. Quote "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" - GOP activist
Higgly Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 So you are in favor of those behind Holocaust being given a 'walk'? Why is this? Because the Irgun and Stern gangs (tiny Jewish terrorist groups...long since defunct) blew up a Hotel in Bevingrad full of British officers well after the Holocaust occured? Interesting. The Palestinians are reponsible for the Holocaust? Or is it the Tibetans you are referring to? What planet are you living on? Yeah right Irgun and the Hagganah are defunct. They turned into the IDF for Christ's sakes. Bevingrad? O brother. That hotel also housed a Scandanavian peace envoy who had come to negotiate a peace between the two sides. By your reasoning, anybody can blow up a bus saying, "Well we thought there were soldiers on board." and get away with it. What a pathetic response. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
Canadian Blue Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 (edited) So you are in favor of those behind Holocaust being given a 'walk'? Why is this? Because the Irgun and Stern gangs (tiny Jewish terrorist groups...long since defunct) blew up a Hotel in Bevingrad full of British officers well after the Holocaust occured? Interesting. That's not the Palestinians, that was the Germans and Nazi sympathizers from all over Europe. However could you tell us how you would reap punishment on people who have been living in constant poverty in 2007? Edited October 17, 2007 by Canadian Blue Quote "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" - GOP activist
DogOnPorch Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 That's not the Palestinians, that was the Germans and Nazi sympathizers from all over Europe. The 13th Waffen-Gebrigs-Division der SS "Handschar", 369th Croat-SS Division, 372nd Croat-SS Division, plus a few smaller units were made up of Arabs and Bosnians...all Muslim at any rate with German officers. The Walloon and the Norland tended to handle the non-Muslims. But the main point is that the leader of the Arab world at the time (and well after the war as a heroic figure) raised these divisions...commanded them...and used them to further the Holocaust. He NEVER faced war crimes and went on to spread his poison post-WW2. It was he who called for war in 1948. Here he is with his hunting buddy... The Jews of the area also formed their own unit...but they had the good sense to fight for the Allies...with battle honors...in the Italian campaign. You guys just keep telling yourselves that they are OK, now...these 'Palestinians'. Meanwhile, can anyone tell me why they still use the Nazi salute? Quaint tradition? Right... As did the Germans, Italians, and the Japanese. One cannot destory an entire nation state and not expect future violence down the road. The Allies flattened all three like pancakes...they seem to be OK now. By your reasoning, anybody can blow up a bus saying, "Well we thought there were soldiers on board." and get away with it. Who blows up buses these days? Were there soldiers on board? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A leopard never changes his spots. ---Traditional Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Peter F Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 Hi Peter,MacArthur didn't start the war...but his counterattack at Inchon did save South Korea's hide. Sure he went off the deep end at the Yalu, but worse things could have happened...but didn't. The Red Chinese learned (perhaps) not to charge Canadian machinegun nests and we all learned to bring more bullets next time. Yeah, that MacArthur. JBG blames 'but didn't' on the lefty Mao-lovers. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Canadian Blue Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 (edited) The 13th Waffen-Gebrigs-Division der SS "Handschar", 369th Croat-SS Division, 372nd Croat-SS Division, plus a few smaller units were made up of Arabs and Bosnians...all Muslim at any rate with German officers. The Walloon and the Norland tended to handle the non-Muslims. But the main point is that the leader of the Arab world at the time (and well after the war as a heroic figure) raised these divisions...commanded them...and used them to further the Holocaust. He NEVER faced war crimes and went on to spread his poison post-WW2. It was he who called for war in 1948. How many Waffen SS divisions did the Germans make with members from Norway, Holland, Belguim, France, Poland, etc. So who do you suppose we should punish today for what the Mufta did in the 1940's? Because apparently getting massacred, being forced to live in refugee camps, and living in absolute poverty, isn't punishment enough. The Allies flattened all three like pancakes...they seem to be OK now. They all seem to have their own government as well, which was the point I was making. We didn't force all of the Germans out of the country and turn it into the 51st state. Not to mention the fact that we took an active part in rebuilding those countries to help bring about stable democracies. Edited October 18, 2007 by Canadian Blue Quote "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" - GOP activist
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 The Quislings of Norway, France Holland...etc.....were dealt with, with extreme prejudice. That horrible same is behind them. The same can't be said for the Arabs and Palestininans today. http://www.jtf.org/israel/ccc.05092006.isr...alute.small.jpg http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives...ah%20salute.jpg Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
DogOnPorch Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 How many Waffen SS divisions did the Germans make with members from Norway, Holland, Belguim, France, Poland, etc. Several...as mentioned the SS Walloon and Nordland, etc. But their COs didn't go on to spread Nazi-ism after the war. Nor did their COs get the buddy-buddy treatment from Himmler and Hitler. The Grand Mufti loved the Nazis and they loved him. Again...any idea why the Palestinian Arabs use the Nazi salute and the goose-step march? They have the Hitler Youth part down, I notice. I just thought since a few of you are such experts on this on this that you'd know some 'non-Nazi' reason for the salute...any ideas? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ---Plato Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Canadian Blue Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 Again...any idea why the Palestinian Arabs use the Nazi salute and the goose-step march? They have the Hitler Youth part down, I notice. You mean the bellamy salute? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute They have the Hitler Youth part down, I notice. How many nations have used child soldiers in conflicts? I just thought since a few of you are such experts on this on this that you'd know some 'non-Nazi' reason for the salute...any ideas? Apparently you're the resident expert here, especially since the Palestinian state is so similar to the Nazis in terms of military and economic power. Once again, can you tell us how we should punish the Palestinians for what the Grand Mufti did? However since your argument is based on pictures, I guess I'll post one which can give you a little bit of a boost. http://www.vandenbergforcongress.com/image...feldHussein.jpg Quote "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" - GOP activist
myata Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 Well, there's been no argument so far that would in any way prove that events preceding the creation of Israel (i.e. "the taking of land") had any legitimacy. It's hard to argue indeed without going on all kind of tangents, blame or evasion tactics simply because the facts speak for themselves. The conflict will cost enourmously and will last for generations - unless, someone will come up with a courage to admit the wrong and make amends. Then, strike a fair deal. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
DogOnPorch Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 The former Sec of Defence didn't go on to command an Iraqi division. Nice try on the salute. But the Mufti has a direct Nazi connection...there's little you can do to change that. How many nations have used child soldiers in conflicts? Just the worst nations/states. --------------------------------------------------------------- Any movement in history which attempts to perpetuate itself, becomes reactionary. ---Josip Broz Tito Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 Once again, can you tell us how we should punish the Palestinians for what the Grand Mufti did? By not giving into their terrorism. I want land...so I lob a rocket...blow up a bus...kidnap a soldier. I should be surprised when I get a negative reaction? Seems so... ------------------------------------------------- Remember upon the conduct of each depends the fate of all. ---Alexander III Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Rue Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 Well, there's been no argument so far that would in any way prove that events preceding the creation of Israel (i.e. "the taking of land") had any legitimacy. "There's(sic) been bo arguements so far...." Thanks. I am glad you can take history and simplify it into such simple, subjective opinions then pronouce them upon us as the absolute and only version of truth. Quote
Canadian Blue Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 Just the worst nations/states. So should we immediately displace everyone from said nations from their homes and send them to refugee camps? Nice try on the salute. But the Mufti has a direct Nazi connection...there's little you can do to change that. This reminds me so much of the left attempting to call Bush a Nazi because of his grandfathers connections to the regime. Your entire argument is based on the idea that since one man was a terrible man we should thus support any action Israel takes part in. By not giving into their terrorism. So we should thus refuse to have negotiations with any group of people who are considered marginalized due to actions of some members that are considered "terrorist". You'll never solve the problem, and it continues to amaze me how people believe that we can solve the problem we face by simply dropping a bomb on people. I want land...so I lob a rocket...blow up a bus...kidnap a soldier. Which is oddly enough was what Isreal has done as well. The former Sec of Defence didn't go on to command an Iraqi division. No he simply supported a brutal regime in its war against Iran. Quote "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" - GOP activist
Rue Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 Canadian Blue, you trot out some tired, simplistic statements; "How many Palestinian civilians have been killed since 1948 as compared to Israel?" The above question is and let me say it clearly idiotic not just absurd. Your question infers if more Palestinians have died then Israelis then the deaths of Palestinians has superior moral meaning to the deaths of Israelis. That is bull-shit. You insult the deaths of both Palestinians and Israels when you do this. The point is, one death on either side is too many. The point is ANY death is unacceptable. The point is your taking deaths and using them like goals in a hockey game exploits the real issue, that innocent people have died and no yoru turning this into a pissing match with my deaths are bigger then your deaths is not the way any moral, decent, logical, rational human being looks at a conflict. All your question does is indicate the obvious-that you seek to exploit this conflict to incite and present one side as suffering more then the other. Each suffer equally. Also get this straight. In a country with a small population. When a person dies, it has a different impact then in a country with a huge population. In your nonsensical inference that number of deaths alone is a way to understand impact on a society you reflect an absolut ignorance as to the impact a death has on either Palestinian or Israeli societies. "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Many considered Nelson Mandela a terrorist as well, while at the same time completely ignoring apartheid and the other devestating actions committed by the South African government. " Again you trot out an unoriginal and nonsensical phrase. To start with Nelson Mandela did not consecrate a constitution calling for the systemic extermination of all caucasians in South Africa. To compare Hamas's charter and agenda, to compare the Palestinian terrorist groups' agendas and tactics to those of Nelson Mandela are ridiculous. The point is, terror by anyone for any reason including expressing political will does not achieve freedom-it traps people, it traps them to a never-ending cycle of retaliation. That Sir is the point. Freedom fighting? You want to try couch what terrorism is at least be original and come up with some new way to do it. "That's quite the stretch, so should we ignore the massacre of Palestinians by Christian falangists whom were allowed to do so with ease." You again select massacres to match your political agenda like dishes at a buffet at some restaurant. I will take this massacre and this one, but not this one. When someone chooses dish a, I will counter with dish b. You trivialize these massacres when you compare them against one another. Its precisely why I have come on this forum and chastized people for trying to turn the word holocaust into a generic word for massacre and why I am in your face. Each massacre is tragic and stop exploiting them like scores in a morality match. You want to discuss the conflict then do so that does not turn these massacres into convenient dishes for you to order up to try establish higher moral ground. There is none. You want it straight here it is-the fact is simple and simple as can be. 80% of Palestine was illegally seized by Britain and turned into a Palestinian state called TransJordan that to this day has a law of return that allows any Palestinian to go to Jordan and automatically become Jordanian. The fact is the remaining 20% of Palestine has been fought over ever since. The fact is Syria and Lebanon were carved up for the French and Iraq and Jordan were carved up as pay backs to the Arab Feisal klan for their helping the British defeat the Turks in World War One. The fact is each of Fesisal's boys was given a country, one Jordan the other Iraq. The fact is the British and French carved up the Middle East in artificial little colonies and the British deliberately did so with premeditation to prevent a Jewish state from being created. The fact is Feisal would have allowed a Jewish state, and had plans to create an Arab state to work side by side with a Jewish state when the British and French intervened and did what they do, create a series of artificial dysfunctional empires they could rule by divide and conquer. The fact is Israel did not come about illegally and you can spin away all you want but Jews had just as much a right to live in Palestine as the Muslims who Britain flooded into Palestine. The fact is Jews coming to Palestine were no more foreign then the Muslims the British deliberately flooded into Palestine. The fact is Jordan is a Palestinian state and always has been. The fact is Israel came about because the Arab League gambled and felt it should engage in war and drive Jews into the sea rather then come up with two more countries in the remaining 20% of Palestine. The fact is had the Arab League not waged war the Jews in Palestine would have settled for a tiny country in less then 5% of what was originally pledged to them by the League of Nations. The fact is the arab League gambled and lost and the 1949 to 1967 Israeli border came about de facto from war not from peaceful negotiation. The fact is Syria to this day remains in a state of war with Israel. The fact is the Palestinian terror cells you refer to as freedom fighters do not just want all of Israel they want all of Jordan. The fact is the Israelis have tried repeatedly to disengage from the West Bank and Gaza and encourage a second Palestinian nation there and every time they do, every time they withdraw, one of over 300 terror cells uses that opportunity to attack it. The fact is there is no freedom fighting going on. What is going on are over 300 terror cells each with its own leader, fighting for control of empires and using Israel's existence as a pretense or cover. The fact is Israel is a pretense for violence and terror. The fact is Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Hamas don't give a rat's ass about their people. They burned and destroyed their green-houses, schools, hospitals, roads, community centres when Israel indirectly funded them and established grass roots projects with Palestinian officials and enabled Palestinians to go to work in Israel proper. Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and countless other cells deliberately blew this all up and killed any Palestinian collaborating and working with Israelis. You can spin this any way you want but it comes down to this. True freedom fighters would denounce terror. They would work openly with Israel and Jordan in creating a second Palestinian state for Muslims and form an economic common market. But they won't and they won't because this would mean admitting they have to live side by side Israel-that is what it all comes down to-the fact that after all these years terror still continues because the existence of Israel is still disputed-no more no less. Let's put it on the line and stop couching it-people are dying because terrorists deliberately want them to. As long as Palestinians die from the IDF retaliating against terrorists, it gives Hamas and Islamic Jihad the fuel they need to continue to exist. They can not afford to have Palestinians peacefully co-exist with Israelis-if they did, they would be out of business. You want to talk statistics and suffering-I say bullshit. Blood is red no matter who dies. What this comes down to is terror. Disengage terror, and people will find solutions. Allow terror to prevail and have people like you try sugar coat it and rationalize it, and we have conflict. You want to talk origins of conflict, then go find out why the Arab League chose to put Palestinians in refugee camps. Read what they said. Read what their intention for doing that was. Find out why no Arab country offered citizenship to refugees or paid one penny to look after them while Israel and the evil US did. Find out why we have refugee camps. Find out whose political agenda created them and why. Then come back and lecture me about freedom. Quote
myata Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 Just as said earlier - when you don't like the facts - make your own. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
DogOnPorch Posted October 18, 2007 Report Posted October 18, 2007 So should we immediately displace everyone from said nations from their homes and send them to refugee camps? Hey, Socrates...what's the sound of one hand clapping? This reminds me so much of the left attempting to call Bush a Nazi because of his grandfathers connections to the regime. Your entire argument is based on the idea that since one man was a terrible man we should thus support any action Israel takes part in. Even Bush's grand-pappy didn't command an SS army full of Arab and Bosnian volunteers. Of course it goes much farther than one man. The 13th SS had about 30,000 men at full strength. The 369th and 372nd at about 15,000 troopers each. That's a good chunk of the war-able male population of Arabs and Bosnians. Not to mention thousands of replacements. They didn't all turn to stone when the first rays of sunshine hit 'em. Then there's Egypt's and Syria's post war habit of hiding Nazis and giving them cushy jobs. So we should thus refuse to have negotiations with any group of people who are considered marginalized due to actions of some members that are considered "terrorist". You'll never solve the problem, and it continues to amaze me how people believe that we can solve the problem we face by simply dropping a bomb on people. Now where did I say we should drop a bomb on them? But no...we shouldn't 'negotiate' with terrorist states. Which is oddly enough was what Isreal has done as well. Israel blows up buses with suicide bombers? Can you post a link? Perhaps a link to the rocket attacks, too. While your at it, can you point out where Israel kidnaps actual soldiers manning their posts? No he simply supported a brutal regime in its war against Iran. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. My only regret about the Iran Iraq war is that they didn't wipe each other right out. As far as weapons, the Iraqis used Soviet weapons while Iranians were using a mixture of what the Shah had bought over the years from France, Britain, USA etc. What sort of support was given again? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know. ---Donald Rumsfeld Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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