DogOnPorch Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 The Middle-East was also a hot bed for old Nazi's escaping war crimes and looking for jobs. Egypt in particular. Obersturmbannführer-SS Otto Skorzeny the "head" of ODESSA found employment not only with Franco and Peron, but Nasser, too. He also funneled old SS chums through the area to South America or quieter parts of the Middle-East to escape from the Jewish Nazi hunters. That is if you believe ODESSA existed...lol. To be fair, though...ODESSA managed to get off the ground due to the German intelligence service being put to work by the US spying on the Soviets. Left a lot paths of escape... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no denying that Hitler and Stalin are alive today... they are waiting for us to forget, because this is what makes possible the resurrection of these two monsters. ---Simon Wiesenthal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 So...any sign of these other Palestinian/Arab leaders? Or do we simply take your word as proof? Dude, you said 'the levant'. There were leaders in Syria and Jordan as well. :D Easy, boy. Sorry to burst your bubble... the Pallys Who? But you're free to revise history... WTF are you talking about? Face it...they hated the Jews long before there ever was an Israel. Are you trying to justify something? It sure sounds like you are you trying to justify something. What could you be trying to justify, I wonder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 DogOnPorch: Hi Toaster...how's it goin'? Toaster: Oh not much...pop tarts, mainly...how's-u? DogOnPorch: Good...good. Did you see the game last night? Toaster: Nah...missed it. But I did see that movie you were talking about. DogOnPorch: Michael Collins? Toaster: No...the other one. Rob Roy...great flick. DogOnPorch: Liam Neeson really fit the role. Toaster: I heard they were looking at Tom Cruise at first. DogOnPorch: That freak!? No way. He's nuts. He and Mel Gibson should be forced to live on an island together. Toaster: Maybe put Rosie on there as well... DogOnPorch: Hey...I don't want to start a war... ---------------------------------------------------------- The difficulty with this conversation is that it's very different from most of the ones I've had of late. Which, as I explained, have mostly been with trees. ---Arthur Dent: Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guthrie Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 prior to WWII, Palestine was occupied by the Turks then the British -- during WWII Palestine traded hands but it was not until after WWII that Palestinians had their personal farms stolen and if they resisted, their lives taken Abu Nidal, at age six, watched Israeli tanks butcher his grandparents. So, yes, Abu Nidal turned into a vile terrorist but he had a reason to be one. All this Nazi talk is beyond hypocritical, in light of other discussions, moreover, it overlooks the glaring fact that all the Palestinian people ever wanted from any European power was help gaining freedom from some other European power. the neo-con rewrite of history is convenient for Israel but a pile of lies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 during WWII Palestine traded hands Eh? Better read some more...The Battle of El Alamein in particular. but it was not until after WWII that Palestinians had their personal farms stolen and if they resisted, their lives taken Support the losing side in a World War...and sh*t happens. Even to those who tried to ignore WW2. Perhaps they shouldn't have been killing folk up in Yugoslavia. They took their chance and rolled the dice...and lost. Had the Axis won WW2, I doubt there'd be this pesky Israel problem, hey? All this Nazi talk is beyond hypocritical, in light of other discussions, moreover, it overlooks the glaring fact that all the Palestinian people ever wanted from any European power was help gaining freedom from some other European power. Unfortunately for you, the Grand Mufti's Nazi past is well documented. He was part of Hitler's inner circle and was a General in the SS commanding an army of Muslim volunteers in the Balkans. He never faced war crimes trials for his major role in the Holocaust, escaping to Egypt. Arafat was his nephew...served under him during the 1948 War. the neo-con rewrite of history is convenient for Israel but a pile of lies lol...how many times did Palestine change hands again during WW2? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Every soldier must know, before he goes into battle, how the little battle he is to fight fits into the larger picture, and how the success of his fighting will influence the battle as a whole. ---General Bernard Law Montgomery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guthrie Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 how many times did Palestine change hands again during WW2? every time a new general was it town and every time the British contradicted their own policies\ and sh*t happens. that's right, and that sh*t is happening now -- but I am glad you removed your first sad answer to that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 every time a new general was it town and every time the British contradicted their own policies Oh...here silly me thought you were just being daft thinking Rommel and der Afrika Korp had overun the place. But of course I should have known nobody could be that dumb. The Britsh Mandate of Palestine was run by High Commissioners. Palestine was under Sir Harold MacMichael since before the war and was only replaced in 1944 due to an assassination attempt by the Jewish Stern Gang against himself and his wife. MacMichael had been serving in Africa and the Middle-East since 1915 all told. His replacement was the Hero of Malta, Sir John Vereker, 6th Viscount Gort and by all accounts was quite a popular fellow...except that he had cancer and didn't do much of anything. He was replaced by Sir Alan Cunningham who was more a thorn to the Jews than the Arabs, by far. Bevingrad and all... The British in the area tended to support the Arab cause...or it might be more accurate to say 'didn't support the Zionist cause' and wanted a calm Palestine...not a rowdy one. The Brit's sole purpose there being to watch over the Suez more than the national ambitions of Jews or Arabs. They had been putting the issue on the backburner since the promises to both sides (Jew and Arab) during WW1. but I am glad you removed your first sad answer to that one What sad answer was that? I said what I said. I'll say it again... Supporting the wrong side in a World War is proven to not be a healthy choice. Ask your doctor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I spent a year in that town, one Sunday. ---George Burns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 ... "Palestinians". Their leader was a top Nazi... That is inherently dubious. Also, should I take it you have conceded that you erred in describing the mufti of Jerusalem as the leader of all Levantine Arabs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 Poor woody, getting thrashed again. Scott, FYI the Forum Rules and Guidelines state: POSTING CONTENT All posts must contain some aspect of an argument or attempt to stimulate discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 That is inherently dubious. Hardly. He was a Nazi...a biggie, too. Himmler and Eichmann being personal friends. He was almost a unique figure being able to seek audience with Hitler without Bormann's say-so. I believe only Heinz Guderian, Leni Riefenstahl and Hanna Reitsch being treated similarly. But perhaps there was a few more... One of his worst deeds was the personal intervention against a Red Cross plan to exchange German prisoners in Russia for Jewish children being sent to the Death Camps. Another was the blocking of Jews leaving the Axis Minor countries and fleeing to the Middle-East. He talked his SS chums into sending them to the camps rather than tossing them at his door. Also, should I take it you have conceded that you erred in describing the mufti of Jerusalem as the leader of all Levantine Arabs? Negative. You might point to some others (though you haven't)...but this fellow called the shots for the group. I even kindly pointed out the various pan-Arab leadership organizations he either formed or chaired. You've spluttered alot and sounded indignant that the poor "Palestinian" darlings could be anything else than victims of evil Zionist tanks and such. Too bad...history says otherwise. Their leaders still have the stink of WW2's ashes on them. Your mere disbelief will not change this... Had the Grand Mufti shut-up and taken the UN partition, there'd be a proper Palestine today. But his hatred fueled generations...and will continue to do so as his popularity in death is still great. ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz. ---Hauptsturmführer-SS Dieter Wisliceny: Nuremberg War Trials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Had the Grand Mufti shut-up and taken the UN partition, there'd be a proper Palestine today. But his hatred fueled generations...and will continue to do so as his popularity in death is still great. Funny, I bet you consider anti-immigration xenophobes in western society as perfectly within the limits of human nature for not wanting to bring different cultures within their midst. But somehow when Arabs do it, it's "hate." Either all xenophobes are disguising their bigotry by claiming that they don't mind others as long as they are "over there," or else the Arabs were doing exactly what other homogeneous societies have done when rejecting the Partition. Which is it for you? I see it as the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 But somehow when Arabs do it, it's "hate." If anything was hate...it was the Holocaust. Funny, I bet you consider anti-immigration xenophobes in western society as perfectly within the limits of human nature for not wanting to bring different cultures within their midst. I find it interesting that you'd pull a strawman instead of simply pulling up some historical reference to prove that I could be wrong. Either all xenophobes are disguising their bigotry by claiming that they don't mind others as long as they are "over there," or else the Arabs were doing exactly what other homogeneous societies have done when rejecting the Partition. Which is it for you? I see it as the latter. Further negative characterization... Tell you what. Instead of pointlessly attacking my character you should provide information that this fellow wasn't in charge and didn't form an army of Muslim volunteers in Yugoslavia while at the same time, playing a key roll in the Holocaust. Just a thought. ---------------------------------------------------------- It was dark already...They lined us up on a ledge which was so small that we couldn't get much of a footing on it. They began shooting us. I shut my eyes, clenched my fists, tensed all my muscles and took a plunge down before the bullets hit me. It seemed I was flying forever. But I landed safely on the bodies. After a while, when the shooting stopped, I heard the Germans climbing into the ravine. They started finishing off all those who were not dead yet, those who were moaning, hiccuping, tossing, writhing in agony. They ran their flashlights over the bodies and finished off all who moved. ---Dina Pronicheva, Babi Yar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 That is inherently dubious.Hardly. He was a Nazi...a biggie, too. Himmler and Eichmann being personal friends. He was almost a unique figure being able to seek audience with Hitler without Bormann's say-so. Maybe you're right. Still, I find it hard to believe that this was not mere ceremony and that he was seriously accepted among racist Nazis as a figure who they took seriously in overall Nazi planning. Also, should I take it you have conceded that you erred in describing the mufti of Jerusalem as the leader of all Levantine Arabs?Negative. You might point to some others (though you haven't)... There was Shukri al-Quwatli in Syria and as-Sayyid Abdullah in Jordan. You've spluttered alot and sounded indignant that the poor "Palestinian" darlings could be anything else than victims of evil Zionist tanks and such. That's utter shit and you know it. Had the Grand Mufti shut-up and taken the UN partition, ... In the absence of hindsight, why should he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Funny, I bet you consider anti-immigration xenophobes in western society as perfectly within the limits of human nature for not wanting to bring different cultures within their midst. But somehow when Arabs do it, it's "hate."That's pretty rich, considering that most "Palestinians" didn't live there until Zionist capital made the land habitable. Why is it that no one values people actually doing something with land, as opposed to using it as a base or place from which to kill people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 That's pretty rich, considering that most "Palestinians" didn't live there until Zionist capital made the land habitable. "most" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Maybe you're right. Still, I find it hard to believe that this was not mere ceremony and that he was seriously accepted among racist Nazis as a figure who they took seriously in overall Nazi planning. Many top Nazis were dubious, as you say, about the Muslim units for ideological reasons...but Hitler liked the Grand Mufti and Himmler was especially interested in his volunteers as they were very keen on taking the battle to the enemy. They became one of Himmler's pet projects much like Goering's private army... Experiments in command control showed that the Muslim units were likely to do whatever they wanted rather than what HQ wanted, so German officers were the order of the day. The 13th SS became one of the finest specialized units in the entire German military. Their forte' being anti-partisan combat in mountainous regions. This divison was mainly for Bosnian Muslims while the 369th and 372nd Croat (formed in Croatia) divisions and smaller units were for other Muslim nationalities. All operated in former Yugoslavia and were Tito's main foe. At about 25,000 men per division not counting replacements...that's quite the pack of cards. There was Shukri al-Quwatli in Syria and as-Sayyid Abdullah in Jordan. Abdullah was a nice fellow...too nice as far as the hot heads were concerned. He was going to sign a seperate peace with Israel until the Arab League said "no". He played no role in WW2. Ironically though, he was assassinated in 1951 by a Palestinian apparently related to the Grand Mufti, Mustapha Shukri Usho. Shukri al-Quwatli was more interested in fighting the French mandate and lining his own pockets to be much of a leader of anything...as was his predecessor, al-Ayyubi. Shukri al-Quwatli was removed by military coup due to lack of popularity. But they re-elected him under miltary rule as a ceremonial figurehead...but, then forced him out again when he fought with Nasser over the direction of the UAR...which he helped form. But, you did find the two other possibilites...neither had or have the lasting charisma that the Grand Mufti held and still holds over the Arab imagination. If you're a Holocaust denying fanatic on the front line against World Zionism, the Grand Mufti is a noble hero to be admired. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- We must prepare ourselves for a lengthy battle because this century is the century of Islam, the century of liberation, the century of victory and sovereignty, by Allah's will all those oppressive regimes will diminish and with our determination and sacrifices we will be the coming power. ---Sheikh Yassin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottSA Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Poor woody, getting thrashed again. Scott, FYI the Forum Rules and Guidelines state: POSTING CONTENT All posts must contain some aspect of an argument or attempt to stimulate discussion. Stop disrupting threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Oh...as well... To be fair to the Muslims who volunteered for duty in the SS, it should be noted that numerous Waffen-SS formations were made up of foriegn nationals. Unkrainians, Norwegians, Dutch and such who were neither Muslim or Arab. The main difference being that the Grand Mufti's formations were religiously based rather than nationally based. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We'll meet again. Don't know where. Don't know when... ---Vera Lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Tell you what. Instead of pointlessly attacking my character you should provide information that this fellow wasn't in charge and didn't form an army of Muslim volunteers in Yugoslavia while at the same time, playing a key roll in the Holocaust. Just a thought. I'm not attacking your character - just showing a major flaw in your logic when saying "hate" was the determining factor in the rejection of the UN Partition. As for inaction on the part of the grand Mufti during the holocaust, the same can be said of many many others as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 That's pretty rich, considering that most "Palestinians" didn't live there until Zionist capital made the land habitable. Why is it that no one values people actually doing something with land, as opposed to using it as a base or place from which to kill people? Sorry, I'm confused as to which Zionist capital you are referring to - Jerusalem or Tel Aviv? Either way, are you denying that there was an expulsion of some sort where the status of its descendants remains a point of dispute to this day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 I'm not attacking your character - just showing a major flaw in your logic when saying "hate" was the determining factor in the rejection of the UN Partition. Sure you were. As for inaction on the part of the grand Mufti during the holocaust, the same can be said of many many others as well. Inaction? If by "inaction" you mean sending people to Death Camps and being a major factor in the Holocaust...then ok..."inaction". Whatever keeps you sane while rootin' for the piece of crap Nazi garbage Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations. ---Yasser Arafat: head of the PLO and nephew of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffycat Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Oh DOP, you sure love to call folks Nazis eh? One of your fave slurs! Let's see - can you think of anyone else who collaborated with the dreaded Nazis? Oh - wait didn't the WZO itself collaborate with Hitler's regime? Gosh it did! "Edward Mortimer, presently Director of Communications for UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, praised Zionism in the Age of the Dictators in the 2/11/84 London Times. Zionism, Mortimer wrote, "started from the assumption that anti-Semitism was inevitable and even in a sense justified so long as Jews were outside the land of Israel. It is true that only an extreme lunatic fringe of Zionism went so far as to offer to join the war on Germany's side in 1941, in the hope of establishing "the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, and bound by a treaty with the German Reich." Unfortunately this was the group which the present Prime Minister of Israel chose to join." Yitzhak Shamir, Prime Minister, 198384/8692, was a leader of the 'Stern Gang' when it tried to ally with Hitler. He is an elder statesman in Israel's ruling Likud Party. In the 1930s and 40s, several Likud leaders, followers of Vladimir Jabotinsky's "Zionist-Revisionism," proclaimed themselves totalitarians." Just one example of many. Now - what is your point again? How does this impact on the occupation of Palestine currently? How does the Mufti's alignment with Hitler differ from those of radical Zionists of the time? Shall we recall another pretty nasty sentiment: "When, after Kristallnacht, the British, in the hope of easing the pressure for increased immigration into Palestine, proposed that thousands of children be admitted directly into Britain, Ben-Gurion was absolutely against the plan, telling a meeting of Labour Zionist leaders on 7 December 1938: 'If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England, and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Yisrael, then I would opt for the second alternative. For we must weigh not only the life of these children, but also the history of the People of Israel.'" Let's face it DOP, wars result in strange bedfellows. Again - outside of relying on the guilt of the Holocaust - how does this impact the abuse of the innocent Palestinians of today? Does this justify the illegal settlements? The creation of generational refugees? Hmmm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Poor woody, getting thrashed again. Scott, FYI the Forum Rules and Guidelines state: POSTING CONTENT All posts must contain some aspect of an argument or attempt to stimulate discussion. Stop disrupting threads. I'm helping you fit in and comply with the rules, especially since you seem to have such ongoing difficulty in this regard. P.S. Your bizarrely offended responses to my assistance are at least as disruptive as my pointers. Not to mention the obvious disruptive quality of the posts that prompt the pointers! Like, for example, posting the no-value comment that started this exchange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottSA Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Poor woody, getting thrashed again. Scott, FYI the Forum Rules and Guidelines state: POSTING CONTENT All posts must contain some aspect of an argument or attempt to stimulate discussion. Stop disrupting threads. I'm helping you fit in and comply with the rules, especially since you seem to have such ongoing difficulty in this regard. P.S. Your bizarrely offended responses to my assistance are at least as disruptive as my pointers. Not to mention the obvious disruptive quality of the posts that prompt the pointers! Like, for example, posting the no-value comment that started this exchange. Why do you persist in this inane occupation? Four people have already told you they don't need or want your help. For my part I can't possibly make it more abundantly clear that I personally don't want or need your help. Please stop. If you must run around reporting posts, please report all my posts quietly and unobtrusively, so that it doesn't intrude upon the thread. You may not have the capacity to notice, but your "pointer" posts offer nothing of substance to the thread either, so you might take your own "point" under consideration while you're trying to figure things out. Perhaps a visit to a doctor of the mind might be in order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 ... Four people have already told you they don't need or want your help. So? For my part I can't possibly make it more abundantly clear that I personally don't want or need your help. You may not want it. But I disagree with you about you needing it. Please stop. I've told you numerous times already, the remedy is to learn and follow the rules. You may as well drop these pointless objections. This forum operates a certain way, and I am simply acting within it. Whetehr you like that or not makes no bones whatsoever. If you must run around reporting posts, please report all my posts quietly and unobtrusively, In fact, in this case I didn't report the post, I merely cited a rule you had seemingly overlooked. Anyway, No, I will not accede to your request. You might as well stop disrupting threads with your groundless objections. ... so that it doesn't intrude upon the thread. It is the initial rule breach that disrupts the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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