Homosexuality is an anomaly

[Liam]

...However, it seems that most pedophiles are attracted to the same sex. There's a low rate of gay people, and amongst those gay people are most child molestors. Even if I knew one was gay, I would into assume that they molest children (because there's still probably a minority of gays who are also pedophiles) but to say that gays are just as unlikely as heterosexuals to be pedophiles is probably false...

Being molested leaves a mark on one's mind. It's a point of no return in one's life. Those having been molested take different paths in their life than they would otherwise. Some abstain from sexual activity altogether, even though they may have become a great parent. Others usually end up quite promiscuous, and amongst them many end up gay. Not all gay people were molested as children, but there is probably a higher rate of gays molested as a child as opposed to heterosexuals molested as a child.

Most pedophiles are looking for the easiest access to their victims. In many cases, that means a male molester will seek victims where he is trusted, namely, while acting as a chaperone to young boys. It does not necessarily mean he is gay, it just makes him a wily hunter.

Regarding the claimed correlation between abuse as a child causing someone to become gay, I have a theory about that but it is about how some molesters choose their victims. I think some molesters choose some victims who are already deemed by their peers as outsiders, kids who are isolated and who have a smaller social network of friends they can confide in, maybe a strained family life. It's not uncommon for little kids who will grow up to be gay adults (as I said, I knew I was gay by age 5) to fit that profile and present themselves as a perfect victim to someone who wants to commit and have it never be discovered.

[sharkman]

Wow, so there is a higher than normal relation for those molested who become gay?

[Rue]

' Not all gay people were molested as children, but there is probably a higher rate of gays molested as a child as opposed to heterosexuals molested as a child."

I am not aware of any criminology or forensic studies to back up such a thesis. In fact all the statistics show is the vast majority of children molested are girls by men. After that there does not seem to be any statistics to suggest gay children are molested more then straight children. What we do know is the pedophile does not have a preference for gay or straight boys or girls for that matter-he takes what he can find. But I agree with your other points so see below.

"Most pedophiles are looking for the easiest access to their victims. In many cases, that means a male molester will seek victims where he is trusted, namely, while acting as a chaperone to young boys. It does not necessarily mean he is gay, it just makes him a wily hunter."

That is precisely the point and what police and forensic psychiatrists believe.

"I think some molesters choose some victims who are already deemed by their peers as outsiders, kids who are isolated and who have a smaller social network of friends they can confide in, maybe a strained family life. It's not uncommon for little kids who will grow up to be gay adults (as I said, I knew I was gay by age 5) to fit that profile and present themselves as a perfect victim to someone who wants to commit and have it never be discovered."

Bang on. That is the point. Now whether that means more gay children would be molested we just do not know yet because the stats aren't there but what you said is absolutely bang on and again the investigations by forensic psychiatrists and police of pedophiles and asking them why they chose certain child has shown in many stats to back up absolutely what you say. Does it make gay children more likely to be molested can't say but if they are feeling confused and alienated, etc., it could very well make them more vulnerable so maybe one day someone will get stats to back up this finding.

You made excellent insightful remarks and while you were intellectually honest to make it clear it was your opinion from what I have read in my graduate studies and the stats they have, it seems to strongly support your comments about children being selected precisely because the pedophile looks for vulnerable children. Pedophiles are predators, they do what predators do, pick off the vulnerable.

[Rue]

Wow, so there is a higher than normal relation for those molested who become gay?

No there are no stats to back this up. However analysis of pedophiles who have been interviewed by forensic psychiatrists or police in creating the pedophile profile indicates they are predators and look for weak, vulnerable, confused, alienated children who have low self esteem and crave acceptance and affection.

So if a child who is young and knows he is gay but is not comfortable with it, the pedophile might smell or sense his or her vulenrability and exploit it. The pedophile doesn't pick them because they are gay - the pedophile has no way of knowing they are gay - they pick them because they are alienated and vulnerable. The pedophile simply will take what ever he can get.

The only thing stats do show clearly is that 80% - 90% of sexual molestations are done by men against girls. The rest which are men molesting boys has not been broken down because it would be too hard to be able to define which children were gay and not gay and no your pretending to turn this around to back up your idiot stereotype that molested children are turned gay is obnoxious.

The notion that gay children are more likely to be molested because they want sex with men if that is where your brain is headed with the wow, aint a fact at all. Gay children do not look for sex with adults.

[sharkman]

Yikes! Perhaps I don't want to get into this today after all...

Edit: But no, I wasn't thinking that gay children are more likely to be molested because they want sex, that's silly.

I was pondering if the act of molestation causes the sex drive in children to change. I think that's sort of what Liam said. Wait, let me read it again...

[sharkman]

So, what the two of you are saying is more kids who are gay get molested, not more kids who later become gay are molested.

At any rate, the one gay person I ever knew (at least who told me they were gay) was molested by a woman repeatedly, and said that experience caused him to reject women and become gay.

[M.Dancer]

So, what the two of you are saying is more kids who are gay get molested, not more kids who later become gay are molested.

At any rate, the one gay person I ever knew (at least who told me they were gay) was molested by a woman repeatedly, and said that experience caused him to reject women and become gay.

You have only known one Gay person?!?!

[Liam]

So, what the two of you are saying is more kids who are gay get molested, not more kids who later become gay are molested.

At any rate, the one gay person I ever knew (at least who told me they were gay) was molested by a woman repeatedly, and said that experience caused him to reject women and become gay.

Well, I was never molested and I'm not involved at all in the mental health field, but I think it makes sense (if you can rationalize the criminal mind) that a lion is going to frequent the field with the most numerous of the easiest prey.

But to address your point, I think any child who is an outside the norm (whether he is gay, whether he's a rebel, whether his mom and dad are going through a divorce) can probably be seen by a potential molester as an easy mark. Who is the kid going to tell and who is going to believe him if he blabs?

I can't address your acquaintance's claim, but will say that I have heard something similar from female rape victims. Personally, I think sexual orientation is hardwired into people and I think some people who are not honest with themselves want to place the blame for their being gay on someone else. I am skeptical of such claims. But, like I said, that's just opinion as I'm not a mental health expert.

[sharkman]

So, what the two of you are saying is more kids who are gay get molested, not more kids who later become gay are molested.

At any rate, the one gay person I ever knew (at least who told me they were gay) was molested by a woman repeatedly, and said that experience caused him to reject women and become gay.

You have only known one Gay person?!?!

Yeah, just the one guy. Wait, are you gay?

[M.Dancer]

So, what the two of you are saying is more kids who are gay get molested, not more kids who later become gay are molested.

At any rate, the one gay person I ever knew (at least who told me they were gay) was molested by a woman repeatedly, and said that experience caused him to reject women and become gay.

You have only known one Gay person?!?!

Yeah, just the one guy. Wait, are you gay?

Joyful really, and I like boobs though.....but I just find that amazing. Since high school 30 years ago I've known dozens and dozens of Gay men and women. I prefer women, but that's just me. You know...."wonder what they do..." sort of thing. With men i just shudder a bit and try not to think about it....

But on the otherhand, most people's sex lives other than my own doesn't interest me.

But like i said, I have known dozens.....some conservative, some wingnuts, some good mothers, some good fathers, some good cyclists, some good PR professionals, some good some bad........

[Kapitän Rotbart]

Kapitan my ference to lesbians mentoring straight men was tongue in cheek. Now as for your comment most pedophiles molest the same sex you are absolutely wrong and I wwent out of my way to probide statistics to show that is b.s. and it is b.s.80 to 90% of pedophiles are men who molest girls. Get your facts straight.

Rue, please quote your sources.

I quote mine:

32 percent of those child molestation cases involved homosexuals. Nearly a third of these cases come from only 1-2% of the population.

- http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/one.php

Most molestors are straight, but a huge rate are gay, pertaining to a very small (and insignificant) proportion of the total population. Face it, if someone is gay, they are more likely to be a pedophile than their straight fellow men. The article uses numbers from The "National Opinion Research Center, [who] in 1992 found that 2.8% of men and 1.4% of women identified themselves as homosexual or bisexual."

Straight pedophiles will find ways of molesting girls. Straight male rapists are more likely to rape a woman of any age between 7 and 77 than to rape a guy.

Makes sense that the most common case is man-rape-girl, because most rapists are men (almost exclusively) and a majority of them are straight. The fact that almost a third of molestors belong to up to 2% of the population means they are up to a high rate within that group.

There are many factors that can make someone turn to homosexuality. We're all born with distinct personalities and some may have a higher predisposition to homosexuality than others, but there is no proof that anyone is born gay. As I said earlier, believing that one is born gay is as ridiculous as believing that one is born saved or not, Calvinist ideology which inspired the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas. There is no proof to this theory. One could not possibly know that they are gay prior to puberty because they cannot comprehend romantic love at that age. These are simply cases of cunfused children who consider themselves 'different' and try sorting this out without proper direction. I will admit that all unproven things are possible, but there is no reason to believe that people are born gay.

Being molested is a point of no return. It will trigger some sort of behavior which would most likely otherwise not be triggered. Not necessarily homosexuality, but it's a very possible outcome. Children not having been molested do not go through this 'point of no return' and are not forced to think about sexuality so early in their life that they are less likely to pertain to a minority group of any kind.

[guyser]

Rue, please quote your sources.

I quote mine:

http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/one.php

With all due respect...that is no source to site should honesty be included in this conversation.

This should have tipped you off. It is from their banner headline.

"Empowering People of Faith

through Knowledge"

http://www.traditionalvalues.org/

I could think of some truthful headline banner to put there.

[Black Dog]

We're all born with distinct personalities and some may have a higher predisposition to homosexuality than others, but there is no proof that anyone is born gay.

Is anyone born straight?

[guyser]

Is anyone born straight?

Good question .

[Rue]

The myth that the Kapitan again repeats about gays being pedophiles will not go away but it needs to be exposed head on. So here we go again. The web site the Kapitan quotes is one of a series of Christian web-sites with an express agenda to portray homo-sexuality and pedophilia as being one and the same and evil. The web-site Kapitan quotes is from a Christian organization that believes homo-sexuals are sick and can be cured if they become Christian and commit to Jesus. Let’s get these groups at in the open and in addition to the one the Kapitan quotes as if it’s a credible psychological or psychiatric source as opposed to aright wing Christian anti-gay political organization are; Family Research Institute, Focus On the Family, Liberty Counsel, National Association For Research Theraopy, Parents and Friends of ex Gays and Gays, Positive Alternatives For Homosexuals, and the Traditional Value and Coalition of course and the National Policy Institute.

I will say this to the Kapitan, I am going to send another post taking the time to once and for all detail where your stereotype and misquoted statistics have been taken from by these Christian groups. For now I will state this-go to www.unh.edu/ccrc/factsheets/pdf/CFSA-F520.pdf, p 5, fact sheets which repeats that all reliable statistics kept on pedophilia shows that 78-89% of child sex victims are girls.

You want stats Kapitan to show what you are quoting is bull-shit. I will be pleased. I presented them already in my other posts which you choose to ignore but hey I always have more;

1.Source: US Dept of Health and Human Services,Administration for Children & Families, Child Welfare Information Gateway (formerly Nat'l Clearinghouse on Child Abuse & Neglect), 2000.

Composition of substantiated child abuse in 2000:

879,000 children were victims of child maltreatment.

Neglect ~ 63%

Physical ~ 19%

Sexual ~ 10%

Psychological ~ 8%

Except for victims of sexual abuse, rates

were similar for male and female victimization:

11.2 and 12.8 per 1,000 children respectively.

Rate of sexual abuse by gender:

1.7 victims per 1,000 female children

0.4 victims per 1,000 male children.

2. Source: HHS National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect and mandated by Congress survey for period of 1986- 1993 concluded that girls are sexually abused three times more often than boys;

3. Source: Statistics summarized from theU.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics

Inmate interviews in 277 prisons in 45 states, conducted during 1991, revealed: three out of four child victims were female

4. Source: National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System, U.S. federal Department of Health and Human Services- nearly 90,000 children are sexually abused every year- approximately 80 percent of these sexually molested children are girls

[Rue]

Now let’s deal with this bullshit myth the Kapitan and some others keep repeating that pedophiles are gay. Their bias is reinforced by Christian groups that deliberately distort a report by A. Nicholas Groth an expert in the study of sexual offenders against women and children. He is estimated to have treated over 3000 child molesters over the course of two decades. And is the former director of the Sex Offender Program at the Connecticut Department of Corrections and wrote the book Men Who Rape: Psychology of the Offender.

I qoted his studies in an ealier post that Kapitan chose to skip over and ignore and counter with his alleged statistics.

Groth has found that one third of all cases of child molestation involve an underage boy and an adult male.

It is this factopr that is appropriated by these Christian groups who then try argue homosexuals are disproportionately engaged in molesting children. What these groups ignore of course is that Groth went on to explicitly states that it is a myth that men who molest boys are homosexual.

His studies define child molesters within two types: "fixated" and "regressed." The fixated offender is attracted primarily to children and has little or no interest in adult relationships and its these people we really mean when we say "pedophile." On the other hand the regressed offender is interested in and capable of adult sexual relationships and then may on occasion regress to sexual encounters with children, usually when unable to find an adult relationship.

According to Groth, the fixated offender, or pedophile, tends to select boys more often than girls, but this tendency HAS NOTHING to do with homosexuality. The Christian groups like the one Kapitan quote, skip over this next part. They simply jump on the fact that pedophiles tend to select boys more then girls. They then do what the Kapitan does which is absolutely incorrect and that is to say if you have sex with a child of the same sex, its homo-sexual, and it its with a child of the same sex, its hetero-sexual. That is absolutely wrong. Sex with a child is neither homo-sexual or hetero-sexual. Homo-sexual and hetero-sexual relationships are between consenting adults. Same sex with a child is not with an adult.

Now let’s deal with this odious bull shit stereotype that incorrectly uses the terms for adult consensual sex (hetero-sex, homo-sex) head on once and for all. Fixated child molesters are drawn to children sexually because they identify with the child and part of them wants to remain a child. It is for this reason that the trend for fixated offenders is to target boys as victims. They aren’t attracted to their gender, but they see the boy as a projected representation of themselves. Since the vast majority of sexual pedophiles are men, this then occurs. However if you do not take the time to break-down and properly decipher and analyze what actually goes on in the mind of a pedophile you will do what these Christian groups and the Kapitan does, simply impose your preconceived bias based on your religious concepts and not research further and selectively skip the most important features of pedophilia.

It is precisely because pedophiles feel themselves to be more child than adult – more boys than men – they want to remain in the company of children.

Groth’s studies which the Christian groups skip over, found that in fact pedophiles are uninterested in adult homosexual relationships. In fact, they frequently express a strong sexual aversion to adult males, reporting that what they find attractive about the immature boy are his feminine features and the absence of secondary sexual characteristics such as body hair and muscles."

This is precisely what I repeated in my earlier posts. Kapitan and others simply ignore this because it doesn’t fit with their stereotype of pedophiles and gays being the same.

Furthermore with the second type of offender, the regressed offender, Groth showed them to be predominantly heterosexual AND NOT HOMO-SEXUAL. With this second type they temporarily turn to chidlren.

Groth’s studies showed regressed offenders were more likely to choose girls than boys as victims.

Let’s get it clear as can be. Even when pedophiles are attracted to boys, they are attracted to them precisely because they do not have masculine characteristics and are feminine looking including having slight builds and lack of hair.

A homo-sexual is attracted to developed men. Even if you wish to stereotype certain gay men as feminine, they still have fully grown genitilia, body hair, and their bodies have matured. The stereotype flows from thinking that since some gay men appear feminine or like to look like young boys this means gays are pedophiles. This stereotype is no different then saying hetero-sexuals are all child molesters because a portion of straight men have lolita syndrome, i.e., they like their sex with young looking women.

In fact Groth found no cases of boy molestation in which the offender had an adult homosexual orientation. So Groth who the Kapitan repeats and distorts because I am sure he is not aware that the Christian group he quotes stole its studies from Groth and then selectively skipped over the parts they did not like, concluded homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia are not synonymous but in fact are mutually exclusive precisely because the homosexual male is sexually attracted to masculine qualities whereas the heterosexual male is sexually attracted to feminine characteristics, and the sexually immature child’s qualities are more feminine than masculine.

Groth’s studies which have time and time again been backed up by other studieshave shown the child offender who is attracted to and engaged in adult sexual relationships is most often heterosexual.

Now Kapitan you want to go cure a gay person by having them pray to Jesus for their 'sins" be my guest but don't take studies that have been misappropriated by these Christian groups out of context. It aint Christian like.

[Kapitän Rotbart]

Rue, I'll admit that although I skipped most pages of this thread prior to my first post and that I probably quoted a biased source, I read everything you wrote, no matter how absurd it may have been. The source I quoted may have been biased, but pretty much all sources on that topic are biased. Whether it's 20 or 30% of pedophiles who belong to the GBLT, that's still a huge proportion cosidering lets say roughly a quarter of pedophiles are gay, yet gays represent lets say 1.5% of the total population. Maybe 75% (roughly) of pedophiles are clearly not gay, yet they belong to the remaining 98.5% of the population.

Now I comment.

The myth that the Kapitan again repeats about gays being pedophiles will not go away but it needs to be exposed head on.

What myth? I never said that gays are pedophiles. Look at it this way: if you devide a population based on hair color, you'll get roughly the same number of pedophiles in each group. If you devide population by sexual orientation, you have a much higher rate of pedophiles in the GBLT than outside the GBLT. Figure this: 1-2% of people are gay. Much less than 1% of people are pedophiles (I imagine). So even if all pedophiles were gay, most gays would still probably not be pedophiles. The GBLT simply has the highest rate of homosexuals. I will still assume that a homosexual is not a pedophile due to the fact that even if all pedophiles were gay, they'd still be a minority amongst gays.

According to Groth, the fixated offender, or pedophile, tends to select boys more often than girls, but this tendency HAS NOTHING to do with homosexuality. The Christian groups like the one Kapitan quote, skip over this next part. They simply jump on the fact that pedophiles tend to select boys more then girls. They then do what the Kapitan does which is absolutely incorrect and that is to say if you have sex with a child of the same sex, its homo-sexual, and it its with a child of the same sex, its hetero-sexual. That is absolutely wrong. Sex with a child is neither homo-sexual or hetero-sexual. Homo-sexual and hetero-sexual relationships are between consenting adults. Same sex with a child is not with an adult.

Children may not look physically like adults, yet boys still have a penis and girls still have a vagina. If a man has sex with a boy, he is having sex with someone of the same sex, meaning it's homosexual relations (this definition is not limited by age). You could take all the variables you like into consideration, like the fact that some boy-molesting pedophiles wouldn't have relations with a full-grown man, but they may not have relations with a full-grown woman either. I consider all possibilities, but the fact that a man who rapes a boy would be a participant in same-sex relations doesn't change. A pedophile may prefer those of the opposite sex, but if they have same-sex relations, they have had homosexual relations and are therefore a homoseuxal.

Someone is guilty of their acts until forgiven. It only takes once... if one commits theft once, they are a thief. If one participates in homosexual relations once, they are homosexual (or bi-sexual). The list goes on. This remains until one repents and makes a firm commitment to not persue such acts. Homosexuality is tricky though, one can be an inactive homosexual, and this is where the Catholic Church is the most gay-tolerant large religious institution. I explain. All major (religious) institutions claim that the practice of homosexuality is immoral. However, the Catholic Church admits the possibility of being an inactive homosexual. In other words, one who is (exclusively) sexually attracted to those of the same sex yet choose abstinence. These people are doing nothing immoral according to the Catholic Church (extramarital relations are immoral in the Catholic Church whether hetero- or homosexual). Other institutions would not understand "inactive homosexuality" and would simply keep praying until the devils go away (and that the person no longer be homosexual), or simply exclude the gay individual from the community, including Evangelicals, Muslims and Jews.

A homo-sexual is attracted to developed men. Even if you wish to stereotype certain gay men as feminine, they still have fully grown genitilia, body hair, and their bodies have matured. The stereotype flows from thinking that since some gay men appear feminine or like to look like young boys this means gays are pedophiles. This stereotype is no different then saying hetero-sexuals are all child molesters because a portion of straight men have lolita syndrome, i.e., they like their sex with young looking women.

Nonsense, younger looking women are not children. Unless these straight guys go bellow legal age for intercourse, they aren't causing any harm to society. A homosexual is someone who has sexual relations with someone of the same sex. The definition I have from WordWeb is "Someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex". No mention of age in that definition.

In fact Groth found no cases of boy molestation in which the offender had an adult homosexual orientation. So Groth who the Kapitan repeats and distorts because I am sure he is not aware that the Christian group he quotes stole its studies from Groth and then selectively skipped over the parts they did not like, concluded homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia are not synonymous but in fact are mutually exclusive precisely because the homosexual male is sexually attracted to masculine qualities whereas the heterosexual male is sexually attracted to feminine characteristics, and the sexually immature child’s qualities are more feminine than masculine.

Any community can use any part of any research they like. The source I quoted provided some numbers.

As I said, these pedophiles may not be predisposed to homosexuality, but if they have sex with a kid of the same sex, then they fit that definition mentioned above.

Now Kapitan you want to go cure a gay person by having them pray to Jesus for their 'sins" be my guest but don't take studies that have been misappropriated by these Christian groups out of context. It aint Christian like.

These Christian groups are giving an objective look at some data. There was no "hate" (to my knowledge) in the source I quoted. Quoting numbers presented by a certain group in itself is not un-"Christian like".

I'll admit that I am Christian, but you are using a personal attack (refering to religion) by your nonsensical comment. I pray for whoever I please, and if I pray for a homosexual, I make the same prayer I make for straight people; that God's will be done.

By the way, this post is about homosexuality, not about pedophilia. I simply wanted to comment that you were wrong in stating that there were no correlation between homosexuals and pedophiles. A large number of pedophiles engage in man-boy relations, meaning they fit the definition of 'homosexual' (regardless of whether or not they would engage in man-man relations). I never accused gays of being pedophiles, I just said that there is an existing correlation (as weak as it may be, gays are still more likely to be pedophiles than straights).

Those pertaining to the GBLT are more likely to have a higher education than straight people though.

I'm kinda curious, but I wonder if pedophiles are more likely to average higher education than the general population.

My point for this thread is that homosexuality is not normal and we should not be expected to not assume that everyone is straight, for the simple reason that 98+% of people are straight.

[Rue]

.."roughly a quarter of pedophiles are gay,"

I again repeat there are absolutely no statistics that have stated the above. This is a complete fabrication by yourself.

"I never said that gays are pedophiles.... A pedophile may prefer those of the opposite sex, but if they have same-sex relations, they have had homosexual relations and are therefore a homoseuxal"

Read the above that is exactly what you continue to state.

"Someone is guilty of their acts until forgiven. It only takes once... if one commits theft once, they are a thief. If one participates in homosexual relations once, they are homosexual (or bi-sexual)."

The above represents your personal religious views which you are imposing non gay people and establishes clearly you are morally judging them and discriminating against them and use your religious views as the pretext for such behaviour.

" A homosexual is someone who has sexual relations with someone of the same sex. The definition I have from WordWeb is "Someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex". No mention of age in that definition"

The above is typical of what you have done in this debate. Simply look for what you want to see. Now you called me absurd, who is being absurd? Of course the definition for homo-sexual does not comment on age. Go read the definitions for hetero-sexual or bi-sexual and show me where it says age eiher!

What I specifically advised you and you have deliberately ignored and continue to refuse to acknowledge is that having sex with someone of the same gender who is a child is NOT homo-sexual behaviour. You think it is because in your definition if the sex of the child is the same the pedophile becomes a homo-sexual. You are wrong. You have been explained why the medical community does not define homo-sexuality as having sex with children but you persist in using this prejudice and incorrect slur against gays.

I repeat again, a man who has sex with a girl or a man who has sex with a boy is NEITHER straight or gay and you are using the terms incorrectly precisely because you feel being gay is evil and is the same as peophilia otherwise you wouldn't keep using the terms interchangeably.

For those of us who do not engage in Christianity to preach about gays being evil, we use the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, edition IV.

Under this diagnostic manual it is pedophilia is clearly defined and it makes clear that engaging in sex with children is pedophilia it does NOT refer to it as homo-sexuality nor does anyone who does not have your prejudice use the term homo-sexual or hetero-sexual to define the sexual activity of pedophiles.

"These Christian groups are giving an objective look at some data. There was no "hate" (to my knowledge) in the source I quoted. Quoting numbers presented by a certain group in itself is not un-"Christian like"."

The hate is blatant and no different then yours. Don't come on this forum and tell me you are a Christian and then in the same breath define gays as sinful and not expect me to say anything. You are using your

interpretation of Christianity to define gays as sinful and that is hateful.

"I'll admit that I am Christian, but you are using a personal attack (refering to religion) by your nonsensical comment. "

I never attacked you personally but I sure as hell atack you when you use Christianity to define gays as sinful or when you make such idiotic comments that if someone engages in one same sex act they are sinful and a homo-sexual.

"I pray for whoever I please, and if I pray for a homosexual, I make the same prayer I make for straight people; that God's will be done."

Oh isn't that Christian of you! You pray to God that the sinful gays will be saved! Talk about someone who hides behind their religion to couch their hatred!!!!!You think because you pray to God that makes you unhateful? The fact that you believe it is your right to morally judge people as sinful and classiy them as such make syou hateful only you think because you call yourself Catholic, its o.k.

" I just said that there is an existing correlation (as weak as it may be, gays are still more likely to be pedophiles than straights)."

You din't just say. You continue to repeat pedophiles are gays after being shown the statistics, and given reference to the studies and after being told to go to the psychiatic manual classification and get the terms straight. (excuse the pun)

"My point for this thread is that homosexuality is not normal"

And my point is who do you think you are defining what is or is not normal? That is your personal opinion only. How would you like it if I stated Catholics are abnormal and I pray every night that all of you are saved and forgiven for your sins? Get real.

I think what has happened is this debate has evolved to another level and one where you are simply stating personal, subjective, remarks that have nothing to do with pedophiles and gays and everything to do with your need to refer to homo-sexual behaviour and pedophile behaviour as being the same.

I will say it one last time. A man who has sex with a child of the same sex is NOT a homo-sexual and your use of the word homo-sexual is ignorant. The fact that his victim of the same sex doesn't make it homo-sexual it makes it same sex. If you want to blur the definition to suit your prejudice then that is absolutely no different then me saying all Catholics are evil and engage in hatred against gays because you do.

If you feel I am personally attacking you think again. I could care less who you are, what you think and who and what you pray to and for. However I most certainly challenge anyone coming on these posts engaing in the gays are pedophiles stereotype, denying he said it, saying it again, then hiding behind his religion to make it sound all nice and brotherly.

Its no wonder the Catholic Church can't deal with its homo-sexual priests and then its pedophile priests if you are any indication of the confusion its followers are under.

[sharkman]

Here's a thought. Historically speaking, how many societies or empires or cultures in history viewed homosexuality as a normal healthy practice? I'm afraid I only know of one, maybe others could interject some. Near the end, the Roman Empire did, and it didn't last too long after that. Is that the norm (when an empire or country going under within a generation of accepting it as normal) or are there countries that grew with this teaching? Just wondering, it's not something that was kept track of very well.

[gc1765]

Here's a thought. Historically speaking, how many societies or empires or cultures in history viewed homosexuality as a normal healthy practice?

What difference does that make? How many societies viewed slavery as an acceptable practice vs. societies who viewed it as wrong?

[sharkman]

Oh yeah, I thought of another one. Sodom and Gomarroh(sp?) apparently came to be totally accepting of gays.

The reason I'm curious is I'd like to see if cultures who accepted gay practice as normal thrived or not. Because it's a litmus test of sorts on a moral level. Among religions, it's a symptom of absolute moral decline, and I was curious to see what history showed.

Canada, who has accepted gay practices, is facing interesting times. Our baby boom generation is about to retire, and we have no workforce to replace them. Our own population has been unwilling to have children, and aborting many of the ones we do. Therefore we are bringing in immigrants in a strategy to replace them, but the huge numbers will affect a paradigm shift in Canadian culture. Will these immigrants, who are notable in their cultural distaste for gays(India, Pakistan, China, Philipines, etc.), change our direction through voting blocks, or will we change them and continue down whatever path we are going.

It's interesting to note that apparently Quebec is very picky about this as they don't want their culture changed, but Canada basically shrugs its shoulders.

[Rue]

"The reason I'm curious is I'd like to see if cultures who accepted gay practice as normal thrived or not. Because it's a litmus test of sorts on a moral level. Among religions, it's a symptom of absolute moral decline, and I was curious to see what history showed."

Well Sharky go knock yourself out. You can enroll at York University in Feminist Studies. There are also sexologists and anthropologists who study how different cultures handled homo-sexuality. I am suprised you had no clue Socrates was a pederast and its because of his preference for young boys we get this confusion that when a man wants to have sex with a boy he's gay. Gymnos the word for gymnasium I believe means same sex. Surely you must have known in ancient Greece homo-sexuality and pedophilia were openly advocated?

Surely you heard that in aboriginal cultures gays were simply referred to as two-spirited people and left alone?

What we do know is every culture, every society has had gays and how societities have treated gays depends on the prevalent cultural values. We know in the Western Judeao-Christian and Muslim world, homo-sexuality was considered evil and a sin. Leviticus talks of stoning gays. Then again I never did understand what Christians meant by turning the other cheek. In Japan and Bhuddist culture there was tolerance of it. In many Pacific Island countries it was tolerated -then again in many of those same cultures so was incest and that's why Christian missionaries felt it their mission to save them.

If you are worried that by tolerating gays we will destroy society well all would say back is do you really think calling gays sinful and sick and criminalizing them or depicting them as evil will make your society stronger and better? Do you really think a world without Elton John would be a better place? Excuse me but this kind of consideration quickly becomes absurd. All I would say is a world without gays would mean if nothing else, horrible fashion and a huge talent drain in Hollywood. (sorry we need humour if this is where we are headed) I mean imagine a world with no Broadway plays or people who know how to design their homes and match colours. O.k. I will stop. I am trying to be tongue in cheek again.

I wouldn't worry about Canada crumbling because a small percentage of its population like screwing the same sex.

If you really are worried about lesbians taking all the women away and you'll have no one to screw, don't worry-I will call KD Lang and tell her to cool it but from what I hear Angelina Jolie still prefers women so don't get fooled by her faking it with you if and when that happens.

Besides Paris Hilton is always available to any man.

[sharkman]

I was not curious as to gays in history, I know there are many. What I'm talking about is gays being accepted in cultures historically. Now the problem in objectively studying this is the recent attempt to rewrite history. All sorts of historical figures have been outed on the weakest evidence possible. There was even an attempt to say that Alexander the great was gay, like thousands of years after the fact they can actually PROVE it.

But all that is besides the point. I'm wondering about ACTUAL cultures, not mere individuals. There seems to be few in history.

What's this, tell me why you have pull with KD and Ellen. On second thought, maybe that would be too much info!

[Rue]

"What's this, tell me why you have pull with KD and Ellen. On second thought, maybe that would be too much info!"

Er I am not sure if the word "pull" is appropriate. You might get reported. I actually met KD once. She had like 20 women fighting to be with her. I don't get it. This was awhile back. She was thinner then but mind you still looked like Elvis Presley without the sideburns. I said to her "man you vegetarians are popular" and she said " yep you gotta know what to eat ".

Let's just leave it at that cuz I don't want to be reported but its a true story.

[M.Dancer]

"What's this, tell me why you have pull with KD and Ellen. On second thought, maybe that would be too much info!"

Er I am not sure if the word "pull" is appropriate. You might get reported. I actually met KD once. She had like 20 women fighting to be with her. I don't get it. This was awhile back. She was thinner then but mind you still looked like Elvis Presley without the sideburns. I said to her "man you vegetarians are popular" and she said " yep you gotta know what to eat ".

Let's just leave it at that cuz I don't want to be reported but its a true story.

Why on earth would that be reportable? Some of my best friends prefer sex with woman.....