Muslim leader advocates execution of Gays

[betsy]

The "conundrum" only exists in your head. Any rational person, whether of left or right politically minded, can understand the difference between a whacko saying idiotic things and the general group of people the whacko happens to belong to.

But some of these whackos hold positions that could sway and incite the general group of people into becoming whackos.

Just the thought of spending eternity with 72 virgins could turn a young man into whacko!

[myata]

But some of these whackos hold positions that could sway and incite the general group of people into becoming whackos.

Just the thought of spending eternity with 72 virgins could turn a young man into whacko!

Are you speaking of yourself? BTW the cleric who made the comments has been suspended by his mosque. That's a lot stronger and infinitely quicker action than Catholic's church dealing with pedofile priests.

[betsy]

But some of these whackos hold positions that could sway and incite the general group of people into becoming whackos.

Just the thought of spending eternity with 72 virgins could turn a young man into whacko!

Are you speaking of yourself? BTW the cleric who made the comments has been suspended by his mosque. That's a lot stronger and infinitely quicker action than Catholic's church dealing with pedofile priests.

Being downright rude does not validate your argument....get a grip!

You hold up the suspension of ONE imam for inciting violence against one particular group and crow: "See?"

I am speaking of the broader picture. How many imams are scatttered all over the world poisoning and manipulating minds through the faith and the position they hold? We know that they exist! They don't hide it.

[betsy]

Any rational person, whether of left or right politically minded, can understand the difference between a whacko saying idiotic things and the general group of people the whacko happens to belong to.

Just like Lepine?

Was that your argument over Lepine when he shot several women in Montreal....he's just an isolated whacko?

Somehow, I doubt it. His slaughter had been held up annually as a symbol of rampant violence against women in society.

AND HE WAS ONE ISOLATED CASE.

[scribblet]

Being downright rude does not validate your argument....get a grip!

You hold up the suspension of ONE imam for inciting violence against one particular group and crow: "See?"

I am speaking of the broader picture. How many imams are scatttered all over the world poisoning and manipulating minds through the faith and the position they hold? We know that they exist! They don't hide it.

That I think is the question, I've read that only about 10% of Muslims are of the radical variety, but 10% is one he.. of a lot.

[betsy]

The "conundrum" only exists in your head. Any rational person, whether of left or right politically minded, can understand the difference between a whacko saying idiotic things and the general group of people the whacko happens to belong to.

I have 4 cats. One of them is a terror. She attacks even our biggest dog.

The other three are all passive, little angels.

Since she is the only one among all four to behave in this whacko manner, I then conclude that it is an individual thing.

If, however, all four of them behave as such....then I would assume it is a cat-thing.

When you have one Imam spewing hate and damnation, I guess it fair to assume he is one whacko.

But when you have Imams worldwide, spewing vitriol...it becomes an Imam-thing.

When they're teaching their already-violence loving students to follow in their ideological-religious-footsteps...it becomes a problem now and for the future.

"The idea is to protect all citizens from religious fanatics who preach hate," said Nazir Ahmed , 47, a member of the House of Lords from Yorkshire who is visiting Washington this week. The measure, he said, would apply to extremist Islamic imams as well as nativist British zealots. Violators would face seven years in prison.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...3002158_pf.html

While Saudi government spends millions to convince Americans that they are friends and allies, Saudi diplomats in Washington are spreading hate against Americans from all creeds Islamic, Jewish and Christian and others. The American people and their elected leaders must respond appropriately to this hate. Organizations involve in hatred must be closed down and their operatives must be asked to leave the US.

This hate is taught to students becoming Imams for the Muslim community in America, who teach it to thousands of Muslim youth in mosques and schools. The result is deadly as we all witnessed on September 11, 2001.

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/CMS/T...19129242002.htm

In April 2004, Verhagen had called for a new law, in which people who threatened democracy, such as imams who called for gays to be killed, could be called to account. He was speaking then following the publication of a book called De weg van the moslim or "The way of the Muslim", on sale in the El Tawheed mosque in Amsterdam, which advocated methods for killing homosexuals. Other books at the mosque claimed women should be circumcised, and following the injunction in the Koran (sura 4: 34) advised that women who lied to their husbands should be scourged. The mosque had caused controversy when one of its clerics had described non-Muslims as "firewood for hell".

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/001913.html

These are just samples I took from the internet in just 2 minutes.

[betsy]

BTW the cleric who made the comments has been suspended by his mosque.

Whoopie! I'm impressed!

But, really...suspension? Only approx 3 months? Even though some Muslim leaders called for his dismissal?

Taking into consideration the state of affairs happening all over the world? When moderate Muslims are trying to do some damage control?

I guess getting caught selling marijuana is far, far, far more serious than that!

"Azerbaijan: Marijuana Mullah Sacked From Mosque

A brief report from Baku Today reports that in the Azerbaijan city of Naftalan, a mosque leader has been arrested for selling marijuana.

The akhund (imam), named as Vidadi Rzayev, (not the Azeri soccer player of the same name) had been removed from his position at the Naftalan mosque last month for "executing his duties poorly." Hmmm...."

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/001914.html

http://www.bakutoday.net/view.php?d=19291

[jbg]

What is the meaning of "mainstream community"?

In what context do you expect condemnation to be made?

When US bombed a family wedding in Iraq, was there a condemnation by the "mainstream Christian community"?

I assume you were responding to my post. The difference is that the US was not targeting "a family wedding in Iraq"> The incident would have been collateral damage, unavoidable in war.

All evidence strongly suggests that Al Quaeda was aiming for the World Trade Center and planned the attacks for a time that the building would be occupied, not for a weekend. Thus, the equities would be quite different.

[myata]

What about when US napalmed villages in Vietnam? Families executed by the troops? Did we see that famous condemnation, by the "mainstream" community? Has anyone, ever seen it? Can you give us, perhaps, some examples to illustrate what you mean?

[myata]

Being downright rude does not validate your argument....get a grip!

Ha-ha, I'm really impressed! You make a bling comment about someone, but are oh so deeply offended when the same is tentatively asked of you? How cute - and pathetic. Just like the rest of your argument (one muslim = all Muslims and so one). Nothing there.

[gc1765]

I have 4 cats. One of them is a terror. She attacks even our biggest dog.

The other three are all passive, little angels.

Since she is the only one among all four to behave in this whacko manner, I then conclude that it is an individual thing.

If, however, all four of them behave as such....then I would assume it is a cat-thing.

When you have one Imam spewing hate and damnation, I guess it fair to assume he is one whacko.

But when you have Imams worldwide, spewing vitriol...it becomes an Imam-thing.

When they're teaching their already-violence loving students to follow in their ideological-religious-footsteps...it becomes a problem now and for the future.

From these first two paragraphs, I thought for a moment that perhaps you see Muslims the same way I do. That is, you realize that there are a few wackos mixed in with a majority of moderates. But your second paragraph disappointed me, as I realized you don't get it. Not all muslims are whackos. Why don't you get out and meet some of these moderates, they might change your opinion. Or, if you can't do that, at least type "muslims condemn terrorism" into google. It will only take a minute, what do you have to loose?

[betsy]

I have 4 cats. One of them is a terror. She attacks even our biggest dog.

The other three are all passive, little angels.

Since she is the only one among all four to behave in this whacko manner, I then conclude that it is an individual thing.

If, however, all four of them behave as such....then I would assume it is a cat-thing.

When you have one Imam spewing hate and damnation, I guess it fair to assume he is one whacko.

But when you have Imams worldwide, spewing vitriol...it becomes an Imam-thing.

When they're teaching their already-violence loving students to follow in their ideological-religious-footsteps...it becomes a problem now and for the future.

From these first two paragraphs, I thought for a moment that perhaps you see Muslims the same way I do. That is, you realize that there are a few wackos mixed in with a majority of moderates. But your second paragraph disappointed me, as I realized you don't get it. Not all muslims are whackos. Why don't you get out and meet some of these moderates, they might change your opinion. Or, if you can't do that, at least type "muslims condemn terrorism" into google. It will only take a minute, what do you have to loose?

It is you, who don't get it. You are responding in the typical knee-jerk reaction...refusing to understand what is being said.

I do not say all Muslims are whackos. Do not put words in my mouth.

Will you read this excerpt from the link that I gave....

"This hate is taught to students becoming Imams for the Muslim community in America, who teach it to thousands of Muslim youth in mosques and schools. The result is deadly as we all witnessed on September 11, 2001."

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/CMS/T...19129242002.htm

That came from the Islamic Supreme Council. They say that hate is being taught to students who are studying to become Imams for the Muslim community in America....who in turn teach it to thousands of Muslim youth in mosques and schools!

Just what is this council?

"The Islamic Supreme Council of America (ISCA) is a non-profit, non-governmental religious organization dedicated to working for the cause of Islam.

ISCA aims to provide practical solutions for American Muslims, based on the traditional Islamic legal rulings of an international advisory board, many of whom are recognized as the highest ranking Islamic scholars in the world. For the first time in America, we have tried to integrate traditional scholarship in resolving contemporary issues affecting the maintenance of Islamic beliefs in a modern, secular society."

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/bin/s...e_about_us.html

The Islamic Supreme Council see the problem. They identified the problem. They acknowledge that there is a problem.

Why can't you?

[gc1765]

It is you, who don't get it. You are responding in the typical knee-jerk reaction...refusing to understand what is being said.

I do not say all Muslims are whackos. Do not put words in my mouth.

Will you read this excerpt from the link that I gave....

You basically said that with your comparison to your cats. Here is your quote again:

If, however, all four of them behave as such....then I would assume it is a cat-thing.

If you are trying to compare muslims/imams to your cats using this analogy, then you are saying all muslims/imams are whackos who are teaching hate. A better analogy would have been your first paragraph, where you mentioned that if one out of four cats is a whacko, that does not make the other three whackos. This is a much better comparison to make. You should use that analogy to see that if some muslims are acting as whackos, that does not make other muslims whackos.

"The Islamic Supreme Council of America (ISCA) is a non-profit, non-governmental religious organization dedicated to working for the cause of Islam.

Thank you for this link, I think it proves my point quite nicely:

ISCA condemns terrorism in all its forms, whether political, cultural, intellectual or

ideological.

? ISCA stresses the common heritage of Islam, Christianity and Judaism through

conferences, seminars, publications, media relations and community outreach efforts.

? ISCA supports peace, wherever it exists, and the precept of “justice for all,” condemning

all violations of human rights.

? ISCA supports the non-proliferation of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, and is

committed to strengthening the values of charity, family, education and public

responsibility in American life.

On September 11, 2001 people around the world were shocked by the worst terrorist attack

ever carried out on American soil. The hijackers not only callously caused catastrophic loss of life,

but also caused irreparable harm to the dignity of Muslims around the world. Unfortunately, the

attackers claimed Islam as their faith, but in reality were adherents to a deviant sect of Islamist

radicals. Their international network of terror spans the globe, wreaking havoc wherever it settles,

including here in the US.

The Islamic Supreme Council see the problem. They identified the problem. They acknowledge that there is a problem.

Why can't you?

It seems that you are the one putting words in my mouth. I never said that teaching hate is not a problem, OF COURSE it is. But unless you can convince me that all muslims are teaching hate, you should not lump them in the same category. You can not assume that being whacko is "an Imam thing" because of the action of a few.

[betsy]

Or, if you can't do that, at least type "muslims condemn terrorism" into google. It will only take a minute, what do you have to loose?

It's right there on the link I gave you!

What do you think the Islamic Council is trying to say?

Would they have voluntarily identified the problem...and criticise it...if they support it?

Anyway, I'll pander to your request and hopefully this makes your day.

"National Muslim Organizations Incite Modern Day Lynch Mob

CAIR’s false allegations create hysteria amongst American Muslims. Death threats, harassment and acts of discrimination ensue

"One of the most duplicitous and effective tactics to destroy a person, which is common in the Washington political jungle, is to take a person’s statements, reverse the meaning, and then attack the person for what they want him to say in order to destroy him."- former government official, ISCA Supporter

(Washington, DC)—In an attempt to censor the viewpoints of moderate Muslims living in America, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) in concert with six other "American" Muslim organizations have unified to stifle the First Amendment rights of Shaykh Hisham Kabbani, chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America (ISCA), and have instigated a modern day Muslim lynch mob.

On February 25, 1999, seven Muslim organizations (see end of release), issued a statement condemning the discussion by Shaykh Kabbani at a State Department Open Forum on Islamic extremism and demanded that he issue an apology and retraction. They deliberately distorted the words and took phrases out of context from the speech, knowing it would incite furor and hatred towards the council and its chairman. In response, many emotionally-charged individuals have issued threatening statements to Shaykh Kabbani and his council members.

The following are excerpts from a few of the written responses received thus far, illustrating the very actions the scholar warned against in his address:

• "YOU ARE ALL ISRAELI AGENTS. WE WILL DESTROY YOU. DIE IN HELL. Beware of your actions….The Anti-Kabbani Coordinating Council is in the process of being formed…." – Irfan Handoo, Kansas City, student and member of ISNA

• I CAN'T BELIEVE THE STATEMENTS IN CAIR..!!! Stay away from the next ISNA or any other Islamic conference!!! If not you will walk away limping if not worse. I swear by Allah..! –from email account [email protected]

• "I WANT TO SEE YOU DEAD…lets just say it’s a result of the recent tide of something that you have such a genuine fear of that you must warn your friends…[about] the extremist students…the last one you’ll ever see" – unsigned but copied to students of the Organization of Arab Students, University of Maryland-College Park

As in Uzbekistan, where Muslim extremists recently killed 200 fellow Muslims, there is a modern day witch hunt taking place throughout the world, including the West. In America, the stage has also been set for the imposition of the tyrannical practices of the extremists, but the actors and tactical approach are different.

"The carefully orchestrated and calculated plot to intimidate Shaykh Kabbani into retracting his statements only goes to prove the unwillingness to tolerate differences of opinion and belief; as well as the extent to which they would go to silence the voice of opposition. These organizations have recklessly endangered the lives of our officers and members by unjustly provoking the community against us. We shall hold them personally responsible for any physical, emotional, or psychological damages that may ensue from their irresponsible behavior. " – ISCA General Secretary, Dr. Hedieh Mirahmadi.

The Islamic Supreme Council of America invites the entire Muslim population, US government officials and media representatives to investigate this civil war and conclude for themselves who is really responsible for endangering the security of Muslims in the US.

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/bin/s...rica030399.html

-----------------------------

So, will you lend a helping hand to the moderate Muslims and acknowledge that along with all of us non-Muslims, they too, have a big problem?

[betsy]

It seems that you are the one putting words in my mouth. I never said that teaching hate is not a problem, OF COURSE it is. But unless you can convince me that all muslims are teaching hate, you should not lump them in the same category. You can not assume that being whacko is "an Imam thing" because of the action of a few.

I am not in the business of convincing people. I think I had given adequate materials from the most reliable source there is.

If you still cannot see it for what it is....then it's no longer my problem. Just because you refuse to see it or do not agree with it, does not mean it's not happening.

[gc1765]

If you still cannot see it for what it is....then it's no longer my problem. Just because you refuse to see it or do not agree with it, does not mean it's not happening.

Stop putting words in my mouth again. I recognize there is a problem with teaching hate. I stated that very clearly in my previous post. I"m not sure if this is intentional on your part or not, but I thought I made that quite clear.

Now, are you willing to admit that not all Imams/Muslims are teaching hate, and therefore do not deserve to be lumped in with the few whackos who are, like you tried to do with your cat analogy??

[betsy]

Now, are you willing to admit that not all Imams/Muslims are teaching hate, and therefore do not deserve to be lumped in with the few whackos who are, like you tried to do with your cat analogy??

It's obvious from the link I gave you where I stand on that.

If you don't like my cat analogy...hey what can I say? You can call the SPCA.

[gc1765]

It's obvious from the link I gave you where I stand on that.

It's not that obvious. Can you please clearly state your position. Specifically:

a) Do you believe all Imams/Mulsims are teaching hate?

if your answer to part a) is no, do you believe that the Imams/Muslims who are not teaching hate deserve to be lumped in with, and criticized for, the actions of the Imams/Muslims who are teaching hate?

[betsy]

It's obvious from the link I gave you where I stand on that.

It's not that obvious. Can you please clearly state your position. Specifically:

a) Do you believe all Imams/Mulsims are teaching hate?

if your answer to part a) is no, do you believe that the Imams/Muslims who are not teaching hate deserve to be lumped in with, and criticized for, the actions of the Imams/Muslims who are teaching hate?

No to both. But I do believe that all Imams that aren't preaching hate should be taking a strong and unequivocal stand against those that are. These men have enormous power over their followers.

It's not only one or 2 involved.....but hundreds worldwide. It is a serious matter.

And I posted the Islamic Council stance to show that not all Imams are preaching hate. That some are in fact, taking a strong stand. But not all. So it's not enough.

We didn't need to assume all Germans are Nazi before we took a stand against Nazism....why are we not willing to take a stand now when the parallels are so obvious.

[jbg]

What about when US napalmed villages in Vietnam? Families executed by the troops? Did we see that famous condemnation, by the "mainstream" community? Has anyone, ever seen it? Can you give us, perhaps, some examples to illustrate what you mean?

Yes. There were highly abundant and vocal demonstrations, some verging on riots, against that process. Or are you conveniently forgetting about that?

[jbg]

Why don't you get out and meet some of these moderates, they might change your opinion. Or, if you can't do that, at least type "muslims condemn terrorism" into google. It will only take a minute, what do you have to loose?

The "moderates" do nothing to make themselves heard. That is the problem. They should realize that the failure of the so-called decent Muslim community to stand up loudly and be counted leads to analogies like the "four cats".

[bradco]

What about when US napalmed villages in Vietnam? Families executed by the troops? Did we see that famous condemnation, by the "mainstream" community? Has anyone, ever seen it? Can you give us, perhaps, some examples to illustrate what you mean?

Yes. There were highly abundant and vocal demonstrations, some verging on riots, against that process. Or are you conveniently forgetting about that?

the current violations of international humanitarian law in Iraq get very little play by mainstream media compared with violations by insurgents.

-numerous attacks on Fallujah were incredibly questionable. Outside of the more rogue non signatory nations such as Israel, North Korea, Iran and the US... most states that have signed and ratified Additional Protocol I of the Geneva convention would consider these actions to be illegal. This is due to the very indiscriminate nature of such attacks. It was made worse by the fact that the US army discriminated on the grounds of sex and age not allowing males between 15 and 45 to leave the city before the attack. The attacks on Fallujah could not be legally justified even as a belligerent reprisal.

-the refusal to count and document Iraqi dead is a violation of international law. (article 16 of the first geneva convention which is binding on the US, UK and Australia as they have all signed) I have personally not heard one mention from any media source about this violation.

-the use of depleted uranium as well as cluster bombs may not have been illegal for the US as non-signatories of additional protocol I but British involvement may be questionable....however such weapon choice is immoral by any civilized standards (these weapons are not chosen out of necessity or because they are highly successful weapons....they are chosen for being relatively cheap. Any civilized morality does not put price tags on innnocent lives)

[jbg]

Outside of the more rogue non signatory nations such as Israel, North Korea, Iran and the US...

While generally I have a high regard for your posts, lumping Israel and the US with NK and Iran is a tad over the top, don't you think?

[gc1765]

No to both. But I do believe that all Imams that aren't preaching hate should be taking a strong and unequivocal stand against those that are. These men have enormous power over their followers.

It's not only one or 2 involved.....but hundreds worldwide. It is a serious matter.

And I posted the Islamic Council stance to show that not all Imams are preaching hate. That some are in fact, taking a strong stand. But not all. So it's not enough.

We didn't need to assume all Germans are Nazi before we took a stand against Nazism....why are we not willing to take a stand now when the parallels are so obvious.

Good. I'm glad that you agree that Muslims should not be blamed for the action of others. I'm also glad that you admit that some are taking a stand. Are you now willing to take back your earlier comments saying that being a whacko teaching hate is "an Imam thing"?

[gc1765]

The "moderates" do nothing to make themselves heard. That is the problem. They should realize that the failure of the so-called decent Muslim community to stand up loudly and be counted leads to analogies like the "four cats".

Please. Do an internet search and you will find tons of examples of moderate Muslims speaking out. This is much more than I would expect from a group that is not guilty of any crimes. A muslim should not be expected to speak out against violence, hate or terrorism any more than you or I. They are not guilty of any crimes and should not be lumped in with others who preach hate just because they both happen to call themselves Muslim. Obviously their views & beliefs are much different than the extremists, just as our views are also much different than the extremists.