Abortion Debate

[White Doors]

Holy cow! wrong again!

In fact, under the charter, it was ruled that governments cannot make people wait for timely service for healthcare and in effect, made private health care legal in Canada.

THAT was a precedent.

strike 3 - you're out!

[geoffrey]

Your both wrong in a few areas.

There are user fees for many health care provisions in Canada. Getting a cast for example... or certain vaccinations. Just take a look on that little chart at the doctor's office.

What about prescription medication, we all have to pay that out of pocket (or out of your private insurer's pocket)?

Health care in Canada is not at all universal and not at all free. First point.

Second, abortions are generally the only procedure that can be provided outside of the public system and still be funded by government money, that is wrong IMO (though MRI's and stuff get it to on occasion).

Sweden has a per visit fee to emergency rooms, a small chunk of change, like $20. It discourages visits for colds and hangnails, saved them millions. Deductables are common in private insurance, why not have them in public insurance too. The cost of an abortion to the individual should be higher than buying birth control. The time of the doctor, nurses and the cost of the equipment is a burden on our system that could be prevented through preventative care, such as using birth control of some sort.

Onto White Door's statement where the SCC ruled that I can pay out of pocket for health care. Your right in that the SCC ruled, but your wrong in what they ruled on.

They didn't say we must pay or can pay for publically provided health care through the public system. The ruling was that I'd be able to get private insurance for publically provided goods. So if I deemed my hip replacement worthy of paying $10k out of pocket, I should be able to do so... it protects my security of person.

It says nothing on the topic of fees in the public system.

[White Doors]

They didn't say we must pay or can pay for publically provided health care through the public system. The ruling was that I'd be able to get private insurance for publically provided goods. So if I deemed my hip replacement worthy of paying $10k out of pocket, I should be able to do so... it protects my security of person.

It says nothing on the topic of fees in the public system

I agree and nor did I say it did that I can see. I may have not been clear. It opened up the distinct possibility of private providers providing healthcare outside of the public system.

fair?

[Melanie_]

The time of the doctor, nurses and the cost of the equipment is a burden on our system that could be prevented through preventative care, such as using birth control of some sort.

You are assuming that people who get pregnant didn't use birth control. Many pregnancies happen when birth control fails. Doctors often neglect to tell women that antibiotics will interfere with their birth control pills; condoms break; dosage requirements change but are not recognized quickly enough; vasectomies are unsuccessful; and of course, there's the rhythm method. There is a myth of sexual irresponsibility that surrounds women who have abortions. For the most part, they are no different from anyone else who has sex on a regular basis - they're just the ones the law of averages caught up with.

[geoffrey]

There is a myth of sexual irresponsibility that surrounds women who have abortions. For the most part, they are no different from anyone else who has sex on a regular basis - they're just the ones the law of averages caught up with.

Do you honestly believe that women that have received abortions are an accurate cross section of the general population?

[Drea]

Do you honestly believe that women that have received abortions are an accurate cross section of the general population?

Why wouldn't they be an accurate cross section of the general population?

Melanie is correct -- women of all income levels, education levels etc have abortions.

[guyser]

Do you honestly believe that women that have received abortions are an accurate cross section of the general population?

Without a doubt.

[Black Dog]

Do you honestly believe that women that have received abortions are an accurate cross section of the general population?

Yeah: why wouldn't they be?

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

Fifty-two percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 19%.[6]

Black women are almost four times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely.[7]

Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic.[8]

Two-thirds of all abortions are among never-married women.[9]

Over 60% of abortions are among women who have had one or more children.[10]

The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women).[11]*

On average, women give four reasons for choosing abortion. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[12]

CONTRACEPTIVE USE

Fifty-four percent of women having abortions used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users reported using their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users reported correct use.[13]

Forty-six percent of women having abortions did not use a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% perceived themselves to be at low risk, 32% had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had unexpected sex and 1% were forced to have sex.[14]

Eight percent of women having abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or less educated.[15]

About half of unintended pregnancies occur among the 11% of women at risk of unintended pregnancy who did not use contraceptives in the month they became pregnant. Most of these women had practiced contraception in the past.[17]

[Charles Anthony]

Thanks for the interesting statistics, BadDog, but please explain how they demonstrate "that women that have received abortions are an accurate cross section of the general population" because according to you, it would seem that 52% of U.S. women are younger than 25 years and black women out-number every other race by 4 times. No?

[Black Dog]

About half of American women have experienced an unintended pregnancy, and at current rates more than one-third will have had an abortion by age 45.

[Charles Anthony]

By following references and foot-notes of BDog's links above -- ignore for the moment that they all link to the same website -- this is what we get:

Contraceptive use is a key predictor of women's recourse to abortion. The very small group of American women who are at risk of experiencing an unintended pregnancy but are not using contraceptives account for almost half of all abortions—46% in 2000. Many of these women did not think they would get pregnant or had concerns about contraceptive methods. The remainder of abortions occur among the much larger group of women who were using contraceptives in the month they became pregnant. Many of these women report difficulty using contraceptives consistently.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/sfaa/texas.html

An accurate cross-section of the general population???

But, we also get this:

About half of unintended pregnancies occur among the 11% of women at risk of unintended pregnancy who did not use contraceptives in the month they became pregnant. Most of these women had practiced contraception in the past.[17]

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

What does this last quote mean????

ALL women who did not use contraceptives are at risk of pregnancy.

[Melanie_]

Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.

If half of all pregnancies are unintended, women who choose to abort are no more sexually irresponsible than those who don't - although I'm not advocating any of us sit in judgment.

The remainder of abortions occur among the much larger group of women who were using contraceptives in the month they became pregnant. Many of these women report difficulty using contraceptives consistently.

My point to Geoffrey was that contraception use isn't a guarantee against pregnancy, and unexpected pregnancies aren't always the result of irresponsible behaviour.

[Charles Anthony]

MeLanie,

when you say "unexpected pregnancies aren't always the result of irresponsible behaviour" everybody can agree with that. Nobody needs statistics to accept that.

However, looking closely at the statistics reported by obviously abortion-friendly researchers, the actual numbers suggest that the people receiving abortions are NOT a cross-section of the general population. When the researchers say "these women report difficulty using contraceptives consistently" at the same time as saying that these "women who were using contraceptives in the month they became pregnant" is a euphemism for saying these women are irresponsible with birth control. What else could it mean??

[Mad_Michael]

You're either pro-life or pro-death.

No surprise the last thread was locked.

[Drea]

However, looking closely at the statistics reported by obviously abortion-friendly researchers, the actual numbers suggest that the people receiving abortions are NOT a cross-section of the general population. When the researchers say "these women report difficulty using contraceptives consistently" at the same time as saying that these "women who were using contraceptives in the month they became pregnant" is a euphemism for saying these women are irresponsible with birth control. What else could it mean??

"What's missing in the report is..

Perhaps the guy had something to do with it?

Maybe he didn't want to use a condom.

Maybe he didn't have any and they went ahead and did it anyway?

Both parties are responsible, no?

Of course there are women who continually forget to take the pill. In their case the quarterly "shot" is an alternative.

There are others, but the shot is administered and therefore can be controlled.

[Catchme]

Why is anyone using abortion statistics from the USA to discuss abortions in Canada?

[Canadian Blue]

I think that Canada's overall rate of abortion's are lower than those of the USA. I assume it's because we have a few more social program's than the US.

Actually, does anyone have the rates of abortion for countries that have legalized abortion, yet are fully functioning social democracies?

I think the pro-life movement should be focusing on trying to find ways to lower the amount of abortion's, while allowing it to remain fully legal, instead of going on this continuous campaign to criminalize abortion, which probably won't have much of an effect in this country. Even if abortion were to be illegal, I'd imagine that the rich would still be able to obtain abortion's, while the poor would end up using back alley abortionists.

[Charles Anthony]

Both parties are responsible, no?

No. I would say that both parties are irresponsible. You are scurrying around the issue of responsibility by changing the subject.

Those statistics on abortion state that half of the abortions are directly from women who are irresponsible with birth control. Period.

I think the pro-life movement should be focusing on trying to find ways to lower the amount of abortion's,

Why bother?

For half of the abortions in the U.S.A., taking a pill is too difficult a task.

[Drea]

Both parties are responsible, no?

No. I would say that both parties are irresponsible. You are scurrying around the issue of responsibility by changing the subject.

I did not change the subject. The subject is being irresponsible with contraception.

And both men AND women are at fault -- both are equally irresponsible when unwanted pregnancy occurs. Just as both are equally responsible when wanted pregnancy occurs.

Those statistics on abortion state that half of the abortions are directly from women who are irresponsible with birth control. Period.

It's the woman's fault. PERIOD?

Gimme a break.

If you choose to stick your equipment (unbagged) into a woman, there is a chance she may become pregnant.

The man HAS TO take at least 50% of the responsibility.

Sheesh women don't get pregnant by masturbating for goodness sake. It takes TWO to make a pregnancy.

And what is your solution?

Being that you won't accept additional education for women by the anti-choice folks...(yet blame all unwanted pregnacies on us).

[Charles Anthony]

And both men AND women are at fault -- both are equally irresponsible when unwanted pregnancy occurs. Just as both are equally responsible when wanted pregnancy occurs.

No, they are not. That is a bad generalization. A woman has more control over whether she gets pregnant than does her copulant sperm-donor.

It's the woman's fault. PERIOD?

Gimme a break.

Those statistics state that to be the case for 50% of the women getting abortions.

If you choose to stick your equipment (unbagged) into a woman, there is a chance she may become pregnant.

The man HAS TO take at least 50% of the responsibility.

That is a different argument worthy of a different thread.

Sheesh women don't get pregnant by masturbating for goodness sake. It takes TWO to make a pregnancy.

Citation?

And what is your solution?

Being that you won't accept additional education for women by the anti-choice folks...(yet blame all unwanted pregnacies on us).

Do not assume what I or anybody else accepts.

The statistics suggest that responsibility is an issue for 50% of the women who get abortions.

[Drea]

I concede -- you are absolutely correct -- Men should never have any input (read responsibility or lack thereof) in decisions regarding contraception, pregnancy and abortion.

I guess in your view men are simply mindless sperm donors who cannot (or will not) control their urges long enough to put on a condom... too bad most men are really good, responsible folks!

And I never knew you had such a hate on for men.... quite suprising really.

[Charles Anthony]

Anybody else have difficulty accepting the fact that women have more control over whether they get pregnant or not than do men following copulation?

[guyser]

A woman has more control over whether she gets pregnant than does her copulant sperm-donor.

Control and responsibility are two different topics. You are correct in that the women does have the end product if she does not exercise proper caution.

But responsibility lies equally with both parties. Since it simply cannot happen without both present , there can be no other deduction.

[Charles Anthony]

But responsibility lies equally with both parties. Since it simply cannot happen without both present , there can be no other deduction.

On an individual basis, not always -- see below. When it comes to evaluating the quoted statistics, that can not be the deduction. Birth control pills and condoms have a much higher than 50% success rate.

The quoted statistics indicate that 50% of the abortions are a result of women not being responsible with their actions.

This article is fresh off the press:

Suit seeks compensation for botched abortion

Child-rearing costs also being sought

A Boston woman has filed a lawsuit alleging that a doctor at Planned Parenthood League of Massachusetts bungled her abortion in April 2004 and that she had no idea she was still pregnant until about six weeks before her daughter was born in December.

---

Dr. Allison Bryant, a physician working for Planned Parenthood at the time, performed the procedure on April 9, 2004, but it "was not done properly, causing the plaintiff to remain pregnant," the complaint said. Bryant then told Raper to see her primary care physician.

On July 16, Raper went to Dr. Benjamin Eleonu of Boston Medical Center. He performed a pelvic exam and found her uterus was normal, the complaint said, even though Raper was 20 weeks pregnant.

---

More than 20 years ago, the medical malpractice lawyer Andrew C. Meyer Jr. said, he represented a woman who won an award of several hundred thousands dollars after she gave birth to her 11th child because a doctor had botched a procedure to sterilize her through tubal ligation.

The Boston Globe

This botched abortion mal-practice suit really does not chalk one up for the responsible women. If you trace back the timing, being 20 weeks pregnant in the middle of July and having a child born in December makes for quite an extended pregnancy. Something does not jive. Maybe the journalist got the dates wrong. Nevertheless, a woman going that long and not knowing she is pregnant is a bit bizarre too. Not much for the personal responsibility factor but still technically possible.

However, if she goes and gets an abortion and it is botched. Who is responsible now?

To top it all off, why does she not give her unwanted child up for adoption? Her lawsuit is for an unwanted birth. This does not help in the personal responsibility factor much at all.

The botched tubal ligation is even more hairy. This woman tells her sperm-donors that she has her tubes tied but then gets pregnant. Who is to blame?

[guyser]

On an individual basis, not always -- see below. When it comes to evaluating the quoted statistics, that can not be the deduction. Birth control pills and condoms have a much higher than 50% success rate.

The quoted statistics indicate that 50% of the abortions are a result of women not being responsible with their actions.

On an individual basis, not always? Umm yeah always.....every single time . And the other stats say that the other 50% of abortions are a result of men not being responsible with their actions

This article is fresh off the press: Suit seeks compensation for botched abortion

Child-rearing costs also being sought yada yada yada

I am not sure how you are attempting to tie this in? I will give it a shot tho. The couple are ultimately responsible, but not to blame. That lies with the Physician who botched the job , strange occurences or timelines aside. It is not rare for a woman to go into labour and not know she was pregnant.

The botched tubal ligation is even more hairy. This woman tells her sperm-donors that she has her tubes tied but then gets pregnant. Who is to blame?

Again, no one is to blame but the Physician.

I took my car in for brake repairs (abortion). They gave me my car back after doing the job (abortion) and I paid for the job. But they forget to put the discs on (left the fetus intact). I crash into another car.(gave birth) Who is to blame?

The mechanic (Doctor)

Who is responsible? Me , as I have to ensure that at all times my car is roadworthy.