Was Brian Mulroney a Crook?

[August1991]

Apparently, it was Marjorie Lebreton who was trying to get Mulroney and Harper to warm up to each other. I heard on a TV interview that Mulroney did not support initial Harper's leadership bid. So it looks like they were not buddy buddy.

Mulroney supported Belinda Stronach in the last Conservative leadership. In that sense, Harper owes nothing to Mulroney. Harper comes from a Reform tradition anyway.

Nevertheless, Brian Mulroney was a remarkable politician and he understands Canada well. Harper, a WASP with an accent, got seats in Quebec and became PM of Canada because Mulroney made it possible.

I still say that if Mulroney had nothing to hide, he'd explain all. Chretien should do the same.

I'm tired of spin. Rene Levesque and Pierre Trudeau never had hotels or pasta businesses. For their beliefs, they would have lived in a garret.

[jdobbin]

Apparently, it was Marjorie Lebreton who was trying to get Mulroney and Harper to warm up to each other. I heard on a TV interview that Mulroney did not support initial Harper's leadership bid. So it looks like they were not buddy buddy.

And yet Harper had this to say about Mulroney.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...486&k=74094

"I am proud to say that our government carries on the legacy of prime minister Mulroney," noted this high-profile fan.

The person praising and pledging to follow this Conservative pariah? Why that would be none other than ... former friend Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

The boycott of Mulroney is certainly taking effect and the media is watching closely.

Just one week ago, Prime Minister Stephen Harper imposed a government-wide Mulroney isolation order until unproven allegations of a cash-for-planes deal are cleared up.

Ottawa organizers, who had promoted the Mulroney salute as a rare opportunity to mingle with the government caucus, confided that 17 Conservative MPs, including Health Minister Tony Clement's office, had backed out or simply not turned up.

The only Conservative of any parliamentary stripe recognized from the podium was former party bagman Senator David Angus. Mulroney loyalists tried without success to cajole a few words of praise from him for the record, but he looked over at me like I was a drill-armed pain-fetish dentist.

[Oleg Bach]

And yet Harper had this to say about Mulroney.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...486&k=74094

The boycott of Mulroney is certainly taking effect and the media is watching closely.

The elite are offering up sacrafical lambs and fall guys like crazy these days - If they can betray Conrad Black - well - big chinned just getting over heart surgery Malroney will be no problem - besides - he has out lived his usefulness as a conservative - plus the conservatives that conserve what is good and traditional are gone and now re-place by neo-cons - or neo-nonconservatives..who are internationalist taking orders from big buisness - Brian - will be eaten - hope he has the sense to hire an anglo lawyer.

- seems Greenspan settled a grudge - the oppression of jewish buisness for over 50 years has it's out come and price..there is a power struggle going on...and dragging Malroney out for a lynching is a trend you will see more of - besides...Brian....drank to much in the old days and made some bad calls - never drunk and dial..or cut a deal for spare change in the amount of 300 thousand - alledgedly absorbed buy him...wonder when the henchmen Peter Newman will work his magic...seems that he has been given the OK by the old boys to down size on behalf of old Bay Street...Brian is an embarrassment.

.much like that hyper vigilant and greedy Richard Chaney - and man it he a piece of work----some one should have fired him and let the good hearted George W do what was natural...and kind - instead - he pushed the poor guy around and had him take the fall...disgrace - is not to strong a word for all these scoundrels.

[sharkman]

Mulroney supported Belinda Stronach in the last Conservative leadership. In that sense, Harper owes nothing to Mulroney. Harper comes from a Reform tradition anyway.

Nevertheless, Brian Mulroney was a remarkable politician and he understands Canada well. Harper, a WASP with an accent, got seats in Quebec and became PM of Canada because Mulroney made it possible.

I still say that if Mulroney had nothing to hide, he'd explain all. Chretien should do the same.

Good points, all this Mulroney thing does is give Dion the Breath of Life, which is a good thing for the Tories. Dion's inevitible demise gets put off for a few months, giving the Tories what is in effect a leaderless party to roll over whenever they need to, plus improved chances of an election with Dion at the helm.

[scribblet]

Good points, all this Mulroney thing does is give Dion the Breath of Life, which is a good thing for the Tories. Dion's inevitible demise gets put off for a few months, giving the Tories what is in effect a leaderless party to roll over whenever they need to, plus improved chances of an election with Dion at the helm.

True, otherwise the opposition doesn't have much else to go on about.

Funny though, Bob Rae doesn't want an "archeological dig", he wants it to get on with it quickly - some Liberals must be getting nervous... - ( not that I think Bob Rae has anything to hide in this)

[Shakeyhands]

Funny though, Bob Rae doesn't want an "archeological dig", he wants it to get on with it quickly

I hadn't heard this, do you have a link that I can check out?

[old_bold&cold]

I hadn't heard this, do you have a link that I can check out?

It was on Question Period the TV show yesterday. When it was said that the public inquirey should cover then all the leaders who had the power to do it and did not. Rae basically went on a quick fillabuster about how it was not needed and wanted and that it was untruthful to say that the government in the first case with this did not have the RCMP investigate anything. He nearly crapped his pants when this was raised and I guess now he almost assuredly made it to be self fore filling.

Edited November 19, 2007 by old_bold&cold

[capricorn]

I hadn't heard this, do you have a link that I can check out?

You can see the interview on the CTV politics site.

http://www.ctv.ca/politics

[Keepitsimple]

Here's what we know:

1) The RCMP knew about the $300,000 payment during the course of their initial Airbus investigation - and yet they closed the file.

2) In spite of any "new" information, the RCMP have declined to re-open the Airbus investigation.

3) The only new information is that Schreiber has said, under oath, that he and Mulroney made a deal two days before he stepped down as PM and that Mulroney accepted a cash payment of $100,000 while he was still a member of Parliament. This, in spite of the fact that he previously said, under oath, that this was not the case. That's the key point - this man has changed his story - under oath - so he has absolutely no credibility.

The only issues are the business decision that was supposedly made before Mulroney stepped down as PM - in which case it's Schreiber's word against Mulroney's - he said, she said......and there can be no resolution except for Schreiber's previous statements/perjury casting his version of events in doubt.

The issue of accepting money while still a stting parliamentarian - well, I think somehow the RCMP will have to "follow the money" and see when it showed up. If Mulroney and his lawyers can show a clear timing and path for the three $100,000 payments, then that would settle that issue - and cast anything else that Schreiber had to say out the window.

Anything else is just noise and partisan whining. Let's follow the money.

[jdobbin]

1) The RCMP knew about the $300,000 payment during the course of their initial Airbus investigation - and yet they closed the file.

2) In spite of any "new" information, the RCMP have declined to re-open the Airbus investigation.

3) The only new information is that Schreiber has said, under oath, that he and Mulroney made a deal two days before he stepped down as PM and that Mulroney accepted a cash payment of $100,000 while he was still a member of Parliament. This, in spite of the fact that he previously said, under oath, that this was not the case. That's the key point - this man has changed his story - under oath - so he has absolutely no credibility.

The only issues are the business decision that was supposedly made before Mulroney stepped down as PM - in which case it's Schreiber's word against Mulroney's - he said, she said......and there can be no resolution except for Schreiber's previous statements/perjury casting his version of events in doubt.

The issue of accepting money while still a stting parliamentarian - well, I think somehow the RCMP will have to "follow the money" and see when it showed up. If Mulroney and his lawyers can show a clear timing and path for the three $100,000 payments, then that would settle that issue - and cast anything else that Schreiber had to say out the window.

Anything else is just noise and partisan whining. Let's follow the money.

Did the RCMP close the file after 2003? The reason I ask is that this is when the allegations of the $300,00 paid out was made. I've never heard the RCMP knew about the money before then. Do you have a citation for that?

By most accounts, there had been no RCMP investigation into Airbus since the 1990s. They only announced last week that they would be reviewing the whole thing.

Edited November 20, 2007 by jdobbin

[Keepitsimple]

Did the RCMP close the file after 2003? The reason I ask is that this is when the allegations of the $300,00 paid out was made. I've never heard the RCMP knew about the money before then. Do you have a citation for that?

By most accounts, there had been no RCMP investigation into Airbus since the 1980s. They only announced last week that they would be reviewing the whole thing.

Here's the latest article by Greg Weston. Apparently, in 2001, the RCMP approached Mulroney to ask him (his lawyers actually) about the $300,000. Here's an excerpt and a Link:

'Silliest thing I have ever done'

$300,000 cash payment to Mulroney no secret. RCMP knew since 2001

By GREG WESTON

So, why was it such a big secret for so long?

Lavoie says it wasn't -- that the RCMP, for instance, have known about the deal for at least six years.

"An RCMP investigator got in touch with Mr. Mulroney's lawyers (in 2001), and the RCMP told them about the $300,000."

Lavoie says he doesn't know what Mulroney's lawyers said about the deal to the RCMP, but "it was not denied," and the matter was not pursued.

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/...pf-4664942.html

Edited November 20, 2007 by Keepitsimple

[Canuck E Stan]

'Silliest thing I have ever done'

$300,000 cash payment to Mulroney no secret. RCMP knew since 2001

By GREG WESTON

The title of Weston's article is misleading, Mulroney did not say "Silliest thing I have ever done"

The article makes references to the former PM's official spokesman, Luc Lavoie who in an interview was asked the question

"Is Brian Mulroney happy that he did what he did by accepting cash from this guy?"

Lavoie answered with

"The answer is, no. He would say, 'It's the silliest thing I have ever done in my life.' But ...it's not illegal."

He "would say".....but didn't

These were Lavoie's words not Mulroney's.

The editor who wrote the headline should get his knuckles rapped.

[Oleg Bach]

Here's the latest article by Greg Weston. Apparently, in 2001, the RCMP approached Mulroney to ask him (his lawyers actually) about the $300,000. Here's an excerpt and a Link:

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/...pf-4664942.html

Dear Brian is a fine man...as is Conrad... and I mean that - if you are going to convict or persecute people doing buisness. Then you had better prosecute every last person in Canada and America that does upscale buisness. Some get a bit sloppy and arrogant..but how can you have one man that is alledgedly crooked..and the other 3000 are not? The are all innocent - this is the nature of buisness. What is distressing is the playing out of old feuds as the one attacked has to grin and bare it - Conrad the victim of a feud...and I am wondering who Brian is being attacked by - for god's sake he's an old man...you would think that the creations of scape goats was for the ancients...it's not proper to bring up air bus now - should have been done when it was fresh - stale evidence is not good evidence and time warps perception and damages documents.

[runningdog]

Dear Brian is a fine man...as is Conrad... and I mean that - if you are going to convict or persecute people doing buisness. Then you had better prosecute every last person in Canada and America that does upscale buisness. Some get a bit sloppy and arrogant..but how can you have one man that is alledgedly crooked..and the other 3000 are not? The are all innocent - this is the nature of buisness. What is distressing is the playing out of old feuds as the one attacked has to grin and bare it - Conrad the victim of a feud...and I am wondering who Brian is being attacked by - for god's sake he's an old man...you would think that the creations of scape goats was for the ancients...it's not proper to bring up air bus now - should have been done when it was fresh - stale evidence is not good evidence and time warps perception and damages documents.

Itr sure didn't stop brian from going after P.E.T. though, did it?

[jdobbin]

Here's the latest article by Greg Weston. Apparently, in 2001, the RCMP approached Mulroney to ask him (his lawyers actually) about the $300,000. Here's an excerpt and a Link:

I guess we'll find out how it was that the RCMP investigation was even looking into the matter. I thought they said they had closed the file in 1997.

Edited November 20, 2007 by jdobbin

[Wild Bill]

I don't think Mulroney was a crook, but it's obvious that vast numbers of my fellow Canadians do! It seems to be human nature that if you don't like someone you'll believe ANYTHING bad about him, without needing any proof. My generation hated Richard Nixon and heaped blame on him for far more than just the Watergate scandal.

Why is Mulroney so hated? I lived through those times and I think I have a viable theory. You have to understand that after the Trudeau era Liberals the country was sick of the same old politics. Mulroney came in like a breath of fresh air and we followed him in droves! He won the two greatest majorities in our history, a fact which constantly seems to be forgotten.

It was only after we knew him for a while that we realized he was just the same as the old boss, only slicker! He was the last of the old-style politicians, being long on blarney and showmanship and short on being honest in fulfilling his promises.

We were hungry for change. We 'Boomers were perhaps the best educated generation ever, with access to quick and detailed knowledge of what our politicians were doing. We didn't want to be just patted on the back, tweaked on the cheek and bamboozled. We wanted to feel our MP's were responding to our wishes and not just making us feel good so they could keep our votes, stay in power and fulfill their own agenda!

When we wised up to Brian there was no way we were going to blame OURSELVES for being so gullible as to vote for more of the same old, same old! No, we blamed it on him and when he bailed leaving Campbell in charge we blamed his entire crew. The Tory party fell apart. Many in the west wanted to try something new with Reform. Quebec went with the new BQ after Mulroney's most trusted lieutenant turned "Traitor", namely Lucien Bouchard.

To this day Mulroney seems genuinely unable to understand why we hate him so much. He did accomplish a lot of great things but it was his failures that still stand out the most to us. We hated the GST because it was imposed while we were in the middle of a painful recession. Every time we paid a visible tax we never thought about how we used to pay invisible ones. We just hated it 'cuz we had just lost our job and couldn't afford to pay it!

Mulroney told us to vote for the Charlottetown Accord in order to keep Canada together and we voted it down. I don't think he ever understood why. To us ordinary folk, it seemed a hard to understand deal with a lot of hidden points that could work out in a fashion we may not have wanted, being sold to us by a guy long on blarney who seemed to say one thing in Quebec and something different in the rest of Canada.

We didn't really understand the damn thing but we just didn't have confidence in the guy trying to sell it to us! I vividly remember how we were being told: "There's no time for you to figure it out! You have to vote yes NOW or the country will fall apart!"

Mulroney is rich enough he never HAD to be a crook! Still, to most of us he'll always be one. He'll be remembered like Robert Preston in "The Music Man", the guy who tried to con a small town, only we wised up to him and tossed him and his crew out. From the biggest majorities ever to the worst rout ever, down to only TWO Tory MP's in Parliament!

Forever more, whatever happens we'll believe the worst of him.

[jbg]

Mulroney is rich enough he never HAD to be a crook! Still, to most of us he'll always be one. He'll be remembered like Robert Preston in "The Music Man", the guy who tried to con a small town, only we wised up to him and tossed him and his crew out. From the biggest majorities ever to the worst rout ever, down to only TWO Tory MP's in Parliament!

Forever more, whatever happens we'll believe the worst of him.

And to further your "Music Man" analogy, he still gave River City hope, and left it a better place, though he was a crook. I'm not a Canadian and know nothing about Canada but I suspect he might have done the same.

[jdobbin]

Why is Mulroney so hated? I lived through those times and I think I have a viable theory. You have to understand that after the Trudeau era Liberals the country was sick of the same old politics. Mulroney came in like a breath of fresh air and we followed him in droves! He won the two greatest majorities in our history, a fact which constantly seems to be forgotten.

It is no mystery why people in Manitoba disliked him: It was called CF-18.

Even in 1988 when he won another majority, Manitobans rejected him in a big way.

And the disappointment in that decision early on in his government was enough to create the dynamics of the Reform party. Right wing supporters will have to ask Stephen Harper why he left the PCs and Mulroney only to come back again in a merger of people and ideas.

[jdobbin]

And to further your "Music Man" analogy, he still gave River City hope, and left it a better place, though he was a crook. I'm not a Canadian and know nothing about Canada but I suspect he might have done the same.

Some say River City in Canada is Winnipeg. His government tried to screw it and all he can say in his book was that it was a communications problem. The CF-18 was a communications problem?

Of course, not knowing anything about Canada, you would not know the visceral dislike of the man by even long time PC supporters in the west for this decision.

Edited November 20, 2007 by jdobbin

[scribblet]

I don't think Mulroney was a crook, but it's obvious that vast numbers of my fellow Canadians do! It seems to be human nature that if you don't like someone you'll believe ANYTHING bad about him, without needing any proof. .....

Mulroney is rich enough he never HAD to be a crook! Still, to most of us he'll always be one. .....

Forever more, whatever happens we'll believe the worst of him.

Good post, I agree, it doesn't matter how many times he's cleared, people will not believe it.

Maybe it was his money, his Gucci shoes or his success, heck he was well thought of abroad, he was an ally of Nelson Mandela, an early supporter of Ethiopian famine victims and at home he negotiated landmark treaties on acid rain and free trade. Maybe it was the GST that did it, but the Liberals lived to reap the benefits of that. Heck he had the best economic record in the last half (or more century) he was awarded the Health Research Foundation's medal of honour in recognition of a significant contribution to health sciences. Maybe he's hated because he put the brakes on Trudeau's runaway spending, but it doesn't matter... he could be cleared from here to kingdom come and people won't believe it.

[jdobbin]

Maybe he's hated because he put the brakes on Trudeau's runaway spending, but it doesn't matter... he could be cleared from here to kingdom come and people won't believe it.

Why did Stephen Harper leave him and the PCs?

[capricorn]

Good post, I agree, it doesn't matter how many times he's cleared, people will not believe it.

Maybe it was his money, his Gucci shoes or his success,

Many Canadians dislike or even hate successful people. Maybe that's why so many of them avoid trying to achieve what successful people have.

[Wild Bill]

Why did Stephen Harper leave him and the PCs?

I think it was more 'Boomer stuff! The CF-18 project that was mentioned involved a maintenance contract deal that was tendered by the gov't. By all the normal rules of gov't tenders it should have gone to a firm in Manitoba. They had the resources, the experience, the expertise and the lowest bid. Mulroney's gov't still awarded it to a firm in Quebec!

This was a standard practise at the time, still used today. Quebec was perpetually unhappy with being part of Canada and whatever government was in power would try to bribe them with such deals to keep them loyal. This had evolved to such a blatant extreme that other parts of Canada were becoming quite bitter. The CF-18 deal was the last straw in Western Canada.

We had had a politico come out of the wilderness called Preston Manning. He preached reforming our Canadian political system to make it more populist and equal to all provinces and citizens, as opposed to the old-fashioned "bring home the pork" style of our incumbent parties. He spoke of a system where party policies came from the grass roots level and the use of plebicites, referenda or whatever for Members of Parliament to take the views of their constituents to Ottawa, instead of the other way around. He formed what was known as the Reform Party (not to be confused with that of Ross Perot) and it was rapidly gaining steam from folks tired of being expected to hammer in all those campaign lawn signs but ignored by party brass. The unfair awarding of the CF-18 (F-18 jet to our American friends) contract sent new membership in Manning's party into warp drive!

Stephen Harper was the Reform Party's philosophical guru and policy wonk. He constantly railed against the patronage politics of Mulroney and also the other parties. Hence the irony of him cozying up to Mulroney today.

Prior to the emergence of the Reform Party Canada had developed vast numbers of disaffected citizens, not happy with any party. Reform was the first real alternative they had ever seen and Man! Did they ever go for it! It quickly all but swept the West and within one electoral term had garnered over a million votes in Ontario, whick with Ontario's population was a significant percentage of the popular vote.

Not only did this gut the support of Mulroney's Conservative Party but the type of people joining Reform were all the folks who worked hard for other party's campaigns. One wag quipped that in effect Reform left the other parties their generals but stole all their privates, corporals and sargeants, the folks that did all the work! The Conservatives found donations were drying up. They were all but wiped out in the next election, down to only TWO seats!

The splitting of the conservative vote left the Liberals without an effective challenger for over a decade. Finally, the Reform Party (which by then had become the Alliance Party) merged with the remnants of the Progressive Conservative Party, which held only a handful of seats in Atlantic Canada.

The interesting turnabout is that while you would think that the larger Alliance Party would have swamped out the tiny PC rump, as the months went on the Reform/Alliance concepts seemed to disappear and the Party began to act as if once again the Mulroneyites held the reins! The populism plank disappeared and Mulroney was openly touted as a "elder statesman" in the party. It really began to look as if they were helping Mulroney to change his image and thus achieve a more favourable reputation in Canada's history books.

Now Mulroney is caught in a scandal from his time years ago and it's iffy how its going to end up!

it would all make for a good movie, except for the fact that most Canadians who watched it would probably throw things at the screen!

[jbg]

Stephen Harper was the Reform Party's philosophical guru and policy wonk. He constantly railed against the patronage politics of Mulroney and also the other parties. Hence the irony of him cozying up to Mulroney today.

**************

The interesting turnabout is that while you would think that the larger Alliance Party would have swamped out the tiny PC rump, as the months went on the Reform/Alliance concepts seemed to disappear and the Party began to act as if once again the Mulroneyites held the reins! The populism plank disappeared and Mulroney was openly touted as a "elder statesman" in the party. It really began to look as if they were helping Mulroney to change his image and thus achieve a more favourable reputation in Canada's history books.

Now Mulroney is caught in a scandal from his time years ago and it's iffy how its going to end up!

The fact is that Harper still has to govern, and to compete in elections. The Prairie Provinces are a very small fulcrum from which to do that. If Canada is to be "reformed" it needs to be done incrementally or it won't happen at all.

Even in the US Ronald Reagan had to act incrementally.

[jdobbin]

The fact is that Harper still has to govern, and to compete in elections. The Prairie Provinces are a very small fulcrum from which to do that.

I'm sure that is what Brian Mulroney thought and after alienating his base over many years, lost the west and then the entire PC party federally.