Cluster bombs continue to kill after ceasefire

[gerryhatrick]

Cluster bombs continue to kill after ceasefire

Updated Fri. Aug. 25 2006 10:02 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

While the guns have gone silent over southern Lebanon amid a tense ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas, civilians continue to die from cluster bombs.

Israel dropped cluster bombs -- anti-personnel weapons that spray bomblets over a wide area - on at least 170 villages in their 34-day offensive, according to Tekimiti Gilbert, operations chief of the UN Mine Action Coordination Centre in Lebanon.

The bomblets that failed to explode are now proving to be dangerous weapons against the civilians who never fled during the conflict, or who are starting to return home.

The UN group is attempting to map the 285 unexploded cluster bomb sites that have so far been identified in southern Lebanon, said Dalya Farran, a spokesperson for the group.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

The irrelevent UN is in there identifying where these bombs are to try and save lives.

This is in the religion and morality forum because the use of WMD's is immoral. Israel should be ashamed as a nation for this action.

[B. Max]

Cluster bombs continue to kill after ceasefire

Updated Fri. Aug. 25 2006 10:02 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

While the guns have gone silent over southern Lebanon amid a tense ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas, civilians continue to die from cluster bombs.

Israel dropped cluster bombs -- anti-personnel weapons that spray bomblets over a wide area - on at least 170 villages in their 34-day offensive, according to Tekimiti Gilbert, operations chief of the UN Mine Action Coordination Centre in Lebanon.

The bomblets that failed to explode are now proving to be dangerous weapons against the civilians who never fled during the conflict, or who are starting to return home.

The UN group is attempting to map the 285 unexploded cluster bomb sites that have so far been identified in southern Lebanon, said Dalya Farran, a spokesperson for the group.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

The irrelevent UN is in there identifying where these bombs are to try and save lives.

This is in the religion and morality forum because the use of WMD's is immoral. Israel should be ashamed as a nation for this action.

A cluster bomb is not a WMD. Israel has nothing to be ashamed of.

[newbie]

A cluster bomb is not a WMD. Israel has nothing to be ashamed of.

Tell that to the kids getting blown up playing in tobacco crops.

[B. Max]

A cluster bomb is not a WMD. Israel has nothing to be ashamed of.

Tell that to the kids getting blown up playing in tobacco crops.

What difference does that make.

[geoffrey]

A cluster bomb is not a WMD. Israel has nothing to be ashamed of.

Tell that to the kids getting blown up playing in tobacco crops.

What difference does that make.

I think the mass destruction qualifer requires the weapon to cause mass destruction.

[Melanie_]

A cluster bomb is not a WMD. Israel has nothing to be ashamed of.

You're saying as long as it doesn't cause MASS destruction its OK. Multiple sites of indiscriminate MODEST destruction are something to be proud of?

[Shady]

A cluster bomb is not a WMD. Israel has nothing to be ashamed of.

You're saying as long as it doesn't cause MASS destruction its OK. Multiple sites of indiscriminate MODEST destruction are something to be proud of?

Strawman. When did he say or even come close to implying that ridiculous premise? Unexploded shells and bombs are still being discovered from WWII. Should those countries be ashamed?

[B. Max]

A cluster bomb is not a WMD. Israel has nothing to be ashamed of.

You're saying as long as it doesn't cause MASS destruction its OK. Multiple sites of indiscriminate MODEST destruction are something to be proud of?

Multiple sites of enemy operations are legitimate targets. It has nothing to do with proud. It is simply a fact of reality.

Are you proud of sounding like an apologist for Hezbollah who fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities that were packed with ball bearings.

[Melanie_]

Multiple sites of enemy operations are legitimate targets. It has nothing to do with proud. It is simply a fact of reality.

Are you proud of sounding like an apologist for Hezbollah who fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities that were packed with ball bearings.

Strawman back. I didn't say anything in defense of Hezbollah - condemning one is not an endorsement of the other.

[margrace]

I am told what a great man Mr. Harper is because he is such a family man. He walks his children to school.

On here it appears that it is okay to kill children. One group of stats that I read says that 230 Lebanese, most of them civilians, had been killed in Israeli attacks. By contrast 25 Israelis had died, 13 of them civilians.

I hear on these forums that some advocate that we are a Chrisian country. In the Bible it says " Even as you have done it unto the least of these thy brethern, you have done it onto me. So how do we justify that it is all right to kill children as long as they are Muslims or in Lebanon they might have been Christians.

[B. Max]

Multiple sites of enemy operations are legitimate targets. It has nothing to do with proud. It is simply a fact of reality.

Are you proud of sounding like an apologist for Hezbollah who fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities that were packed with ball bearings.

Strawman back. I didn't say anything in defense of Hezbollah - condemning one is not an endorsement of the other.

Why would you condemn Israel for defending its self. I don't buy the fence sitting arguement.

[B. Max]

Multiple sites of enemy operations are legitimate targets. It has nothing to do with proud. It is simply a fact of reality.

Are you proud of sounding like an apologist for Hezbollah who fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities that were packed with ball bearings.

Strawman back. I didn't say anything in defense of Hezbollah - condemning one is not an endorsement of the other.

Why would you condemn Israel for defending its self. I don't buy the fence sitting argument.

[B. Max]

I hear on these forums that some advocate that we are a Chrisian country. In the Bible it says " Even as you have done it unto the least of these thy brethern, you have done it onto me. So how do we justify that it is all right to kill children as long as they are Muslims or in Lebanon they might have been Christians.

An excellent question for those who advocate abortion.

However, so as to not take your post out of context or intent.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2000.

Ecclesiastes

OR, THE PREACHER

3

A Time for Everything

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 a time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

[Melanie_]

Why would you condemn Israel for defending its self. I don't buy the fence sitting arguement.

Israel dropped cluster bombs -- anti-personnel weapons that spray bomblets over a wide area - on at least 170 villages in their 34-day offensive, according to Tekimiti Gilbert, operations chief of the UN Mine Action Coordination Centre in Lebanon.

The bomblets that failed to explode are now proving to be dangerous weapons against the civilians who never fled during the conflict, or who are starting to return home.

This isn't Isreal defending itself. It is placing Lebanese civilians at risk, regardless of their affiliation. Isreal has every right to defend itself with reasonable means, but this to me seems unreasonable.

[B. Max]

.

This isn't Isreal defending itself. It is placing Lebanese civilians at risk, regardless of their affiliation. Isreal has every right to defend itself with reasonable means, but this to me seems unreasonable.

Fortunately for Israel it's not your call.

[Melanie_]

Fortunately for Israel it's not your call.

I'm just an armchair quarterback.

[yam]

I hear on these forums that some advocate that we are a Chrisian country. In the Bible it says " Even as you have done it unto the least of these thy brethern, you have done it onto me. So how do we justify that it is all right to kill children as long as they are Muslims or in Lebanon they might have been Christians.

An excellent question for those who advocate abortion.

However, so as to not take your post out of context or intent.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2000.

Ecclesiastes

OR, THE PREACHER

3

A Time for Everything

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 a time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

yes indeed!

This piece can justify the murder of everybody on this planet let alone infants.

Just do what you want when the time feels appropriate.

We can be quite fickle here too since it does not even speak of justifying ones actions - great

I think this actually is George Bush's manifesto.

[Black Dog]

U.S. investigates Israeli use of cluster bombs

Apparently, the sale of cluster bombs was conditional on Israel using them only against military targets in the open, away from civilian areas. Not that the U.S. has any moral high ground in that regard...

[Charles Anthony]

Apparently, the sale of cluster bombs was conditional on Israel using them only against military targets in the open, away from civilian areas. Not that the U.S. has any moral high ground in that regard...

That is such a bizarre condition to make. The point of the cluster bomb is to detonate in the future.

Are we supposed to NEVER have civilians step foot on land that was once a battle ground???

[Wilber]

Fortunately for Israel it's not your call.

I'm just an armchair quarterback.

All of us who have never had to live in fear of being attacked are armchair quarterbacks, who when it gets down to the nitty gritty, really don't know what we are talking about.

[bradco]

.

This isn't Isreal defending itself. It is placing Lebanese civilians at risk, regardless of their affiliation. Isreal has every right to defend itself with reasonable means, but this to me seems unreasonable.

Fortunately for Israel it's not your call.

So you would argue that the use of cluster bombs was a necessary policy choice to defend themselves? I would like to see you justify that....

background on cluster bombs from http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/2805...weapons09.html:

The failure rate for cluster weapons is between 5 percent and 30 percent. Failure to explode on impact doesn't mean they are harmless. On the contrary, they may explode with the slightest touch by a child or an innocent passerby. What makes them even more dangerous is that they become more unstable with each passing year, according to bomb-disposal experts working in Laos.

Human Rights Watch said it has not found any evidence that Hezbollah is using cluster munitions.

Currently, no treaty specifically regulates cluster munitions. However, Additional Protocol I of 1977 to the Geneva Conventions has some internationally accepted legal standards to assess the problems caused by those weapons. Although that protocol recognizes the inevitability of some civilian deaths, it also says states cannot legally target civilians or engage in indiscriminate attacks.

Cluster munitions have the potential to be indiscriminate because they cannot be precisely targeted. In that regard, Article 51 (4) ( specifically prohibits attacks "which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective." Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, states, "Cluster munitions are unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians, and should never be used in populated areas."

[Remiel]

According to an article I am reading now, 83 people have been killed by cluster submunitions since the ceasefire took affect.

The use of cluster munitions was not self-defense. They were used by the IDF *only* in the three days leading up to the ceasefire. Thus, they intentional used weapons so that Lebanese would be suffering from them for a long time to come.

If there was only one thing the IDF did during the conflict that could not be justified, this would be it.

[M.Dancer]

This is in the religion and morality forum because the use of WMD's is immoral. Israel should be ashamed as a nation for this action.

Let us know when WMD are used so I can join in your mock outrage.......

meanwhile, bombs still kill in France, 90 years later.......

[M.Dancer]

That is such a bizarre condition to make. The point of the cluster bomb is to detonate in the future.

No it is not. Some bomblets fail to detonate. It is a dispersed anti personalle weapon to be used against soft skinned vehicles and troops. They are even clearly marked so that if they don't explode, they can be spotted and made safe.

[Remiel]

How much effort do you suspose it takes to find and safely remove 100,000 bomblets? And in the meantime, there is only one choice. Don't harvest what sparse resources there are and risk death, or slowly starve.

Now tell me, how many unexploded katyushas are there scattered around Israel?

Also, you bring up World War II. Don't even pretend that these two conflicts have anything in common militarily. World War II was all or nothing, a desperate, brutal war. Many, many weapons were developed, tested and employed, by both sides. As Black Dog has pointed out many times, Israel was not under threat of their country being demolished in this conflict. Yes, they had to do something, but it has been pointed out by many people that carpet bombing probably wasn't a particularly great solution. If Hezbollah had actually being doing something as dangerous as spreading cluster munitions all over northern Israel, there probably wouldn't be any Lebanon left at this point.