Gay priests tie the civil knot

[Guest Warwick Green]

Same-sex partners stir up religious conflict

A priest who was at the centre of a furore over homosexuality in the Church of England has entered a civil partnership with his long-term partner, another male priest, gay activists said yesterday.

Conservatives in the Church of England reacted to the news with dismay and said it would aggravate the row over homosexuality in the Anglican Communion, the loose federation of Anglican churches worldwide.

Jeffrey John, dean of St. Albans, entered into the civil partnership with Grant Hollings, a Church of England chaplain, in a ceremony at a register office in southern England last week, the activists told Reuters.

Britain introduced partnerships for same-sex couples last December, with the same legal rights as heterosexual marriage. They are widely referred to as "gay marriages" although the law does not call them that....

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...df-f1aad4338520

[andib]

Same-sex marriage issues have always stirred up conflict, and there would really be no way to avoid that, not for many years anyway. The fact that both the men are priests, wouldn't that have stirred up more conflict? Using that as proof their religion was bogus, that is if they were catholic or christian. Of course, the issue is always same-sex.

[Charles Anthony]

Does the Church of England have a policy on how to treat heterosexual priests who commit fornication?

[jdobbin]

Does the Church of England have a policy on how to treat heterosexual priests who commit fornication?

Move them to another parish?

[gc1765]

Kudos to them for doing what they want, regardless of what anyone else says.

[Charles Anthony]

Kudos to them for doing what they want, regardless of what anyone else says.

Not if the Church of England considers fornication a sin among heterosexuals.

[sharkman]

Kudos to them for doing what they want, regardless of what anyone else says.

Yah, uh, what about what God says. You know, the one their church is based on? I love it when people pick and choose which stuff they'll follow in the bible and which they decide to ignore. Specially when they are priests for crying out loud.

[gc1765]

Kudos to them for doing what they want, regardless of what anyone else says.

Yah, uh, what about what God says. You know, the one their church is based on? I love it when people pick and choose which stuff they'll follow in the bible and which they decide to ignore. Specially when they are priests for crying out loud.

Are you a Christian? Do you believe everything the bible says? Do you think homosexuals should be killed? " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Leviticus 20:13

Should anyone who blasphemies be stoned to death? "anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death" Leviticus 24:16

Or maybe stone to death a stubborn & rebellious son? "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death" Deuteronomy 21:18-21

I could go on and on but I wont. Virtually everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe, I doubt there are many, if any, people who believe every word of the bible. The examples above are just a few reasons why.

So if these priests want to "tie the civil knot", I say kudos to them for standing up for what they believe in, even if it is not popular. Only God can judge their actions, not others in the Church of England.

[betsy]

Only God can judge their actions, not others in the Church of England.

Only God can make the final judgment.

But the Church can judge whether the action goes against their faith or belief.

Should the Church sway to the music of the times....even though it means losing a huge chunk of the flock? Take the easy way out by conforming to what the people wants instead of what the Church thinks GOD wants?

Priests or Ministers are only human....and yet make such convenient scapegoats used by those who wish to undermine the Chruch. Who doesn't sin?

Forgiveness is one thing. Succumbing to manipulations to change what is considered the words of God, and one's belief and faith is quite another.

From a religious point of view....this could be posed as a challenge to those who vow to speak in God's name. A trial. A test in the face of temptation. Just like Christ facing the temptation of Satan in the desert.

The Church of England...and all Christian churches under siege, should make a stand.

[betsy]

If I am a member of the Church of England, should I continue to listen to and follow these two priests?

And if I am in these two priests' shoes....do we have to not only go against the Lord's teachings, but also to play devil's advocate and pit Christians against Christians and cause the house of God divided?

Should we compound it all the more with pride....luring and confusing more of God's sheep to be lost?

Being priests, do we not know of good and evil? Of devils and Satan?

Do we not pause to think whose will it is that had prevailed....and who silently cheers?

Should we not then just quietly leave the Church and humbly place our souls' fates in God's hands?

[Charles Anthony]

But the Church can judge whether the action goes against their faith or belief.

It will be interesting to see if the Church of England treats them the same as it would treat a heterosexual priest who commits fornication.

[jdobbin]

Are you a Christian? Do you believe everything the bible says? Do you think homosexuals should be killed? " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Leviticus 20:13

Should anyone who blasphemies be stoned to death? "anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death" Leviticus 24:16

Or maybe stone to death a stubborn & rebellious son? "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death" Deuteronomy 21:18-21

I could go on and on but I wont. Virtually everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe, I doubt there are many, if any, people who believe every word of the bible. The examples above are just a few reasons why.

So if these priests want to "tie the civil knot", I say kudos to them for standing up for what they believe in, even if it is not popular. Only God can judge their actions, not others in the Church of England.

How many Christians in Canada and the United States are practising this type of Christianity?

Good call, qc.

[sharkman]

Kudos to them for doing what they want, regardless of what anyone else says.

Yah, uh, what about what God says. You know, the one their church is based on? I love it when people pick and choose which stuff they'll follow in the bible and which they decide to ignore. Specially when they are priests for crying out loud.

Are you a Christian? Do you believe everything the bible says? Do you think homosexuals should be killed? " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Leviticus 20:13

Should anyone who blasphemies be stoned to death? "anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death" Leviticus 24:16

Or maybe stone to death a stubborn & rebellious son? "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death" Deuteronomy 21:18-21

I could go on and on but I wont. Virtually everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe, I doubt there are many, if any, people who believe every word of the bible. The examples above are just a few reasons why.

So if these priests want to "tie the civil knot", I say kudos to them for standing up for what they believe in, even if it is not popular. Only God can judge their actions, not others in the Church of England.

Yes, it just so happens I am. Are you a christian? Are you gay?

Here is some information for you and those who bring up wacky Old Testament laws. Christianity is not living under the old testament dispensation anymore. When Christ was crucified, it ushered in the new covenant of the new testament. Only a very few don't believe Christ was the Son of God and still follow Old Testament law.

By the way, the New Testament still speaks against homosexuality.

[jdobbin]

Yes, it just so happens I am. Are you a christian? Are you gay?

Here is some information for you and those who bring up wacky Old Testament laws. Christianity is not living under the old testament dispensation anymore. When Christ was crucified, it ushered in the new covenant of the new testament. Only a very few don't believe Christ was the Son of God and still follow Old Testament law.

By the way, the New Testament still speaks against homosexuality.

Some of the passages of the New Testament:

Matt 12:30

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Matt 13:40-42

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 3:36(Jesus speaking)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Luke 19:27(Jesus speaking in a parable)

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

And here's an anti-Jewish one:

Titus 1:10-16

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision(Jews):

Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So if the bible speaks against homosexuality and Jews, should Christians be against both?

[BubberMiley]

Perhaps he's only a christian when it supports being self-righteous against groups of people he doesn't like. If he didn't like jews, then those passages would suit him just fine.

[gc1765]

Only God can judge their actions, not others in the Church of England.

Only God can make the final judgment.

But the Church can judge whether the action goes against their faith or belief.

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:1-2

Should the Church sway to the music of the times....even though it means losing a huge chunk of the flock? Take the easy way out by conforming to what the people wants instead of what the Church thinks GOD wants?

Priests or Ministers are only human....and yet make such convenient scapegoats used by those who wish to undermine the Chruch. Who doesn't sin?

Forgiveness is one thing. Succumbing to manipulations to change what is considered the words of God, and one's belief and faith is quite another.

From a religious point of view....this could be posed as a challenge to those who vow to speak in God's name. A trial. A test in the face of temptation. Just like Christ facing the temptation of Satan in the desert.

The Church of England...and all Christian churches under siege, should make a stand.

See my post above, and you'll see how the church has swayed with the times. How many people are being stoned to death in Canada?

[gc1765]

Yes, it just so happens I am. Are you a christian? Are you gay?

I'm one of those "pick and choose" Christians. I believe in the fundamentals of forgiveness, charity etc. but I do not take the bible literally. Does that make me Christian? I don't know. And no, I am not gay.

Here is some information for you and those who bring up wacky Old Testament laws. Christianity is not living under the old testament dispensation anymore. When Christ was crucified, it ushered in the new covenant of the new testament. Only a very few don't believe Christ was the Son of God and still follow Old Testament law.

By the way, the New Testament still speaks against homosexuality.

Christianity is based on both the Old Testament and the New Testament. You can not "pick and choose" what you believe. The Old Testament is still, supposedly, the word of God. When Jesus came he specifically removed certain aspects of the Old Testament, like the Sabbath & what food can be eaten...but the rest still applies. If you are a Christian, do you not still believe that we came from Adam & Eve? Isn't that what most Christians believe? So why is it ok to pick and choose verses from say Genesis, but not from other books of the bible?

And by the way, how many people live by the word of the New Testament. Do you believe in punishment? Sorry, I guess you can't since if you believe everything the New Testament says then you would let God cast the first stone.

P.S. Can you show me exactly what Jesus said about homosexuality? It's been a while since I've read the bible so I can't remember.

[sharkman]

Yes, it just so happens I am. Are you a christian? Are you gay?

I'm one of those "pick and choose" Christians. I believe in the fundamentals of forgiveness, charity etc. but I do not take the bible literally. Does that make me Christian? I don't know. And no, I am not gay.

Here is some information for you and those who bring up wacky Old Testament laws. Christianity is not living under the old testament dispensation anymore. When Christ was crucified, it ushered in the new covenant of the new testament. Only a very few don't believe Christ was the Son of God and still follow Old Testament law.

By the way, the New Testament still speaks against homosexuality.

Christianity is based on both the Old Testament and the New Testament. You can not "pick and choose" what you believe. The Old Testament is still, supposedly, the word of God. When Jesus came he specifically removed certain aspects of the Old Testament, like the Sabbath & what food can be eaten...but the rest still applies. If you are a Christian, do you not still believe that we came from Adam & Eve? Isn't that what most Christians believe? So why is it ok to pick and choose verses from say Genesis, but not from other books of the bible?

And by the way, how many people live by the word of the New Testament. Do you believe in punishment? Sorry, I guess you can't since if you believe everything the New Testament says then you would let God cast the first stone.

P.S. Can you show me exactly what Jesus said about homosexuality? It's been a while since I've read the bible so I can't remember.

Yes, the OT is still the word of God, but He 'passed' a new covenant. So the laws of the OT no longer apply. Thats why we no longer sacrifice animals, for instance.

As far as punishment goes, Jesus himself took a whip and drove the money changers out of the temple. We are to judge people's actions, but not their salvation. I believe it is Peter who lays out how to treat someone who is openly living in a sinful lifestyle in the church. You go to that person to correct them first in private(Of course only those who really love would be chosen to do this). If if the sinful person still persists, they are to be admonished in front of the congregation. If still no change, they must be not allowed to belong to the church. How's that for casting stones.

I suggest you pick up the Bible once in a while, if you approach it with an open heart, God will show you what you need to know.

[BubberMiley]

Like how to open your heart to find the right passage to justify casting stones.

[gc1765]

As far as punishment goes, Jesus himself took a whip and drove the money changers out of the temple. We are to judge people's actions, but not their salvation.

Yes but that was Jesus doing the punishment. As it says in the New Testament, only Jesus/God may punish as they are the only ones without sin. If you believe everything in the New Testament, then you must believe that only Jesus/God may punish people, but I think that goes contrary to what the vast majority of Christians believe.

I believe it is Peter who lays out how to treat someone who is openly living in a sinful lifestyle in the church. You go to that person to correct them first in private(Of course only those who really love would be chosen to do this). If if the sinful person still persists, they are to be admonished in front of the congregation. If still no change, they must be not allowed to belong to the church. How's that for casting stones.

Can you show me the reference in the bible where it says this? Also, can you show me where it says in the New Testament that homosexuality is a sin? Thanks.

[Argus]

Kudos to them for doing what they want, regardless of what anyone else says.

Yes, hopefully we will be able to shift our society to that of Sodom and Gomorrah soon.

What righteous priest wouldn't want that?

[gc1765]

Kudos to them for doing what they want, regardless of what anyone else says.

Yes, hopefully we will be able to shift our society to that of Somom and Gomorrah soon.

What righteous priest wouldn't want that?

You mean Sodom and Gomorrah?

Do you honestly believe that God is going to destroy our society because two priests want to get married? Doesn't this go back to the argument that I was having with sharkman that the laws of the Old Testament are apparently irrelevant?

[jdobbin]

I suggest you pick up the Bible once in a while, if you approach it with an open heart, God will show you what you need to know.

What about this passage from the New Testament?

Titus 1:10-16

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision(Jews):

Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Do you believe that?

[betsy]

But the Church can judge whether the action goes against their faith or belief.

It will be interesting to see if the Church of England treats them the same as it would treat a heterosexual priest who commits fornication.

That's for the Church to decide. Whether we agree with what the Church says or not....it is still considered the rep of God.

If one finds himself at odds with the rules of a church, then why not start their own religion? That's how the Protestant church came to be, if I'm not mistaken.

Or why not join other churches that conformed with the wishes of humans. Some church condone and accept homosexual marriage.

[gc1765]

But the Church can judge whether the action goes against their faith or belief.

It will be interesting to see if the Church of England treats them the same as it would treat a heterosexual priest who commits fornication.

That's for the Church to decide. Whether we agree with what the Church says or not....it is still considered the rep of God.

If one finds himself at odds with the rules of a church, then why not start their own religion? That's how the Protestant church came to be, if I'm not mistaken.

Or why not join other churches that conformed with the wishes of humans. Some church condone and accept homosexual marriage.

Why not just believe what you choose to believe and worship on your own time? Why do you have to join a church?